Why have we never got a replay of what Messier did to Linden in the SCF?

[IBatch]

14 minutes ago, debluvscanucks said:

You speak in riddles though.  If you'd stop doing that (read my cute little sig) we'd get a more direct conversation going here.

 

Over it.  

 

Not doing this anymore because it's not fun.  I'd rather watch hockey.  But you can look at the videos later and tell us how it is.  A few of those here lately.

 

But here's "video" of Messier.   Enough for me.

 

 

I train in Mauy Thai, there is a reason why elbows aren’t allowed during kickboxing tournaments - and all Mauy Thai fighters know it’s the quickest way to end a fight.  Doesn’t seem fair to us - but we understand why it’s banned.   It’s dangerous.   Bure ... your a champ. 

[RWMc1]

31 minutes ago, Baggins said:

The league standard for sufficient reaction time to change the course you're on is 5/10 of a second. Rome during his 8/10 actually changed course to make the hit whereas the league .5 is sufficient time to change an already chosen path. It doesn't matter that he hit chest first, and I did say it would have been a perfectly legal hit if timely, what matters is how late it was and that he actually changed direction to do it when he had more than enough time not to do so. He had the time to make a better decision is what it came down to. I don't understand how anybody could defend it. Rome chose what he did just as Bure did.

So how late was boychuck's attack on Raymond? That was in the same series.

 

The hit was not egregiously late and the head was not the principle point of contact. Since then, our players have taken hits later than that entering the zone and the league stooges always answer with "He should have kept his head up." The only difference was the outcome looked bad on the league.

 

The point I made earlier was about the league changing rules to favour specific teams. .5 of a second to over 4 seconds is a big jump. Nothing to see here though.

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Baggins said:

Neither is a player without the puck not even looking in your direction. Dirty plays are dirty plays, but all dirty plays are not created equal. You have to be able to actually review them to be able to fairly judge them. For example Rome's cheap shot was dirty. Bure's elbow was dirty. Rome wasn't actually headhunting and if more timely would have been perfectly legal. What made it dirty was the fact that it was late and he had the time not to do it. Bure's on the other hand was pure dirt and illegal no matter how you cut it. So Bure's was the dirtier of the two. This can be seen in the video evidence. Without video evidence how can you judge level severity?

 

Wouldn't that also be true of somebody in the stands? Even more so as what they saw was in an instant whereas video can be slowed and viewed multiple times.

Rome’s hit was a microsecond late.  A good hit really.   Wouldn’t call it dirty.   The “video evidence” doesn’t factor in athletes intent or reaction times.    Don’t buy into the war room bs too much.   When it happens live it’s a different story altogether.    The you-tube era and video replay era might catch somethings - but it’s never the entire story no matter how slow the frames are made.    It’s a fast sport.   Not everyone has eyes behind their head or the ability to duck or pull back when if they tried.   In other words a lot of grey areas - even with the newish rules.   Wilson is a demon now.   Twenty years ago he’d be barely average as far as riding the line. 

[xereau]

7 hours ago, Goal:thecup said:

Right on!

 

I did a search of CBC Archives ( https://www.cbc.ca/archives/categories/arts-entertainment/television/ ) looking for the video of Messier going after Linden (again) while he was already down on the ice.

 

True to form, CBC has a list of categories and when you go down the list to sports then hockey, there is only one NHL team listed; you guessed it, Tarranna!

 

This brings up another area where CBC always favoured TO and Montreal over the Canucks, and one of the worst was the psycophantic Ron 'Hitman' MacLean* (*hit job on Burroughs).

That slimy liar just loved Muck Messier and doted on him and (I think) started that great leader BS, and pushed for the most-poorly named trophy in the history of sports.

Can't believe MacLean still has a job, scumbag.

 

[Baggins]

3 hours ago, IBatch said:

Huh?  That was an awesome play.   We’re you watching that game?  Nobody I know didn’t cheer when he did that.   Was been cheep shotted - butt ended to the ribs - knocked around and shadowed by  the Stars up until then, and Churla was assigned to hurt him.   Good grief.  That’s not homerism - that’s reality. 

Would you say a Canuck player had it coming if the roles were reversed? If not it's homerism. Therein lies the problem for me. To me wrong is wrong no matter which side does it. You don't like getting manhandled you drop the gloves and take care of business. You don't sucker punch a player, or in this case sucker elbow, EVER. It's cowardly. There's no justifying a sucker punch. That's reality. 

[Baggins]

3 hours ago, RWMc1 said:

So how late was boychuck's attack on Raymond? That was in the same series.

 

The hit was not egregiously late and the head was not the principle point of contact. Since then, our players have taken hits later than that entering the zone and the league stooges always answer with "He should have kept his head up." The only difference was the outcome looked bad on the league.

 

The point I made earlier was about the league changing rules to favour specific teams. .5 of a second to over 4 seconds is a big jump. Nothing to see here though.

How about sticking to one thing. Raymond actually instigated the contact and momentum carried them into the boards. There was no "attack" there. 

 

Purely looking through Canuck colored glasses. 

 

"What about" doesn't make something right. Otherwise you can justify anything and everything that happens. How about sticking to one incident and right or wrong. Did Rome violate the rules and injure a player? A simple yes or no is all that's needed.

[the grinder]

28 minutes ago, Baggins said:

Would you say a Canuck player had it coming if the roles were reversed? If not it's homerism. Therein lies the problem for me. To me wrong is wrong no matter which side does it. You don't like getting manhandled you drop the gloves and take care of business. You don't sucker punch a player, or in this case sucker elbow, EVER. It's cowardly. There's no justifying a sucker punch. That's reality. 

and thats exactly what bure did handle business , Churla  is nothing more than a goon( all of 71 pts in 12 seasons) that targeted bure's head several times ( talk about a coward ) and got what was coming to him  , I dont care what team a player is playing on if your going head hunting  and the refs are allowing  expect a head shot coming back ,  don't like it too bad thats the way the game was refed back in the day , and thats the reality 

 

[CptCanuck16]

On 1/1/2021 at 3:26 PM, debluvscanucks said:

Messier coming to Vancouver was a nightmare....I cringed and it was the first time I really couldn't stomach the team.  Keenan too...what an invasion

Facts.

The Messier era was the only time in the last 27 years that I didn't follow the team. 

[grandmaster]

On 1/1/2021 at 3:52 PM, debluvscanucks said:

Nope.  I was right in the thick of it and you're wrong.  It was so much worse than Bure/Churla.  Churla was "actively playing hockey" and that shift it was a back and forth.  Linden was injured, defenseless and Messier preyed on that....a guy crawling off the ice on all fours.  Not part of the play.

True but I will say that it was a kill or be killed mentality back then. There was no mercy for vulnerable players. Those things happened. Sucks that this play likely caused us to lose to Cup that year.

 

I originally got into hockey because of the old Oilers and when Messier came to Vancouver I was ecstatic. I went from expecting a Stanley Cup to seeing one of the darkest years in Canuck history. Messier never even tried. I attended a few games and eventually became bitter watching him not do any of what he was famous for. He stayed well clear of the net, skated slowly and had zero physicality. I remember an accurate write up on him back in the day which described him as having “the strength of an 18 wheeler and the speed of a Ferrari”. It was clear that he was only here for the money and didn’t want to win. His strength was more of jalopy with the speed of a Neon. Ever since, I’ve hated this guy and cringe when I hear of that NHL “leadership” award.

[canuckster19]

8 hours ago, CptCanuck16 said:

Facts.

The Messier era was the only time in the last 27 years that I didn't follow the team. 

Yeah I was 16 when he signed and was excited at first but turned off the team when it was obvious he was mailing it in and turning the team into his retirement plan.

[-DLC-]

13 hours ago, Baggins said:

Otherwise you can justify anything and everything that happens.

Ha, cute.  You've done that throughout.

 

(Paraphrasing in quotes):
Messier ("no one saw it");
Raymond ("he did it himself");
Getzlaf ("I don't care that you were there and saw it, doesn't count");
Rome ("dirty because it was a late hit")....goes on to somehow try to defend Messier's late hit?????!! 
Bure ("intentional headhunting on an unsuspecting player")...see:  Messier's late hit on Linden again
"no justifying a sucker punch" as he justifies hitting an injured player crawling off the ice.

 

Your own argument should give you a clue:

Linden WAS injured prior to Messier hitting him...you're right about that.  Which makes it intentional headhunting of an unsuspecting (and, even worse) INJURED player.  Yet, for some strange reason (mostly to prove you're the ultimate NON homer) you're justifying it.  Trying hard to "create your own story" about it, that goes against what everyone in the building, including the guy calling the game, report having actually happened. You weren't there, didn't see it....but are here to argue it?

 

Reality:  Messier hit a guy as he crawled off the ice.  Your reality:  to talk about it makes people Canuck homers.  It may have been a bump and it didn't actually hurt him because he was already hurt and no one saw it so all the people who did see it could be wrong.

 

Your "anti homer" vision is possibly blurring things and you are, in fact, creating your own stories.  And, with them, a bit of a double standard.

 

The anti Canucks homer narrative that you seem hell bent on proving is slanting things to make them fit (see above).  It's ok to be "pro our team".  Even if it's sometimes lopsided.  It doesn't mean you over correct the other way and nothing is ever true in relation to the Canucks.  You're over compensating for us.  It's even worse than being a homer.

 

It's tiring...this topic is about Messier and if you feel he did no wrong, you're likely in the wrong place. 

 

But: If Rome's was a late/dirty hit, then Messier's was.  If Bure's was headhunting and intentional, then Messier's was.  Which is what this thread is about.  You trying to spin it around to make it about the fans is your issue, not ours.   Even IF we're all homers here, Messier's still the ass who doled that dirty, late hit....you can't make that "untrue".  And your mission to do so is unsuccessful and questionable.

 

If everyone in the thread is telling you, it's sort of the same when everyone in a rink is screaming about something.  You may have to rethink your stance because the numbers aren't in your favour and you may be wrong.

[IBatch]

14 hours ago, Baggins said:

Would you say a Canuck player had it coming if the roles were reversed? If not it's homerism. Therein lies the problem for me. To me wrong is wrong no matter which side does it. You don't like getting manhandled you drop the gloves and take care of business. You don't sucker punch a player, or in this case sucker elbow, EVER. It's cowardly. There's no justifying a sucker punch. That's reality. 

The only sucker punch that most of an entire country cheered was Domi’s.   The worst one I can re-call against Vancouver was when Scott Walker had both his hands held and took a brutal and bloody punch in the face by Petit... he got out and lay a beating on him.   Curiously later in his career he did the same thing.   Hockey can be brutal - I get the point your trying to make but given the nature of the sport, it’s going to keep happening even in today’s much tamer league.  Lecavalier did it to Malkin.. and of course McSorely did it to Brashear and Bertuzzi... ugh. 

 

 EP was a target his rookie year too.   Watching the play live in MTL closely (whenever he was on the ice it’s all I watched - being the first time I could see him play live) it definitely looked intentional despite the “video re-play” and excuse too many vowels made about it later and I wasn’t the only one to feel that way.   THN senior writer Ken Campbell wrote a scathing review of this a month later in one of his articles.   He checked first to make sure nobody was watching THEN rolled him judostyle .“Accidentally on purpose “... he doesn’t have any skin in it - and isn’t a homer for the Canucks at least.   So when fans are there live watching games they do have a viewpoint they won’t be caught on camera - but burned into their brain when this stuff happens if they watched it unfold.   Doesn’t mean it’s excusable ... but it doesn’t need invalidation either. 

 

[xereau]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

The only sucker punch that most of an entire country cheered was Domi’s.   The worst one I can re-call against Vancouver was when Scott Walker had both his hands held and took a brutal and bloody punch in the face by Petit... he got out and lay a beating on him.   Curiously later in his career he did the same thing.   Hockey can be brutal - I get the point your trying to make but given the nature of the sport, it’s going to keep happening even in today’s much tamer league.  Lecavalier did it to Malkin.. and of course McSorely did it to Brashear and Bertuzzi... ugh. 

 

 EP was a target his rookie year too.   Watching the play live in MTL closely (whenever he was on the ice it’s all I watched - being the first time I could see him play live) it definitely looked intentional despite the “video re-play” and excuse too many vowels made about it later and I wasn’t the only one to feel that way.   THN senior writer Ken Campbell wrote a scathing review of this a month later in one of his articles.   He checked first to make sure nobody was watching THEN rolled him judostyle .“Accidentally on purpose “... he doesn’t have any skin in it - and isn’t a homer for the Canucks at least.   So when fans are there live watching games they do have a viewpoint they won’t be caught on camera - but burned into their brain when this stuff happens if they watched it unfold.   Doesn’t mean it’s excusable ... but it doesn’t need invalidation either. 

 

And that's precisely why Scotty Walker is coaching in this system. Character guys like him don't come along very often.

[xereau]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

The only sucker punch that most of an entire country cheered was Domi’s.   The worst one I can re-call against Vancouver was when Scott Walker had both his hands held and took a brutal and bloody punch in the face by Petit... he got out and lay a beating on him.   Curiously later in his career he did the same thing.   Hockey can be brutal - I get the point your trying to make but given the nature of the sport, it’s going to keep happening even in today’s much tamer league.  Lecavalier did it to Malkin.. and of course McSorely did it to Brashear and Bertuzzi... ugh. 

 

 EP was a target his rookie year too.   Watching the play live in MTL closely (whenever he was on the ice it’s all I watched - being the first time I could see him play live) it definitely looked intentional despite the “video re-play” and excuse too many vowels made about it later and I wasn’t the only one to feel that way.   THN senior writer Ken Campbell wrote a scathing review of this a month later in one of his articles.   He checked first to make sure nobody was watching THEN rolled him judostyle .“Accidentally on purpose “... he doesn’t have any skin in it - and isn’t a homer for the Canucks at least.   So when fans are there live watching games they do have a viewpoint they won’t be caught on camera - but burned into their brain when this stuff happens if they watched it unfold.   Doesn’t mean it’s excusable ... but it doesn’t need invalidation either. 

 

That Kotkaniemi puke never did pay for that chickencrap move, and you are right, it WAS on purpose.

[Fan since 82]

On 1/1/2021 at 11:27 PM, debluvscanucks said:

The difference being that, once a guy's down, it's overkill and beyond just a dirty play.  It's scum level dirt. 

 

Going back at a wounded player who's crawling on hands and knees takes a special kind of heartlessness.

 

Throwing an elbow at a guy who's been targeting you is cheap/dirty...but not that level in my mind.  

No certainly not the same level (Messier is despicable), but there's no doubt Bure's intent was to do as much damage to Curla as possible.

[-DLC-]

3 hours ago, Fan since 82 said:

No certainly not the same level (Messier is despicable), but there's no doubt Bure's intent was to do as much damage to Curla as possible.

Oh no doubt.  He was furious....I liked that he pushed back.  He was a star player and was taking crap that entire shift so the fact that he retaliated was ok by me.  It was an elbow and dirty, but he was giving some back, that's all.  Don't like blindside hits, but they happen at times.  God knows our team's taken enough of them.  I've NEVER seen someone cross check an injured player who's down.  That's heartless.

[Ghostsof1915]

4 minutes ago, debluvscanucks said:

Oh no doubt.  He was furious....I liked that he pushed back.  He was a star player and was taking crap that entire shift so the fact that he retaliated was ok by me.  It was an elbow and dirty, but he was giving some back, that's all.  Don't like blindside hits, but they happen at times.  God knows our team's taken enough of them.  I've NEVER seen someone cross check an injured player who's down.  That's heartless.

The words "gutless puke" comes to mind. 

[canuck73_3]

On 1/2/2021 at 3:24 PM, IBatch said:

Rome’s hit was a microsecond late.  A good hit really.   Wouldn’t call it dirty.   The “video evidence” doesn’t factor in athletes intent or reaction times.    Don’t buy into the war room bs too much.   When it happens live it’s a different story altogether.    The you-tube era and video replay era might catch somethings - but it’s never the entire story no matter how slow the frames are made.    It’s a fast sport.   Not everyone has eyes behind their head or the ability to duck or pull back when if they tried.   In other words a lot of grey areas - even with the newish rules.   Wilson is a demon now.   Twenty years ago he’d be barely average as far as riding the line. 

Rome’s hit as 5 and a game is acceptable to me, the suspension that followed, a joke. 

[Chris12345]

On 1/1/2021 at 3:23 PM, canuck73_3 said:

I mean Bure on Churla would result in a suspension for the rest of the playoffs now if we’re being honest. 

Playoffs? In 2021 that would be years haha.  

 

10 was the absolute best.

Edited January 4, 2021 by Chris12345

[Chris12345]

On 1/1/2021 at 11:06 PM, buddhahoodlum said:

Messier- great hockey player. Kind of a sh!tty human.

 

 

Only rumours but I heard Messier was a jerk.

 

Mike Keenan...I heard was extremely nice.