Seven years without a clear plan from Canucks brass.

[Bertuzzipunch]

I dont care what anyone thinks but im really excited for next season. As long as petey and quinn are signed(which they will be). I like the potential we have so watever keep screaming fire benning if it makes u feel better lol

[Fred65]

21 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Look at the bigger picture of where we're headed as an organization with a solid young core, expiring vet contracts and a deep pool of support pieces coming rather than hyper focusing on short term results in a season that went sideways.

 

IMO we're a lot closer to the team that clawed it's way back in to the playoff picture (without it's young star centre) than the mess before that or the team that's clearly hit the wall after getting Covid and compounded by playing another compressed schedule after it. I don't expect us to win more than a couple of our remaining games (if that). That doesn't make the team's long term prospects bad though. It just means that this mess of a season will continue to suck.

Quote

 I don't expect us to win more than a couple of our remaining games (if that). That doesn't make the team's long term prospects bad though. It just means that this mess of a season will continue to suck.

That's a fair prognostication ie there's more bad to come. If you're valuing a franchise as a business man that's not good. The fact that we have no fans in the building this year has worked in favour of the current management. If this team was owned by Dolan ( NYR** ) the management team would be gone a long time ago. You can't keep rinse and repeat and expect fans to fork out large lumps of money year after year. I understand you're a glass half full guy, and that's OK, my problem is you can't just repeating the same errors ( Pearson for  3 years at $3.3 at 28 years old ) He's not a top 6 winger and in 2 years time we're all going to kicking ourselves.

 

**  The NYR started their rebuild with "the letter" in 2018 and Dolan thinks things ain't making enough progress. Vcr started in 2014 and it's still fermenting

[aGENT]

14 minutes ago, Fred65 said:

That's a fair prognostication ie there's more bad to come. If you're valuing a franchise as a business man that's not good. The fact that we have no fans in the building this year has worked in favour of the current management. If this team was owned by Dolan ( NYR** ) the management team would be gone a long time ago. You can't keep rinse and repeat and expect fans to fork out large lumps of money year after year. I understand you're a glass half full guy, and that's OK, my problem is you can't just repeating the same errors ( Pearson for  3 years at $3.3 at 28 years old ) He's not a top 6 winger and in 2 years time we're all going to kicking ourselves.

 

**  The NYR started their rebuild with "the letter" in 2018 and Dolan thinks things ain't making enough progress. Vcr started in 2014 and it's still fermenting

It's not a matter of glass half full or empty. It's simply not confusing poor short term results in a mess of a season with the overall mid-long term outlook of the organization. Big picture vs hyper focused minutia. Having realistic expectations during a rebuild helps as well.

 

IMO, unless there's circumstances we're not aware of, the Rangers firing their management is hardly something we should aspire to. Besides the Trouba signing being underwhelming (and that they've had massive lottery horse shoes), they've done a good job rebuilding (granted with a comparably far better starting point/saleable assets vs the Canucks).

[Fred65]

13 minutes ago, aGENT said:

It's not a matter of glass half full or empty. It's simply not confusing poor short term results in a mess of a season with the overall mid-long term outlook of the organization. Big picture vs hyper focused minutia. Having realistic expectations during a rebuild helps as well.

 

IMO, unless there's circumstances we're not aware of, the Rangers firing their management is hardly something we should aspire to. Besides the Trouba signing being underwhelming (and that they've had massive lottery horse shoes), they've done a good job rebuilding (granted with a comparably far better starting point/saleable assets vs the Canucks).

Short term, man this has been a recurring nightmare for 7 years. IMO this is not short term. I'm tired of .... "well next year watch out." What's encouraging about continuously referring to the future. One thing I could never understand was ( as an example)signing Ferland with a history as long as your arm suffering from concussions It's like some how there's a self destruction element happening in Vancouver management and it goes on and on  and on. Give up Toffoli ( he of the 28 goal currently) and yet sign Pearson ( he of 10 goals currently ) it's like it's a death wish. It's breath taking

[kloubek]

2 hours ago, aGENT said:

I'd be ok with running a sheltered 'kid' 4th (3rd?) line with Lind at C if we're spitballing about next year. Something like:

 

Miller, Pettersson, Boeser

Pearson, Horvat, Podkolzin/Hoglander

XXXXX, Lind, Podkolzin/Hoglander

Motte, Sutter, MacEwan

 

I think the three 'vet' lines could shelter that kid line initially. But really, Lind and Podkolzin both have fairly developed two way games already and may not need it long. Hoglander is a bit of a work in progress positionally in that regard but his motor covers a lot of his shortcomings there.

 

 

I think your lineup is the most likely scenario if Beags remains out - though I wouldn't be adverse as to try Motte on that 3rd line.

Your lineup speaks to their grooming of Lind at C - though I gotta say, 3C is a lot of responsibility for a guy who hasn't shown us a ton at this level - yet. Could just as easily put Sutter in there if need be - though he seems perfectly suited for the 4C role instead and... let's face it - isn't exactly the key to an overwhelming offensive line.

"Bit". Lol. Hogs is all over the place. He's a smart kid - he'll get it. As you know, I'm very excited to see how he will develop.

[aGENT]

1 hour ago, Fred65 said:

Short term, man this has been a recurring nightmare for 7 years. IMO this is not short term. I'm tired of .... "well next year watch out." What's encouraging about continuously referring to the future. One thing I could never understand was ( as an example)signing Ferland with a history as long as your arm suffering from concussions It's like some how there's a self destruction element happening in Vancouver management and it goes on and on  and on. Give up Toffoli ( he of the 28 goal currently) and yet sign Pearson ( he of 10 goals currently ) it's like it's a death wish. It's breath taking

It's a rebuild...what did you think was going to happen? Multiple long playoff runs while bottoming out? Exactly what I'm talking about regarding realistic expectations. Seven years isn't a long rebuild FYI.

Edited May 6, 2021 by aGENT

[aGENT]

43 minutes ago, kloubek said:

I think your lineup is the most likely scenario if Beags remains out - though I wouldn't be adverse as to try Motte on that 3rd line.

Your lineup speaks to their grooming of Lind at C - though I gotta say, 3C is a lot of responsibility for a guy who hasn't shown us a ton at this level - yet. Could just as easily put Sutter in there if need be - though he seems perfectly suited for the 4C role instead and... let's face it - isn't exactly the key to an overwhelming offensive line.

"Bit". Lol. Hogs is all over the place. He's a smart kid - he'll get it. As you know, I'm very excited to see how he will develop.

Well, like I hinted at in that post, it more likely would be our '4th' line in ice time in that scenario. The Motte/Sutter (or other C) line would be our key match up/hard minute line and likely see closer to '3rd' line TOI usage (though I'd love to see us try to target Jenner there vs Sutter).

 

Yeah, I'm not worried about Hogs at all

Edited May 6, 2021 by aGENT

[Bertuzzipunch]

1 minute ago, aGENT said:

Well, like I hinted at in that post, it more likely would be our '4th' line in ice time in that scenario. The Motte/Sutter (or other C) line would be our key match up/hard minute line and likely see closer to '3rd' line usage (though I'd love to see us try to target Jenner there vs Sutter).

 

Yeah, I'm not worried about Hogs at all

I also want them to take a run for boone jenner.

 

Pretty unfortunate Ferland didnt work out cause he woulda been a perfect guy for our bottom 6 when healthy. 

[aGENT]

1 minute ago, Bertuzzipunch said:

I also want them to take a run for boone jenner.

He'd be a PERFECT fit. Not sure I want to pay the trade cost to acquire him though...might be better waiting until he's UFA next offseason. 

 

1 minute ago, Bertuzzipunch said:

 

Pretty unfortunate Ferland didnt work out cause he woulda been a perfect guy for our bottom 6 when healthy. 

Yeah...that contract was a BIG risk for sure. If he was healthy though.... That lineup above with (healthy) Ferland on it...yes please.

 

Miller, Pettersson, Boeser

Pearson, Horvat, Podkolzin/Hoglander

Ferland, Lind, Podkolzin/Hoglander

Motte, Sutter, MacEwan

[Crabcakes]

4 hours ago, kloubek said:

I added my own opinions to your own in the quote. I think we're basically on the same page.

 

As for the 3rd line, if we could somehow land a 1st line LW (which may be a challenge) I actually see Miller taking that third line spot, then also being added to PP, etc. He likes playing center, but he would be wasted if we can't give him decent wingers to play with. Another alternative you mentioned is Sutter - who I would also be ok with keeping around on a smaller contract. I was thinking more like 2m, but who knows.

There's still the question if Beagle will be fit to play next season, is there not? If not, then I propose:

 

XXXXX Petey Boeser

Pearson Horvat Hoglander

Podz Miller Lind?
Motte Sutter BigMac

That looks like it could become a good 3rd line.  And Sutts as 4C too.  The catch with your line up would be finding a top line LW which is not easy to do.  Podz could become that guy 

 

There is some debate with Miller.  The options would be:

1. LW (as he is now)
2. 1C and shift Petey to the wing
3. 3C

But overall, as you said in your earlier post, they're closer than people think

[Fred65]

6 hours ago, aGENT said:

It's a rebuild...what did you think was going to happen? Multiple long playoff runs while bottoming out? Exactly what I'm talking about regarding realistic expectations. Seven years isn't a long rebuild FYI.

NYR started their rebuild in 2018, plus had the gumption to advise their paying customers in a letter.  They are currently 17 pts ahead of us. They sit 15th in the league with 58 points, (VCR has 43 pts and are 29th in the league) , NYR would be a point out of the play-offs if they were in the North Div. Funny enough the owner thought they weren't doing well enough and fired the GM and for good measure the club President too. In Vcr we're told after 7 years we're going to need a further 2 years to compete ... and nothing happens grits for the mill and the fans. I guess we have a high threshold for pain  

Edited May 7, 2021 by Fred65

[aGENT]

16 minutes ago, Fred65 said:

NYR started their rebuild in 2018, plus had the gumption to advise their paying customers in a letter.  They are currently 17 pts ahead of us. They sit 15th in the league with 58 points, (VCR has 43 pts and are 29th in the league) , NYR would be a point out of the play-offs if they were in the North Div. Funny enough the owner thought they weren't doing well enough and fired the GM and for good measure the club President too. In Vcr we're told after 7 years we're going to need a further 2 years to compete ... and nothing happens grits for the mill and the fans. I guess we have a high threshold for pain  

Not remotely similar starting points. WAY more saleable assets to kick start a rebuild, two draft lotto wins and Big Apple draw to attract guys like Panarin... It's not REMOTELY comparable.

 

And again, firing their management under those circumstances is not something we should aim to emulate. 

 

Try some critical thinking.

[4petesake]

8 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Not remotely similar starting points. WAY more saleable assets to kick start a rebuild, two draft lotto wins and Big Apple draw to attract guys like Panarin... It's not REMOTELY comparable.

 

And again, firing their management under those circumstances is not something we should aim to emulate. 

 

Try some critical thinking.

Funny, Rags fans are totally irate over Dolan firing Gordon and Davidson. General concensus seems to be that Dolan has gotten bored ruining just the Knicks. They were quite satisfied that the team was heading in the right direction. Comments like “l’m starting to think James Dolan might not be good at running sport franchises” are common.

 

Seems like Fred supports firing the GM and President no matter how well the rebuild is proceeding.

[kloubek]

7 hours ago, Crabcakes said:

The catch with your line up would be finding a top line LW which is not easy to do.  Podz could become that guy 

Agree with all this. I am just not convinced Podz has that high end ceiling, so we might have to look outside the org. We will see... hoping I'm wrong. This is where I think Toffoli really would have come in handy, but what's done is done I guess.

 

I think between the ED, buyout options, LTIR and a few other factors including a flat cap (and lower than expected salaries), that we should be able to squeeze the room under the cap, so then it's just what assets we'd he willing to give up if nothing materializes on the UFA front. Dont suppose Landeskog wants to switch cities for 5m per?

[Dumb Nuck]

12 hours ago, Bertuzzipunch said:

I dont care what anyone thinks but im really excited for next season. As long as petey and quinn are signed(which they will be). I like the potential we have so watever keep screaming fire benning if it makes u feel better lol

Perhaps you should Google the definition of insanity.

[Bad_BOI_pete]

40 minutes ago, kloubek said:

Agree with all this. I am just not convinced Podz has that high end ceiling, so we might have to look outside the org. We will see... hoping I'm wrong. This is where I think Toffoli really would have come in handy, but what's done is done I guess.

 

I think between the ED, buyout options, LTIR and a few other factors including a flat cap (and lower than expected salaries), that we should be able to squeeze the room under the cap, so then it's just what assets we'd he willing to give up if nothing materializes on the UFA front. Dont suppose Landeskog wants to switch cities for 5m per?

podz to me has proved he can be a elite forward, it might take 3-4 years to craft his game. but i also believe that he might have the tools to be a bergeron type of player for us. also you can work on your offensive techniques.  and if its true about him growing in his d+1, and d+2 year he will need time to fill out. this kid is a long term project. as longs as he plays his heart out, you will never hear me complain about his scoring. the scoring will come, as  long as he steps up his offseason game.

 

fun fact: if podkolzin  played  as many minutes or games as the top 2 leading scorers in  the khl playoffs he would have finished with 24gp 11g and 10A in 17.5 minutes a game. that would have him finish  third in playoff scoring. history has proven that khl players coming across sometimes will produce points at the nhl level . panarin was a ppg player in the khl and next year he was a ppg player in the nhl. podz could be a 25g 30a guy in his first year.

[IBatch]

14 hours ago, aGENT said:

It's a rebuild...what did you think was going to happen? Multiple long playoff runs while bottoming out? Exactly what I'm talking about regarding realistic expectations. Seven years isn't a long rebuild FYI.

The 7 year thing is just a way for JB haters to use for shock value.   Every fan, including the ones posting that, should or does know we were re-tooling, the same way Detroit did (and failed finally) for years, the same way SJ did for years and succeeding until recently.  Our re-tool ended in 2017 when Burrows and Hansen were sent packing (and waived to do it).   Sure one could frame it differently, but that's what management said they were doing around the Sedins last contract, and that's what they did.   Yes it prolonged things, but it allowed us to bottom out too once they could trade these guys (Bieksa too).   

[Guest]

17 hours ago, Fred65 said:

That's a fair prognostication ie there's more bad to come. If you're valuing a franchise as a business man that's not good. The fact that we have no fans in the building this year has worked in favour of the current management. If this team was owned by Dolan ( NYR** ) the management team would be gone a long time ago. You can't keep rinse and repeat and expect fans to fork out large lumps of money year after year. I understand you're a glass half full guy, and that's OK, my problem is you can't just repeating the same errors ( Pearson for  3 years at $3.3 at 28 years old ) He's not a top 6 winger and in 2 years time we're all going to kicking ourselves.

 

**  The NYR started their rebuild with "the letter" in 2018 and Dolan thinks things ain't making enough progress. Vcr started in 2014 and it's still fermenting

-We didn’t start a rebuild in 2014 

 

-Pearson is an average 2nd line winger by NHL standards. Are you comparing him to 1st line wingers and saying he’s not a top 6 guy? He passes the eye test and the analytics test. 

[Josepho]

2 hours ago, VancouverHabitant said:

-We didn’t start a rebuild in 2014 

 

-Pearson is an average 2nd line winger by NHL standards. Are you comparing him to 1st line wingers and saying he’s not a top 6 guy? He passes the eye test and the analytics test. 

He definitely doesn't. His 5v5 P/60 (1.13) is lower than guys like Jordie Benn and Tyler Motte. His production has been absolutely terrible this season relative to his ice time.

[kloubek]

23 minutes ago, Josepho said:

He definitely doesn't. His 5v5 P/60 (1.13) is lower than guys like Jordie Benn and Tyler Motte. His production has been absolutely terrible this season relative to his ice time.

This season, he has not produced well. But did you happen to forget he was on pace for over 53 points last season. That's more than acceptable. Also, many players on our team are underperforming this year.