Taking a Look at the Benning Drafts From 2014-2018

[Down by the River]

35 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said:

I find it absolutely laughable anyone in their right mind writing off a 20 year old defenseman. Ridiculous. 

I think people write off OJ, not because of OJ, but because of Benning. It helps fit their "Benning sucks" narrative. I'm lukewarm to Benning, but his selection of OJ was hardly off the board. OJ's development since then has been limited, but I don't know that you can blame Benning for that.

[kloubek]

53 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said:

I find it absolutely laughable anyone in their right mind writing off a 20 year old defenseman. Ridiculous. 

I agree.  Although it DOES appear he may not have the ceiling we were hoping for.

 

Yes Benning has had misses, but all GMs do.  I would say he has pulled out far more gems than others, and in my mind that makes him better than most.  At least Virtanen will be a solid 3rd line guy. We also have a strong assortment of other prospects, although Im not sure any of them project as high end as we really need.  IMO Woo and Madden project the highest.

 

There are quite a few Benning nay-sayers but I view them as guys who expect perfection, which isnt realistic.  We went from almost zero decent prospects under GMMG to a full cupboard.  Somehow, that is all top easy for some to ignore.

[Provost]

19 hours ago, canuck73_3 said:

I find it absolutely laughable anyone in their right mind writing off a 20 year old defenseman. Ridiculous. 

...or you could learn to read... I haven’t written him off at all.  You are conflating being a bad pick with turning into an NHL player.  Pretty eager to get on your high horse to argue something irrelevant.

 

I did say that SO FAR he is a miss as a pick.  If the draft were to happen again today he would be picked much later.  He just doesn’t project as highly now.  There isn’t a lot to suggest that will change in the future either.  Go look at any redraft of that year.  No one picks him nearly as high as he was selected.

 

The argument of defencemen developing later doesn’t hold water in this context as there are several D taken after him who have been contributing very well for their teams.  Macavoy, Chychrun, Sergachev would all be picked before him if we got a mulligan.  Plus a good number of forwards would also get picked ahead.

 

There is a world of difference between saying a player is a bust as an NHL prospect vs. a bad pick.

 

I guess people can only have extreme views on this board.  Either Benning is a God or a complete bum.  It confuses me that people can’t give him credit for good picks while acknowledging bad ones.

[canuck73_3]

34 minutes ago, Provost said:

...or you could learn to read... I haven’t written him off at all.  You are conflating being a bad pick with turning into an NHL player.  Pretty eager to get on your high horse to argue something irrelevant.

 

I did say that SO FAR he is a miss as a pick.  If the draft were to happen again today he would be picked much later.  He just doesn’t project as highly now.  There isn’t a lot to suggest that will change in the future either.  Go look at any redraft of that year.  No one picks him nearly as high as he was selected.

 

The argument of defeneen developing later doesn’t hold water in this context as there are several D taken after him who have been contributing very well for their teams.  Macavoy, Chychrun, Sergachev would all be picked before him if we got a mulligan.  Plus a good number of forwards would also get picked ahead.

 

There is a world of difference between saying a player is a bust as an NHL prospect vs. a bad pick.

 

I guess people can only have extreme views on this board.  Either Benning is a God or a complete bum.  It confuses me that people can’t give him credit for good picks while acknowledging bad ones.

I wasn't referring to you specifically in that view point. Also other defenseman picked are irrelevant to OJ trajectory as each player develops at different rates. 

 

For all we know he could end up being a better player over his career than Sergachev or Chychrun despite their accelerated NHL starts. 

 

Anyone writing him off at 20 (Not you specically to clarify) is ridiculous. Weird how defensive you got about this considering I didn't quote you on that post. 

[goalie13]

4 hours ago, Stamkos said:

Also, I’d add Brassard to our good forward prospect list. 

do you mean this Brassard?

 

 

[Provost]

17 hours ago, canuck73_3 said:

I wasn't referring to you specifically in that view point. Also other defenseman picked are irrelevant to OJ trajectory as each player develops at different rates. 

 

For all we know he could end up being a better player over his career than Sergachev or Chychrun despite their accelerated NHL starts. 

 

Anyone writing him off at 20 (Not you specically to clarify) is ridiculous. Weird how defensive you got about this considering I didn't quote you on that post. 

It was a follow up to the post you literally quoted me on...  being  disingenuous doesn’t help your argument.

 

The other players are most certainly not irrelevant when the discussion is about drafting.

 

There is a semi trailer sized hole in logic to give him credit for his good choices and trying to do mental gymnastics to ignore his bad picks.

 

Your logic means we can’t give him credit for Petterson or Boeser because by the end of their careers, players taken after them might have been better.

 

Benning isn’t our head scout, he is our GM.  He is responsible for what players we pick, how players in our system are developed, and how the team performs.

 

 

[canuck73_3]

1 minute ago, Provost said:

It was a follow up to the post you literally quoted me on...  ring disingenuous doesn’t help your argument.

 

The other players are most certainly not irrelevant when the discussion is about drafting.

 

There is a semi trailer sized hole in logic to give him credit for his good choices and trying to do mental gymnastics to ignore his bad picks.

 

Your logic means we can’t give him credit for Petterson or Boeser because by the end of their careers, players taken after them might have been better.

 

Benning isn’t our head scout, he is our GM.  He is responsible for what players we pick, how players in our system are developed, and how the team performs.

 

 

I literally wasn't referring to you. Relax. 

[DADDYROCK]

Jake V. is a power forward,he is still young and getting better each year.

Just wait until he starts to go for the net and has a defense man draped all over him and it doesn't stop him AT ALL.

When he starts to hit people so hard they literally give it all up(POOP THEMSELVES) in that moment.

Then the fans here will recognize and remember what a power forward can do for a team, someone will hit him and it only wakes him up,turning him into a beast.

REMEMBER

Todd Bertuzzi )

 

[canuck73_3]

1 minute ago, DADDYROCK said:

Jake V. is a power forward,he is still young and getting better each year.

Just wait until he starts to go for the net and has a defense man draped all over him and it doesn't stop him AT ALL.

When he starts to hit people so hard they literally give it all up(POOP THEMSELVES) in that moment.

Then the fans here will recognize and remember what a power forward can do for a team, someone will hit him and it only wakes him up,turning him into a beast.

REMEMBER

Todd Bertuzzi )

 

While I agree Virtanen will continue trending upwards Bertuzzi was next level both in skill and smarts. I don't think Virtanen will ever be a Bertuzzi type player, he will still be very effective. 

[kloubek]

9 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said:

While I agree Virtanen will continue trending upwards Bertuzzi was next level both in skill and smarts. I don't think Virtanen will ever be a Bertuzzi type player, he will still be very effective. 

Yeah I agree.  He has the physical tools (and is even faster) but I don't see him reaching Bertuzzi levels.  If the stars align I see him as a 2nd line winger at best, but most likely he will be a versatile 3rd liner.  And while disappointing given his draft position, it is far from being a true bust.

[IBatch]

3 hours ago, Provost said:

Decent drafting, but it is pretty hard to excuse misses early in the 1st round.

 

So far, at least...Virtanen and Juolevo have been misses.

 

He had been below average on the pro side with his signings.

 

He may not be the right guy going forward when it will be less aboutndrsfting and more about signing UFAs and making trades to fill out the roster.

Aside from some of his UFAs, who your paying a premium on (all really but one year of Vanek, turned into Motte), he’s done a good job at his RFAs for the most part (Gubdranson even, he didn’t give him that much term just in case he didn’t develop further which turned out to be the right call) ... and that’s what we need the most gong forward with all the contracts that will be coming up starting with Boeser this summer.  Hope he can lock him up at 7 x 8....

[NewbieCanuckFan]

23 minutes ago, DADDYROCK said:

Jake V. is a power forward,he is still young and getting better each year.

Just wait until he starts to go for the net and has a defense man draped all over him and it doesn't stop him AT ALL.

When he starts to hit people so hard they literally give it all up(POOP THEMSELVES) in that moment.

Then the fans here will recognize and remember what a power forward can do for a team, someone will hit him and it only wakes him up,turning him into a beast.

REMEMBER

Todd Bertuzzi )

 

I don’t get the comparisons to #44 at all.  Bert put up 39 points as a 20 year old rookie in the NHL (was a late 1st round pick as well...you expect those guys to have more warts that need to be smoothed over than a high pick).  One of the reasons the Isles have been mired in mediocrity was that gave up on him not long after that type of season.

[kloubek]

12 minutes ago, IBatch said:

 Hope he can lock him up at 7 x 8....

As much as I absolutely love Boeser, that seems like too much to me. While Horvat isnt maybe quite as gifted, he is a more complete player and only took 5.5 for his first contract.  If Boeser follows suit, I'd like to see 5 years at 6 per?  If he develops into a really elite player he can command more with his next contract.

 

Of course if he wants to play hardball he might get more, but he seems to be the kind of humble guy who might take a bit less like Horvat did to help the team compete.

[Dazzle]

5 hours ago, The Game said:

I think he's done an ok job, Elias and Brock were great picks, but Virtanen and Juolevi were misses. I wish he wouldn't have traded away so many second rounders though. 

Why do people sleep on Juolevi? He's a really really solid defenceman that has been slowed down by injuries. He should impress next year.

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, kloubek said:

As much as I absolutely love Boeser, that seems like too much to me. While Horvat isnt maybe quite as gifted, he is a more complete player and only took 5.5 for his first contract.  If Boeser follows suit, I'd like to see 5 years at 6 per?  If he develops into a really elite player he can command more with his next contract.

 

Of course if he wants to play hardball he might get more, but he seems to be the kind of humble guy who might take a bit less like Horvat did to help the team compete.

Given the contracts the last two years and this one in particular, I’d rather we lock him in for as long as possible and pay for a couple of his UFA years.  Horvat for six years might not look too good if he won’t sign and wants to go back east or even test free agency in a couple years.  Boesers play the second half has made me a believer, he’s better than Nylander and we all know what he got...

 

If Boeser bets on himself and goes for a bridge deal, the price could go way up...

 

I do get what your saying, I’m just not worried, he’s shown enough in two years to prove to me that he’s going to be an elite sniper in their league one day soon.    Horvats contract was on the lower side 5.5 x 6 because he will get to free agency faster, and he didn’t pay for any clauses.  That says a couple things, one he’s ok with the idea of getting traded, and two he’s willing to take less to get to free agency a little quicker, much like Tavares and Stamkos did.  

 

The way contracts are going up these days I’d like a Benning to sign our core guys to as long a term as possible and including when they can.  Last CBA the league presssd hard on limiting contracts to five years.  There is a lot of reasoning behind that for both parties as the negotiating stance will be trimming UFA down by the NHLPA as a counter.  It’s already happened in previous negotiations and it could happen again, especially with the league getting younger and athletes having less time to make their money (fourth contracts are no longer nearly as available for vets). 

 

Hes going to be a 35-55 goal scorer for most of his career...that’s worth every penny at 7 x 8.

[drummer4now]

2 hours ago, Dazzle said:

Why do people sleep on Juolevi? He's a really really solid defenceman that has been slowed down by injuries. He should impress next year.

I agree his numbers in Utica are solid.. and the only mistake was not putting him in the AHL sooner. 

He should develop well.. 

 

 

[coastal.view]

well it is encouraging

to be able to have a debate about the quality of jb picks

and nuance that discussion with how he could have done a bit better

 

let's go back a bit so that it is more obvious how nice it is to be able to have this discussion rather then just talk about complete misses - the previous 5 drafts

 

2013 - bo - 1st rounder - yessssss (sorry the real cheers will be stopping here)

        - shinkarek - 2nd rounder - ok we turned him into granlund

        - cassels - 3rd rounder - a miss

 

2012 - gaunce - 1st rounder - sorry, to me that is a miss

         - mallet  - 2nd rounder - a miss.. i still remember him, but he is not at all memorable

         - hutton - 3rd rounder - ok, not bad for a 3rd round pick

 

2011 - jensen - 1st rounder - a miss - we did move him, for another miss

        - honzik - 2nd rounder - who?????? - clearly a miss

 

2010 - no picks in the first 3 rounds - so this draft was a miss

 

2009 - schroeder - 1st rounder - clearly a miss

         - rodin - 2nd rounder - a miss

         - connauton - 3rd rounder - meh

 

really nothing to see here except bo and hutton

 

 

the topic of this thread, the most recent 5 drafts

is rich in prospects

and many names worthy of discussion

how our expectations have changed

jb and his drafting has allowed us to meaningfully discuss draft picks

nice to see

 

       

[kloubek]

46 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Hes going to be a 35-55 goal scorer for most of his career...that’s worth every penny at 7 x 8.

I get what you are saying as well, and cant really dispute your logic.  My idea was that a shorter term, lower cap gives us some 5 years to build a contender and amass hopefully higher end talent in our prospect pool.  Then in year 4 or 5 we have more cap space to sign another elite player and go for a run.  Hopefully by then our prospects are good enough and plentiful enough to replace a star like Boeser leaving if we cant afford his new contract.  

 

Two valid ideas I think, but yours caters to long term value while mine caters to hopefully contending sooner.

[xereau]

8 hours ago, Fanuck said:

JB's ability to scout amateur players has never been a question.

 

I wish I trusted his ability to trade/sign pro-level players as much.

 

Not that he's harmed the franchise,  far from it,  but you compare his drafts with his signings/trades, well....

Learning curve to everything.  He has been a scout his whole life, and it shows.  He has only been an actual GM for 4 years.  And it shows, re: UFA signings.  Beagle and Roussel were excellent, and his latest.  Schaller could still even turn out to be a smart signing, but I have my doubts...

[theo5789]

I'm not sure why people are complaining about Benning's FA signings. The obvious are the Eriksson and Gagner ones. Everyone else (and even Gagner included) have been stop gap solutions until we were able to build our depth with youth. We built rosters worth "tanking" to get the higher end picks to supplement the rebuild and now have signed FAs to help with the development of these players. We have moved FA (free assets) signings for picks and even prospects. Gagner was sent to the minors and didn't affect anyone other than cap space and then subsequently traded for someone of more value to us. So it comes down to Eriksson being currently the biggest blunder and really it's because he's not worth his contract, not that he's a poor player.

 

As an aside, people quickly jumped on Benning as well for the Gagner trade (surprise surprise) as Gagner had a couple of decent games to start. He's at 9 points in 21 games now which is a 35 point pace in a full season, so pretty much the same player that we saw last season which doesn't bode well for a guy trying to make a name back for himself re-entering the NHL and thinking he deserved an NHL spot. We cut him in preseason and cut ties completely with him, so Benning will "correct" his mistakes. On top of this, speaking of resurgences, how about that Luke Schenn?

 

Back on topic, if you add Jasek, McCann, Forsling to that list, then that's a strike rate of 21/34 which is just over 60%. Given that maybe a few of the guys on that list may not make it for whatever reason, so let's say 50%, and that's a pretty good draft record. If you can nab 17 NHLers in 5 years, you will restock the cupboards fast and rebuild quickly. However I would like to reiterate what I've said before in that development is just as important as the drafting itself and that's why we sign guys like Beagle, Roussel, etc to shelter them from the hard minutes and why winning at this stage is beneficial to build a good team environment. Tanking isn't necessary as Benning can clearly find gems almost anywhere in the draft.