JB has thrown away far too many assets - needs to be replaced as GM

[Tomatoes11]

19 hours ago, ilduce39 said:

That’s a lot of hindsight and ignoring the age difference between Sutter/Baertschi and guys like Richardson/Vrbata.  The timelines are also wonky - Roussel wasn’t available when we acquired Dorsett.  Add in that Dorsett would likely still be with the club were it not for injury.

 

If your point is that JB could have shuffled the roster without moving any picks, I guess he could have.

 

I think our team is stronger with a healthy Sutter, Baertschi and Dorsett though.  If Pearson sticks with Horvat that also helps to mitigate the Gudbranson cost.  

 

So.. we could have done it without moving picks, but there was some value in some of those moves.  

That’s the whole point. Why are we so impatient about acquiring useless grinders that we give up lottery picks for them? Lol why the hell would a bottom feeding team need a Dorsett right away and couldn’t be patient about it?

 

An impatient GM is a poor GM especially when they are impatient when it comes to spare parts bin parts. 

Edited March 24, 2019 by Tomatoes11

[spook007]

3 minutes ago, Tomatoes11 said:

Are you for real saying that Beagle is the reason they have a cup? Lol they replaced him just fine with, with one of our rejects, as in the machine and gears are operating just as smoothly without Beagle. If that machine can repeat in the next few years is a different story now that it’s older, but it runs fine without beagle obviously. 

 

And yes Dorsett is completely uneccesary when we shouldn’t even be looking at expending assets on role players and supporting cast when our core is not completely in place or designed yet. That’s like buying a computer tower before knowing what the motherboard is. No matter how nice the tower you think it is, I personally don’t see Dorsett as anything remotely worth a 3rd, it’s useless right now.

Totally disagree... no surprise there...

Dorsett was very much worth a third. We had nobody as willing to drop the mitts, while being able to play a little as well. 

A great support for the younger players, who now have to fend for them selves.., He was always first man in and last man out of any scum. And if anybody touched one of our players, he would have his number for later, if he wasn’t on the ice. A third for that is peanuts. 

 

Beagle is a better player than Dowd. I’ve been though this for more than a page with another hater... can’t be bothered to go though it again...,

[CaptKirk888]

On 3/20/2019 at 10:19 AM, ilduce39 said:

Teams piss away “assets” all the time.  Washington trades a 2nd and 3rd round pick in 2015 for Curtis Glencross.  That lack of depth cost them a championship?  They also moved out a 3rd for Mike Weber.  A 2nd for Winnik. A 4th for Tim Gleason. A 6th and two 7ths for Eddie Pasquale.  A first and conditional 2nd plus prospects for Shattenkirk.  A 5th for Graovac.

 

Is anyone whining about assets?

 

I like what Joe did in the other thread and focused on the positives - really, that’s where the emphasis should be.  Washington DID land Oshie and Eller.  Those guys helped. 

 

Dont bother responding with the fact they’re in a different position than us.  In this day and age every team needs young guys to constantly retool their roster.  Moreover, the point is depth picks are often a lateral move at best.  If you think you can add a slightly better player they’re hardly untouchable.

We just got him for free ufa lol

[thrago]

If you put all of your Salary into savings for retirement (picks) trade all your assets House care etc for more picks (for retirement).  How do you live in the now AKA ice an NHL team?  

 

Everything can't be for futures the present also exists.  Putting all in for the present also doesn't work well over the long haul (aka Gillies).  

 

Not sure I explained that well but hope the point comes across there has to be balance in life and same goes for a Hockey team.

[-DLC-]

On 3/23/2019 at 3:21 PM, WHL rocks said:

Wow.. trigger much?

 

Perhaps I want the team not to be the worst team in the league over the past 4 years.  

 

You lose any credibility here.

 

2018-19 Finished 23rd our of 31

2017-18 Finished 26th out of 31

2016-17 Finished 29th out of 30

2015-16 Finished 28th out of 30

 

Not once during the past 4 years were we "the worst team in the league".

 

When people fabricate or, at the very least, exaggerate their point, it's usually because it can't stand on its own.

 

Jim Benning took over at a point when the team was about to/needed to change.  First it was an idea that they could "retool" and then it slid more into a rebuild.  Sometimes you try the path of least resistance then have to go to Plan B.  

 

I feel he's done just fine.

 

 

 

[Solinar]

I can say, it was a whole hell of a lot more fun watching games last year, than it was before that.  And knowing we have some legitimate top talent on the way, and it's spaced out enough so that we can deal with cap crunches over time than all at once, that isn't bad.  The team is looking like it is getting to the point where it can start to cycle players in and out of the organisation without being too much of a problem.  Would love to see more hits on 2nd round and beyond picks in the organisation, but I do see that coming in the process as well. 

[-DLC-]

On 3/23/2019 at 6:36 PM, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Of course it's hindsight. That's how to evaluate past decisions.  I see this stated all the time as if it automatically discredits a point, but when you're reviewing that's exactly what you do.  I mean is that would people state when there boss is going over there quarterly review.....

 

"Well you've made some decisions that didn't turn out and have cost the company a lot of money". 

"Come on boss, that's a lot of hindsight"

 

And on top of that every move good and bad, is using hindsight. "In hindsight EP looks like a better pick than Vilardi" should that discredit JB's decision to make that choice? NO.  

 

I'm not stating those players exactly, i'm just pointing out that these types can be signed in free agency.  All these players are a dime a dozen and the league is filled with similar skill sets.  If you really want to get picky about each years, Derek MacKenzie, Shawn Thornton or heck Darren Archibald or Zack Kassian who was already in our system could have filled that type of role.  I like what Dorsett brought the guy worked his butt off but that's not a rare trait in this league.

 

That's exactly my point and I believe the majority of peoples point.  None of the players we had traded draft picks for,  have amounted to any more impact on our roster than what we could have picked up through free agency, without the loss of valuable rebuilding assets.  

 

 

Stronger than what?  Would our roster be that much better with Sutter and Dorsett vs there UFA counter parts of Beagle and Roussel?  I'm not so sure about that.  

 

Personally I'd rather McCann alone than either,  and that's ignoring the picks we added in.  

 

Sure their was "some" value, but not near as much as the alternative.

Let's extract this part, because it's unproven:

 

"than what we could have picked up through free agency, without the loss of valuable rebuilding assets"

 

We don't know who we could have "picked up" because you don't just "pick".  These are negotiations and players get to decide where they want to go and why.  

 

Players are NOW wanting to come here because we've got some exciting potential superstars in the line up.  Do we give credit for that?

 

But, in the past, players weren't "choosing" this as their destination so you can't just slot them in to the line up.

 

Also:  the players we traded picks argument also doesn't hold water because you just don't know how those picks would have turned out (either).  You're defaulting to "we could have had better" without even knowing if that's true or not.  Picks don't = awesome NHL players.  Many don't pan out. 

 

So you can't really assess picks we never made in a value comparison.

 

Quote

"Well you've made some decisions that didn't turn out and have cost the company a lot of money". 

"Come on boss, that's a lot of hindsight"

Not sure how anyone's cost us a lot of money - that's a moving target.  We're in the top 10 in NHL revenue so I don't know that to be true.   

[jimmyking8888]

You are not the only one who think JB has done just fine.   I think JB has done just fine as well.  The ownership probably thinks JB has done just  fine as well.  Not great just fine enough to keep his job for now.   

[kacholu]

On 3/16/2019 at 1:15 PM, Generational.EP40 said:

1.) not saying to get ride of him entirely, just at the managerial level as he undoubtably has restocked the prospect cupboard for us which can’t be denied

 

2.) should retain some sort of position, preferably something like president or VP of hockey operations to overlook things and continue sharing his expertise when it comes to drafting/prospects

 

3.) so why should he step down / be replaced as GM? Let’s look:

 

 

That’s shocking. We have almost nothing of significance to show for over JB 5 year tenure.

 

 

 

...it’s no surprise we hired a newbie GM at the time. This critical transition phase the organization is in, we can’t be allowing this much trial&error with the scarce assets we have to work with in the first place. 

 

On top of the asset inefficiency, his inexperience as manager has been evident with the signings as well. Overpaying & giving extended years to questionable players, just unnecessary. All it’s done is become dead weight which can’t be moved and will anchor the roster in the years ahead.

 

That manager inexperience? To continue, he hasn’t been able to commit to a plan or vision since day1. A rebuild was clear as day but the R word was never uttered until Linden became president. Prior to that he dodged it like the plague and would never admit it. Thought he could fast track by trading picks in the beginning when those picks could’ve been paying dividends for us right now. Too much flip flopping between ideologies. Remember “meat & potatoes”? That died shortly but then he couldn’t fully let it go either as evident by drafting Virtanen coming off a major surgery...he just couldn’t help himself. Even now, we struck gold with EP. Rebuild was endorsed but now that we got lucky and EP has fast forwarded that timeline, he thinks we can fight for a playoff(WC) spot. The man can’t help himself and begins jumping the gun too easily, can’t stay focused on the mission. 

 

Just far too much indecisiveness and it’s fair to say we’ve seen enough. Let’s get a proven GM who can be relied on to stay the course, not get ahead of himself, and let the nature of the rebuild take place organically while JB overlooks the draft aspect. I think that would be best for all parties. Stack up on maximum assets, get a cap structure going, get rid of bad contracts in this vital transition phase when we will shortly but surely be on the rise. Hypothetically, targeting an Yzerman or someone along those lines as GM+President would be ideal. 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

EDIT

summed up:

 

> JB pro: drafting

> JB cons: everything else about GMing (trades, signings, vision, commitment) 

> get someone who is better than Jimbo at the cons 

> keep Jimbo for the pro(prospects), just in a different/special role AKA I’m not saying cut him loose entirely

I agree with you 100% unfortunately cdc is are following JB blindly and will ignore any criticism 

[-DLC-]

10 minutes ago, kacholu said:

I agree with you 100% unfortunately cdc is are following JB blindly and will ignore any criticism 

The proof's in the puddin'.

 

Are you enjoying this team?  Or crying because of "what could have been"?

 

Does the future look bright?  Or is it clouded, possibly from exhaust fumes from sticking your head out the window and focusing on what's in the mirror behind instead of the road ahead?

 

There's no "blindly" here...it's more of an acceptance that it sounds really easy to pull this roster thing off but it's all done with some uncertainty, leaps of faith and thinking of current needs and wants as well as down the road.  Some here have tunnel vision - like the tank team that sacrifices the team in the here and now for what "could" be.

 

I'm loving this team and the prospect of the future.  Not sure why others are stuck in the past...you're missing some good stuff.

 

"Assets" are only so if they work out that way.  Not all do - so it's important to keep that in mind.  

 

Assets as "picks" are unknowns.  But some here blindly treat them like they were going to be the best thing for the team regardless.  You just don't know how picks will fare when they hit the NHL.  Maybe, maybe not.

[kacholu]

1 minute ago, debluvscanucks said:

The proof's in the puddin'.

 

Are you enjoying this team?  Or crying because of "what could have been"?

 

Does the future look bright?  Or is it clouded, possibly from exhaust fumes from sticking your head out the window and focusing on what's in the mirror behind instead of the road ahead?

 

There's no "blindly" here...it's more of an acceptance that it sounds really easy to pull this roster thing off but it's all done with some uncertainty, leaps of faith and thinking of current needs and wants as well as down the road.  Some here have tunnel vision - like the tank team that sacrifices the team in the here and now for what "could" be.

 

I'm loving this team and the prospect of the future.  Not sure why others are stuck in the past...you're missing some good stuff.

The future could be bright but it's just wishful thinking at the moment. We don't have an identity, we don't have a style of play, we don't have a clear plan. 

 

Right now we have a bunch of random players put into the roster. 

 

We are trying way too hard to make the playoffs but no where do I see anyone planing on making the team a contender. Sure we may get lucky and make the playoffs but that's where the road ends there. 

 

Even if we do become contenders in let's say 2-3 years then we need to pay a ton of money to our core guys. Which is hard to do when most of the cap is tied up with 4th liners and over paid free agents. In that case we will need to shed salary and lose depth IF I have it in the first place. Since, there is no such thing as forward thinking going with management then the team will be broken up before it even gets anywhere. 

[Rob_Zepp]

On 3/16/2019 at 1:15 PM, Generational.EP40 said:

1.) not saying to get ride of him entirely, just at the managerial level as he undoubtably has restocked the prospect cupboard for us which can’t be denied

 

2.) should retain some sort of position, preferably something like president or VP of hockey operations to overlook things and continue sharing his expertise when it comes to drafting/prospects

 

3.) so why should he step down / be replaced as GM? Let’s look:

 

 

That’s shocking. We have almost nothing of significance to show for over JB 5 year tenure.

 

 

 

...it’s no surprise we hired a newbie GM at the time. This critical transition phase the organization is in, we can’t be allowing this much trial&error with the scarce assets we have to work with in the first place. 

 

On top of the asset inefficiency, his inexperience as manager has been evident with the signings as well. Overpaying & giving extended years to questionable players, just unnecessary. All it’s done is become dead weight which can’t be moved and will anchor the roster in the years ahead.

 

That manager inexperience? To continue, he hasn’t been able to commit to a plan or vision since day1. A rebuild was clear as day but the R word was never uttered until Linden became president. Prior to that he dodged it like the plague and would never admit it. Thought he could fast track by trading picks in the beginning when those picks could’ve been paying dividends for us right now. Too much flip flopping between ideologies. Remember “meat & potatoes”? That died shortly but then he couldn’t fully let it go either as evident by drafting Virtanen coming off a major surgery...he just couldn’t help himself. Even now, we struck gold with EP. Rebuild was endorsed but now that we got lucky and EP has fast forwarded that timeline, he thinks we can fight for a playoff(WC) spot. The man can’t help himself and begins jumping the gun too easily, can’t stay focused on the mission. 

 

Just far too much indecisiveness and it’s fair to say we’ve seen enough. Let’s get a proven GM who can be relied on to stay the course, not get ahead of himself, and let the nature of the rebuild take place organically while JB overlooks the draft aspect. I think that would be best for all parties. Stack up on maximum assets, get a cap structure going, get rid of bad contracts in this vital transition phase when we will shortly but surely be on the rise. Hypothetically, targeting an Yzerman or someone along those lines as GM+President would be ideal. 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

EDIT

summed up:

 

> JB pro: drafting

> JB cons: everything else about GMing (trades, signings, vision, commitment) 

> get someone who is better than Jimbo at the cons 

> keep Jimbo for the pro(prospects), just in a different/special role AKA I’m not saying cut him loose entirely

Holy cherry pick Batman.    I could do the same for ANY GM in the NHL and come up with similar....including Yzerman.

 

Some of you "fans" don't deserve the good management you have.    Some of you should become Oiler fans or similar to see what poor management really is all about.

[Solinar]

Baertschi Pettersson Boesser  20-30 goals apiece all over 60 pts if healthy

Pearson Horvat Miller               20-30 goals apiece all over 60 pts if healthy

Sutter Beagle Eriksson             15-20 goals apiece all around 40 pts if healthy

Roussel Gaudette Virtanen       10-15 goals apiece around 20-30 pts if healthy

 

Edler Myers                               15 goals apiece 30-40 pts if health

Hughes Tanev                            well, this is a stretch, but don't think it is impossible to count on 20-30 pts from this pairing

Benn Stecher                             Say it is money to count on this pairing producing 20 pts apiece

 

Markstrom

Demko

 

  Just on goals alone, think it would get us the 5 wins we needed to make the playoffs this year, but going into the coming season, would say that we should be able to count on this team, as presented, to get us 10 more wins than last year.  With the number of one goal games we lost, and with a more balanced scoring approach, it is a reasonable bet.  Demko will provide us more solid goaltending than Nilsson did last year as well.  And hopefully we've seen Markstrom turn the corner in his career and will continue on as he did last year.  If the defense can cut our goals against by 20 or so, and that isn't unreasonable, we should be able to do more than just squeak in.

[24K PureCool]

11 minutes ago, kacholu said:

The future could be bright but it's just wishful thinking at the moment. We don't have an identity, we don't have a style of play, we don't have a clear plan. 

 

Right now we have a bunch of random players put into the roster. 

 

We are trying way too hard to make the playoffs but no where do I see anyone planing on making the team a contender. Sure we may get lucky and make the playoffs but that's where the road ends there. 

 

Even if we do become contenders in let's say 2-3 years then we need to pay a ton of money to our core guys. Which is hard to do when most of the cap is tied up with 4th liners and over paid free agents. In that case we will need to shed salary and lose depth IF I have it in the first place. Since, there is no such thing as forward thinking going with management then the team will be broken up before it even gets anywhere. 

In 2-3 years the 4th line plugs will all have their contract be expired so what is the worry about it now?

 

And tell the playoff dream to AQ. JB is just following his boss's orders. Since we ain't ever winning the lottery, the tank route is not really an option and with JB and Bracket's drafting, there is little difference between the 10th and 20th pick. 

 

That being said, JB needs to improve player development cause right now, we have more talent coming through other places like NCAA than our own farm team.

Edited July 2, 2019 by 24K PureCool

[Rob_Zepp]

3 minutes ago, kacholu said:

We I don't have an identity, we I don't have understand a style of play, we I don't see have a clear plan. 

FIFY.

 

Correction.   To many of us, the plan the Canucks have has been clear, remains clear and is ever closer to being the reality it was projected to be from the first day this management team started.    It takes time to get going with an empty cupboard and a veteran team to turn it all over whilst still playing NHL calibre seasons.    The bottom was hit and the team is coming up the other side - not sure why so hard for some of you to notice

[Solinar]

2 minutes ago, 24K PureCool said:

In 2-3 years the 4th line plugs will all have their contract be expired so what is the worry about it now?

 

And tell the playoff dream to AQ. JB is just following his boss's orders. Since we ain't ever winning the lottery, the tank route is not really an option and with JB and Bracket's drafting, there is little difference between and 10th and 20th pick. 

 

That being said, JB needs to improve player development cause right now, we have more talent coming through other places like NCAA than our own farm team.

  Completely agree with you on this.  If we can improve the player development model, it'll mean the difference between tweening it, and winning it all.  Of course, a person could have been saying that over the course of 50 years...but here's hoping the lesson has actually been driven home.

[Phat Fingers]

Bring back the minus!!

[The Lock]

18 minutes ago, kacholu said:

The future could be bright but it's just wishful thinking at the moment. We don't have an identity, we don't have a style of play, we don't have a clear plan. 

 

Right now we have a bunch of random players put into the roster. 

 

We are trying way too hard to make the playoffs but no where do I see anyone planing on making the team a contender. Sure we may get lucky and make the playoffs but that's where the road ends there. 

 

Even if we do become contenders in let's say 2-3 years then we need to pay a ton of money to our core guys. Which is hard to do when most of the cap is tied up with 4th liners and over paid free agents. In that case we will need to shed salary and lose depth IF I have it in the first place. Since, there is no such thing as forward thinking going with management then the team will be broken up before it even gets anywhere. 

You mention that we have a bunch of "random players". How do you think identity is created exactly? By overpaying to get specific players in a cap era? I argue that we bring in these random players to DEVELOP our identity. Identity will never be defined before you build the team. Identity comes AFTER.  If you are trying to create a team based off of identity, how do you not overpay for players at that point? How do you even get to that identity? It would probably be next to impossible.

 

So I think what you are looking for in identity will come, but you can't expect that from a developing team and be realistic about it. It's just impractical at best in my opinion.

Edited July 2, 2019 by The Lock

[WeneedLumme]

19 minutes ago, Phat Fingers said:

Bring back the minus!!

Yes please. The trolls have taken over the forum again, and even putting them on ignore doesn't help much because so many people feed them.

[nowhereman]

35 minutes ago, kacholu said:

The future could be bright but it's just wishful thinking at the moment. We don't have an identity, we don't have a style of play, we don't have a clear plan. 

 

Right now we have a bunch of random players put into the roster. 

 

We are trying way too hard to make the playoffs but no where do I see anyone planing on making the team a contender. Sure we may get lucky and make the playoffs but that's where the road ends there. 

 

Even if we do become contenders in let's say 2-3 years then we need to pay a ton of money to our core guys. Which is hard to do when most of the cap is tied up with 4th liners and over paid free agents. In that case we will need to shed salary and lose depth IF I have it in the first place. Since, there is no such thing as forward thinking going with management then the team will be broken up before it even gets anywhere. 

We don't have an identity because the core of this team is built around a 20 year old franchise center, a 19 year old first-pairing defenseman, a 21 year old first line winger and a 24 year old 1b/2a center. If the core is still growing, as is to be expected in a rebuild, why are people complaining about an identity? Patience.

 

People do a lot of complaining about Jim's signings/trades, without taking even a few seconds to wander over to literally any NHL cap website and actually look at the way the contracts affect the Canucks. Within two years, by the time Pettersson and Hughes' contracts are up, Schaller, Tanev, Sutter, Baertschi and Pearson's contracts will be off the books. That frees up almost $15 million. The year after that, LE's anchor goes away, freeing up an additional $6 million in cap. By then, the cap is also likely to go up. Then, look to Podkolzin to start playing and making a difference, even while he's still on his ELC. Follow that with guys like Gaudette, Madden, Woo, Hoglander, etc. who will be contributing on cheap/ELC contracts.

 

People need to quit with the fire-and-brimstone act. It's getting really old

Edited July 2, 2019 by nowhereman