[Article] Sutter is not a shutdown centre

[filthycanuck]

On 8/30/2019 at 6:50 PM, combover said:

So he’s not a shut down c,  he’s not a scoring c, he is not a set up c, he’s doesn't hit and he doesn’t stand up for his teammates on or off the ice..... aka Foundational. .. . Must be why teams are lining  up to get him. 

 

 

 

Yeah they are. To keep the medical staff busy, or finish the left over food in the press box

[DrJockitch]

His ineffectiveness and injuries are why we had to go out and sign Beagle, it wasn't just last year, last year was just the continuation of a trend.

I used to have the argument with Guddy that just because he can't score doesn't mean he is a shutdown guy, it just means he can't score.  Sutter, Erikkson and Guddy were really the poorly performing parts of the failed attempt to make a last run with the Sedin's

Best thing for him and us will be to get him healthy and in the line up.  Have him hold Gaudette's spot until the TDL and see if he can generate some interest by being healthy.  He should have a some better wingers and a D that is more effective at moving the puck and I suspect some his numbers will improve and hopefully someone will want him by TDL.  Benning wants to recoup a first and while a healthy Sutter probably won't get you that he may get something or be a piece to dangle along with Tanev.

Gives Gaudette most of a season to round out his game and develop his offence in Utica and as first call at C.

[Junkyard Dog]

If he can win a ton of draws playing a match up defensive role on top of being a productive secondary scorer then money well spent. He's gonna be playing 3/4 of his time in his own end.

 

All starts with being healthy though.

[JM_]

6 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

If he can win a ton of draws playing a match up defensive role on top of being a productive secondary scorer then money well spent. He's gonna be playing 3/4 of his time in his own end.

 

All starts with being healthy though.

bingo. Thats why I think it would be interesting to see if he and Jake click, Jake can carry the puck out with a ton of speed. They need a better playmaker with them, maybe thats Gaudette eventually. 

[JM_]

2 hours ago, DrJockitch said:

His ineffectiveness and injuries are why we had to go out and sign Beagle, it wasn't just last year, last year was just the continuation of a trend.

I used to have the argument with Guddy that just because he can't score doesn't mean he is a shutdown guy, it just means he can't score.  Sutter, Erikkson and Guddy were really the poorly performing parts of the failed attempt to make a last run with the Sedin's

Best thing for him and us will be to get him healthy and in the line up.  Have him hold Gaudette's spot until the TDL and see if he can generate some interest by being healthy.  He should have a some better wingers and a D that is more effective at moving the puck and I suspect some his numbers will improve and hopefully someone will want him by TDL.  Benning wants to recoup a first and while a healthy Sutter probably won't get you that he may get something or be a piece to dangle along with Tanev.

Gives Gaudette most of a season to round out his game and develop his offence in Utica and as first call at C.

I don't think Sutter had anything to do with Jim bringing in Beagle. There were still big holes in the bottom 6 and leadership group even with Sutter being out. 

Edited September 1, 2019 by Jimmy McGill

[Borvat]

Sutter has had a few tough years in Vancouver for sure.  He has basically had one decent season - 2016-17.  The others have been a disappointment (and injury riddled) but then so has basically the whole team - not a very good roster. 

 

If you dig deeper his numbers basically reflect how bad the team was as a whole - not just him alone.  His D zone start rate is pretty hefty with tons of defensive ice time which won't help anyone's stats.  I want to see him healthy and on this current roster before passing final judgement on the player. His salary has definitely not been reflective of value so far.

 

As far as the term "Shutdown Center" goes I always though that was reserved for a player who was given a specific assignment to shadow the other teams star like Gretzky or ? during a game or playoff series - not something over a whole year.  Kesler was given that role at times.  I always viewed players like Sutter as more of a defensively responsible two way center who could PK and was good at faceoffs.  I am hopeful he becomes that good two way center we thought we were getting.  It would sure make the Canucks deep down the middle and free up Bo and Miller for top six duty.  

 

 

 

 

Edited September 1, 2019 by Borvat

[Junkyard Dog]

19 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

bingo. Thats why I think it would be interesting to see if he and Jake click, Jake can carry the puck out with a ton of speed. They need a better playmaker with them, maybe thats Gaudette eventually. 

They will probably have Baertschi on that line to start the year. Rousell is who we probably want there when he gets back and Baer will be used n the top 6 once there's an injury. Jake could fit there but idk if we want to prohibit his offensive zone time.

 

 

[189lb enforcers?]

He’s served his purpose as a bridge, foundational for the R-word process, and is now a depth piece at best, but hopefully becoming redundant and expendable.

 

[JM_]

8 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

They will probably have Baertschi on that line to start the year. Rousell is who we probably want there when he gets back and Baer will be used n the top 6 once there's an injury. Jake could fit there but idk if we want to prohibit his offensive zone time.

Jakes not much of a sniper, he needs to generate speed and when he does that he's hard to stop since he's a big kid. Dunno, I'm very curious where Green is going to place him. 

[Junkyard Dog]

7 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

He’s served his purpose as a bridge, foundational for the R-word process, and is now a depth piece at best, but hopefully becoming redundant and expendable.

 

Once Gaudette is ready to handle that sort of responsibility Sutts should probably be moved 100%. They could keep him for depth and probably would if there was a major injury to Bo or Petey hockey gods forbid. In a perfect world Gaudette is ready by this TD or next season we stay healthy and Sutts gets moved for future assets(picks/prospects.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Junkyard Dog

[DeNiro]

Sutter seems like a character guy. If all he accomplishes here is teaching our young guys to be pros I would say it was a good signing.

 

Its not like any of these stop gap players have had a negative impact. The only exception being Eriksson.

 

I would say we’re in a good position now where these vets are really going to be challenged by younger players. And that’s where you want to be as an organization.

 

Edited September 1, 2019 by DeNiro

[Jester13]

4 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

Sutter seems like a character guy. If all he accomplishes here is teaching our young guys to be pros I would say it was a good signing.

 

Its not like any of these stop gap players have had a negative impact. The only exception being Eriksson.

 

I would say we’re in a good position now where these vets are really going to be challenged by younger players. And that’s where you want to be as an organization.

 

Totes. Critics need to realize that Sutter and Loui and Beagle, etc., may look contractually bad at this time, but only because Petey and Brock sped up the rebuild and threw the planned timeline off a bit by a couple years. They're still not hurting us and, in fact, are making a large intangible difference for our team moving forward. 

[Junkyard Dog]

Lets keep this in mind people

 

Sutter was 2nd overall and first among forwards in short-handed TOI with 3:07 2nd fwd being Beagle with 2:40 and then Granlund with 2:24. Safe to assume that Sutter would of probably kept that up since he'd be the first guy out there on the PK, very much like Tanev who was 1st overall.

 

In retrospect Horvat had hardly any with averaging 27 seconds despite Sutter being injured most of the year and Gaudette was not utilized on the PK. Schaller, Granlund, Motte and Beagle were our main PK fwds last year. Granny gone and Schaller won't be on a healthy roster and might be waived. Clear to me that Sutter still has a level of importance on this team for this year.

[alt kilgore]

I think these analytics back up the eye test on ice.   I've always said he's like a Jack of all Trades and Master of None.  Which is not a great thing to be @ $4.5 million per season. He not terrible at anything, but he's not very good either.  The NHL values players who are masters at one role, and good at one other perhaps.  For example, the Sedins, masters at scoring, offence, ragging the puck in the O zone, but not so great defensively, or shoot-outs. Tanev, in his prime at least, fantastic as a defensive defenseman, not so good at offence. That is what is valuable in the NHL.  When a coach can rely on a certain player to perform well in a role needed at a certain time in the game.

 

A player like Sutter who never shines in any one area, but rather mediocre, does not add value to the team.  He has turned into a very expensive plug. And that is double trouble if he eats up so much cap space. I'll grant his experience being a veteran in the league counts for something in different situations. And there is a bit of a mulligan for injuries taking away his rhythm even when he gets back on ice, but I've learned to never expect much from him on his shift now. He's a place taker, not bad, not good. just taking space. Hopefully Gaudette makes him expendable at the TD...if Brendan can at least be healthy around then.

 

 

[JM_]

7 minutes ago, kilgore said:

I think these analytics back up the eye test on ice.   I've always said he's like a Jack of all Trades and Master of None.  Which is not a great thing to be @ $4.5 million per season. He not terrible at anything, but he's not very good either.  The NHL values players who are masters at one role, and good at one other perhaps.  For example, the Sedins, masters at scoring, offence, ragging the puck in the O zone, but not so great defensively, or shoot-outs. Tanev, in his prime at least, fantastic as a defensive defenseman, not so good at offence. That is what is valuable in the NHL.  When a coach can rely on a certain player to perform well in a role needed at a certain time in the game.

 

A player like Sutter who never shines in any one area, but rather mediocre, does not add value to the team.  He has turned into a very expensive plug. And that is double trouble if he eats up so much cap space. I'll grant his experience being a veteran in the league counts for something in different situations. And there is a bit of a mulligan for injuries taking away his rhythm even when he gets back on ice, but I've learned to never expect much from him on his shift now. He's a place taker, not bad, not good. just taking space. Hopefully Gaudette makes him expendable at the TD...if Brendan can at least be healthy around then.

 

 

the analytics show that when he's got roughly 50% zone time he can score 17 goals as a 3C. When he's got 70-80% d zone starts his numbers are down. Show me a player who has 80% d zone time that scores 17 goals. 

 

[FaninMex]

He has been a defensive stalward on a very bad team. He has been getting hurt because most of the games were being played in our d zone and he was the one playing the hard minutes.

With an upgraded top 6 those minutes should even out and he will play healthier. 

He came from the Pens which had a great top 6 and he was hardly out.

[ilduce39]

58 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

the analytics show that when he's got roughly 50% zone time he can score 17 goals as a 3C. When he's got 70-80% d zone starts his numbers are down. Show me a player who has 80% d zone time that scores 17 goals. 

 

In 17/18 he was on pace for 15 goals and 35 points over 82 in that deployment.  He was also a plus player and had more gf than ga 5v5. 

 

If we get that player back (one injury plagued season removed) we’re laughing.  People forget the powerhouse 2011 team was only getting 30/29/29 points from Malhotra/Torres/Hansen. 

 

Sutter/Virtanen/Whoever could surpass that while still soaking up the D zone starts.

[Crabcakes]

On 8/31/2019 at 12:20 AM, spook007 said:

How about we take this discussion halfway through this upcoming season, provided Sutter stays healthy.

I have a good feeling that his stats are going to improve severely with the new arrivals to our team.

Being injured half the season and playing with changing line mates doesn't help anyones stats.... scape goat springs to mind...

Having a deeper team is going to help everybody's performance

 

Sutter was just fine when he played in Pittsburgh, then he came here and sucked.  Depth might be the answer to that question / riddle.

 

Bonino sucked when he was here (ok, not 100% but he was over his head as a 2C).....who knew he was good when he landed in Pitt?

 

 

 

 

Edited September 1, 2019 by Crabcakes

[Crabcakes]

5 hours ago, Borvat said:

Sutter has had a few tough years in Vancouver for sure.  He has basically had one decent season - 2016-17.  The others have been a disappointment (and injury riddled) but then so has basically the whole team - not a very good roster. 

 

If you dig deeper his numbers basically reflect how bad the team was as a whole - not just him alone.  His D zone start rate is pretty hefty with tons of defensive ice time which won't help anyone's stats.  I want to see him healthy and on this current roster before passing final judgement on the player. His salary has definitely not been reflective of value so far.

 

As far as the term "Shutdown Center" goes I always though that was reserved for a player who was given a specific assignment to shadow the other teams star like Gretzky or ? during a game or playoff series - not something over a whole year.  Kesler was given that role at times.  I always viewed players like Sutter as more of a defensively responsible two way center who could PK and was good at faceoffs.  I am hopeful he becomes that good two way center we thought we were getting.  It would sure make the Canucks deep down the middle and free up Bo and Miller for top six duty.  

 

 

 

 

Look at the D-zone starts the last 2 seasons and how Sutters stats have fallen

 

5 hours ago, Junkyard Dog said:

They will probably have Baertschi on that line to start the year. Rousell is who we probably want there when he gets back and Baer will be used n the top 6 once there's an injury. Jake could fit there but idk if we want to prohibit his offensive zone time.

 

 

This is what I'd like to see.  A skilled winger with playmaking ability with Sutter.  I don't think we're seeing 2 defense first lines this year.  There is more skill this year.

[EdgarM]

7 hours ago, kilgore said:

I think these analytics back up the eye test on ice.   I've always said he's like a Jack of all Trades and Master of None.  Which is not a great thing to be @ $4.5 million per season. He not terrible at anything, but he's not very good either.  The NHL values players who are masters at one role, and good at one other perhaps.  For example, the Sedins, masters at scoring, offence, ragging the puck in the O zone, but not so great defensively, or shoot-outs. Tanev, in his prime at least, fantastic as a defensive defenseman, not so good at offence. That is what is valuable in the NHL.  When a coach can rely on a certain player to perform well in a role needed at a certain time in the game.

 

A player like Sutter who never shines in any one area, but rather mediocre, does not add value to the team.  He has turned into a very expensive plug. And that is double trouble if he eats up so much cap space. I'll grant his experience being a veteran in the league counts for something in different situations. And there is a bit of a mulligan for injuries taking away his rhythm even when he gets back on ice, but I've learned to never expect much from him on his shift now. He's a place taker, not bad, not good. just taking space. Hopefully Gaudette makes him expendable at the TD...if Brendan can at least be healthy around then.

 

 

I think you have that backwards. A player who can play in "ALL" situations is much more valuable then a "one dimensional" player. The Sedins would have stayed in the league longer if they could play some kind of defense. They became a "liability" and so they had to go. Their one dimensional play was easily shut down in the playoffs with tighter, aggressive checking.

A player such as Sutter becomes all that more valuable as their defense, veteran experience helps when the other team tightens up their defense. A defensive guy who can pop in the odd goal is someone I want on the ice in a game 7 or in O/T. 

The young guys are going to "NEED" players such as him as they learn to play in tighter checking games and eventually playoff games. Thinking these players such as Sutter are expendable at this stage of the rebuild is just silly IMO.

I agree with the role players but we have not had depth and we have had tons of injuries to try and assemble "Roles" for our players the last couple of seasons. Its been a mish mash and I am thinking guys will have better set roles this coming season. 

Gaudette is not ready yet and I would not rush him into having all that defensive responsibility just yet.