The Defense of JB and co

[wai_lai416]

11 minutes ago, ilduce39 said:

Yes, Benning has made mistakes and bad signings, particularly around the cap. You can’t take a casual peek at Canuck related media without being inundated with them.   
 

I’ve been here the whole time - a lot of the moves made a lot of sense at the time but have since soured due to injury. 
 

There’s still enough capital built up that we have a legitimate shot at contention very soon even without Toffoli or Stecher.

until we have a legitimate norris caliber defenseman.. tbh we'll never be a serious contender... i mean look at all the previous cup winners.. what is a common theme a norris caliber defenseman.. Hedman, Pietrangelo, Carlsson, Letang, Keith, Doughty, Chara etc etc.. and this year again look at the team still remaining.. it's hedman pietrangelo, Weber, Hamilton, Makar/Girard etc etc. 

 

Hughes i think will eventually be better on his defensive side but he'll never be that 1A defenseman he's just simply too small.. ppl compare him to karlsson.. but ya karlsson is also 2 inch taller.. a bit heavier and a longer reach.. Hughes will be a great #2 defenseman but he'll never be in the conversation for norris.. all the norris winners have great offensive numbers and a very respectable defensive side. Hughes have the great offensive number but i think even when he peaks, he'll have an average defensive side which is still great but we probably still need that norris cailber guy if we ever want to contend.

[ShawnAntoski]

14 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

until we have a legitimate norris caliber defenseman.. tbh we'll never be a serious contender... i mean look at all the previous cup winners.. what is a common theme a norris caliber defenseman.. Hedman, Pietrangelo, Carlsson, Letang, Keith, Doughty, Chara etc etc.. and this year again look at the team still remaining.. it's hedman pietrangelo, Weber, Hamilton, Makar/Girard etc etc. 

 

Hughes i think will eventually be better on his defensive side but he'll never be that 1A defenseman he's just simply too small.. ppl compare him to karlsson.. but ya karlsson is also 2 inch taller.. a bit heavier and a longer reach.. Hughes will be a great #2 defenseman but he'll never be in the conversation for norris.. all the norris winners have great offensive numbers and a very respectable defensive side. Hughes have the great offensive number but i think even when he peaks, he'll have an average defensive side which is still great but we probably still need that norris cailber guy if we ever want to contend.

These type of players should be drafted and developed by the same team cause the acquisition cost is too much otherwise. 

[wai_lai416]

8 minutes ago, ShawnAntoski said:

These type of players should be drafted and developed by the same team cause the acquisition cost is too much otherwise. 

oh for sure they should be drafted.. problem is there's only 1 every couple of draft and usually one of the top 5 picks

[awalk]

54 minutes ago, ilduce39 said:

Yes, Benning has made mistakes and bad signings, particularly around the cap. You can’t take a casual peek at Canuck related media without being inundated with them.   
 

I’ve been here the whole time - a lot of the moves made a lot of sense at the time but have since soured due to injury. 
 

There’s still enough capital built up that we have a legitimate shot at contention very soon even without Toffoli or Stecher.

Yeahhh I hear ya. I've been here far too long myself. My main concern is the same guy who keeps making all these mistakes is still at the wheel. I know it ain't gonna change but harping on it in a 'defense of JB and co' thread seems fair game :D 

[Fred65]

17 hours ago, awalk said:

Yeahhh I hear ya. I've been here far too long myself. My main concern is the same guy who keeps making all these mistakes is still at the wheel. I know it ain't gonna change but harping on it in a 'defense of JB and co' thread seems fair game :D 

A pretty good sumation of where JB is at

 

Toffoli keeps twisting the knife in Benning and the Canucks - Vancouver Is Awesome

 

 

[awalk]

6 minutes ago, Fred65 said:

A pretty good sumation of where JB is at

 

Toffoli keeps twisting the knife in Benning and the Canucks - Vancouver Is Awesome

 

 

There's nothing new here. Benning and co apparently manage their time as well as they manage the cap. Very poorly.

 

“It was our intention to try and get him signed and if we could have had a little more time, we could have tried to work through that,” said Benning in February. “It got to a point where I know Tyler wanted to come back and we were trying to figure it out. We kind of ran out of time with him getting offers and one he needed to take. We would have had to move money out.” 

 

By the end of the season, however, Benning’s story had shifted again.

 

“It wasn't so much running out of time,” said Benning. “What had happened is the landscape shifted. We were going from possibly an $85-88 million cap to an $81.5 cap. We had to make hard decisions, knowing that we have Thatcher Demko that we needed to re-sign, Quinn Hughes and [Elias Pettersson]. So, we made tough decisions at the time.”

[Fred65]

Just now, awalk said:

There's nothing new here. Benning and co apparently manage their time as well as they manage the cap. Very poorly.

 

“It was our intention to try and get him signed and if we could have had a little more time, we could have tried to work through that,” said Benning in February. “It got to a point where I know Tyler wanted to come back and we were trying to figure it out. We kind of ran out of time with him getting offers and one he needed to take. We would have had to move money out.” 

 

By the end of the season, however, Benning’s story had shifted again.

 

“It wasn't so much running out of time,” said Benning. “What had happened is the landscape shifted. We were going from possibly an $85-88 million cap to an $81.5 cap. We had to make hard decisions, knowing that we have Thatcher Demko that we needed to re-sign, Quinn Hughes and [Elias Pettersson]. So, we made tough decisions at the time.”

Let's be honest Jim, you knew that moment was coming from the moment you traded for him, and, likely before the trade was consummated ..... I ran out of time, that is impossible 

[awalk]

2 minutes ago, Fred65 said:

Let's be honest Jim, you knew that moment was coming from the moment you traded for him, and, likely before the trade was consummated ..... I ran out of time, that is impossible 

hahah right? Did they wake up on July 2nd like OH $&!# TYLER

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Fred65 said:

Let's be honest Jim, you knew that moment was coming from the moment you traded for him, and, likely before the trade was consummated ..... I ran out of time, that is impossible 

Didn’t Benning kind of state that Tofu was a rental when the trade was made? He said things about Bess getting injured, and he thought the room deserved a replacement to help them get into the playoffs.  Personally I believed Tofu was a rental.  And that bubble experience was well worth the cost.  Now our young core has had a taste of playoff winning.  

[Fred65]

2 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Didn’t Benning kind of state that Tofu was a rental when the trade was made? He said things about Bess getting injured, and he thought the room deserved a replacement to help them get into the playoffs.  Personally I believed Tofu was a rental.  And that bubble experience was well worth the cost.  Now our young core has had a taste of playoff winning.  

I don't recall that but I'll take your word for it, none the less a blind man could see he was a perfect fit on the 'Nucks roster

[wallstreetamigo]

14 hours ago, awalk said:

There's nothing new here. Benning and co apparently manage their time as well as they manage the cap. Very poorly.

 

“It was our intention to try and get him signed and if we could have had a little more time, we could have tried to work through that,” said Benning in February. “It got to a point where I know Tyler wanted to come back and we were trying to figure it out. We kind of ran out of time with him getting offers and one he needed to take. We would have had to move money out.” 

 

By the end of the season, however, Benning’s story had shifted again.

 

“It wasn't so much running out of time,” said Benning. “What had happened is the landscape shifted. We were going from possibly an $85-88 million cap to an $81.5 cap. We had to make hard decisions, knowing that we have Thatcher Demko that we needed to re-sign, Quinn Hughes and [Elias Pettersson]. So, we made tough decisions at the time.”

Is it even worth it to point out the reason for the contradiction? 

 

Statement 1 = Benning unplugged, saying what is on his mind. People of course jump all over him partly because he incriminates himself and because, lets be honest, he is terrible talking to the media and usually makes himself look worse than he probably is in whatever situation he is talking about.

 

Statement 2 = a bunch of media consultants get together and craft a better message designed to minimize the negative impact of the first one.

[awalk]

8 hours ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Is it even worth it to point out the reason for the contradiction? 

 

Statement 1 = Benning unplugged, saying what is on his mind. People of course jump all over him partly because he incriminates himself and because, lets be honest, he is terrible talking to the media and usually makes himself look worse than he probably is in whatever situation he is talking about.

 

Statement 2 = a bunch of media consultants get together and craft a better message designed to minimize the negative impact of the first one.

Not really, because in both cases it looks like poor time and asset management.

[wallstreetamigo]

1 minute ago, awalk said:

Not really, because in both cases it looks like poor time and asset management.

The first one he suggests he &^@#ed up. The second one he blames outside circumstances he cant control. If you look over his history, he frequently does this same thing with almost every mistake he makes. That tells me its media white washing in action. I work daily with people in both the hockey and media consulting industries. I would bet good money someone altered the messaging for him to try to minimize the damage of his original statement.

[awalk]

3 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

The first one he suggests he &^@#ed up. The second one he blames outside circumstances he cant control. If you look over his history, he frequently does this same thing with almost every mistake he makes. That tells me its media white washing in action. I work daily with people in both the hockey and media consulting industries. I would bet good money someone altered the messaging for him to try to minimize the damage of his original statement.

Yeah I hear ya, I certainly agree that is what's happening here. I don't agree that in the second set of messaging, he reduces the damage if you really look at why they were in such a tight financial spot. Bad contracts he and his team gave to bottom 6 players meant we couldn't keep Toffoli without a buyout or a trade, and no other teams were willing to throw us a lifeline. So yes second statement reduces damage on the surface but it's just all bad.

[wallstreetamigo]

2 minutes ago, awalk said:

Yeah I hear ya, I certainly agree that is what's happening here. I don't agree that in the second set of messaging, he reduces the damage if you really look at why they were in such a tight financial spot. Bad contracts he and his team gave to bottom 6 players meant we couldn't keep Toffoli without a buyout or a trade, and no other teams were willing to throw us a lifeline. So yes second statement reduces damage on the surface but it's just all bad.

I dont disagree. Both statements do show a severe lack of ability to plan ahead rather than simply make reactive decisions.

[IBatch]

On 6/8/2021 at 7:21 PM, wai_lai416 said:

until we have a legitimate norris caliber defenseman.. tbh we'll never be a serious contender... i mean look at all the previous cup winners.. what is a common theme a norris caliber defenseman.. Hedman, Pietrangelo, Carlsson, Letang, Keith, Doughty, Chara etc etc.. and this year again look at the team still remaining.. it's hedman pietrangelo, Weber, Hamilton, Makar/Girard etc etc. 

 

Hughes i think will eventually be better on his defensive side but he'll never be that 1A defenseman he's just simply too small.. ppl compare him to karlsson.. but ya karlsson is also 2 inch taller.. a bit heavier and a longer reach.. Hughes will be a great #2 defenseman but he'll never be in the conversation for norris.. all the norris winners have great offensive numbers and a very respectable defensive side. Hughes have the great offensive number but i think even when he peaks, he'll have an average defensive side which is still great but we probably still need that norris cailber guy if we ever want to contend.

 Anyone comparing him to EK forgot just how great he was before Cooke severed his achilles' tendon with a foot stomp, and even after that sustained it for awhile longer.    Only other D not named Orr, Coffey or Potvin that was in the top ten in scoring three times.    Was robbed of one Norris only because the Doughty love at the time as blindingly over the top.   He could control the pace of the game and until his trade from OTT, was always in the Hart conversation too,  because no other team relied on him so much, and he could control the pace of an entire game.   He's a fitness gym freak, which helped his 6'0" 190lb frame away from the puck - with the puck there hasn't been anyone like him for generations.     Makar is a much better comp, and he has the luxury of playing with a whole lot better team then EK ever did aside from maybe his first year in SJ was he only played a little.   I doubt Makar would be putting up more points then Chabot currently is in OTT if that's where he played.   EK is also a righty. 

 

QHs is in his own category really.   He's no Reinhart or even Barrie, both those guys are/were built like blocks.   Housley and Campbell, maybe Rafalski would work.... but he's not like any of those guys either (yet anyways).     Potential for greatness is undeniable though.  No reason to worry much over the next couple of years, i'm sure his overall game will get better. 

[mikeyman109]

On 6/5/2021 at 2:37 PM, Bob.Loblaw said:

So how do you acquire a young elite core?  For Benning, it should be through the draft, which has been his greatest strength.  One of his biggest weaknesses has been free agency.  Benning on July 1st has become a meme for neutral hockey fans.  It's wild how many draft picks have quickly turned into NHL-level players.  Of course, Benning has also traded away that talent at pretty low prices.  Another concern is the lack of player development from the AHL.  I thought Gaudette and Virtanen were going to be core players that learned a lot in Utica but they both regressed terribly this year.  The only player worth noting is Thatcher Demko, where most of the credit is given to Ian Clark (who Benning might lose in the offseason).

 

At some point you need to give Benning responsibility for more than just his successes.  Otherwise I'm just gonna chalk up his good moves as being lucky.  Drafting Pettersson, Hughes, and acquiring Miller?  "Who knows how it would've gone?"  Nobody has the great secret to winning infinite Stanley Cups.  But every GM has their definitive vision towards the same goal.  And they should be deservedly judged for every good or bad decision they make.  If the dog ate your homework, too bad.

I agree the responsibility is on him to build a team. My point is that is doesn't happen linear. There is no straight line to success. We will see steps forward and steps back. If the steps backwards are too great JB will be in the unemployment line.I think that comparing one teams rebuild to another is always difficult as some decisions work out others do not. I love the leaf comparison as we can all agree their playoff success has not been great.

When healthy this team seems to be able to compete with most teams, there just needs to be more depth, a bit more size with skill,  a bit more speed and an ability to adjust in game to some situations teams throw at us. It can change in a couple players. it doesn't need a complete roster overhaul just a tweak or two and the young guys taking another step forward. Having Petterson healthy for a full year would help also as well as not playing the ridiculous schedule we had this Covid season. I look forward to next season, Hopefully with the divisions put back, fans in the building and a more entertaining effort from the team.

[Patel Bure]

I've been a huge fan of Benning throughout his tenure and have defended the logic behind most of his moves even if some of his pro scouting decisions didn't pan out in the way that we wanted.  Now having said that, there are three moves that I completely disagreed with.....one of which infuriated me.

 

1) Sam Gagner 

 

2) Ryan Spooner

 

3) Letting Toffoli walk (infuriated me......and this anger is growing as these playoffs roll on).

[Bure2Win]

By the time Benning figures out the defence and the bad contracts run out all our younger talented guys may be past they're prime?

[wai_lai416]

2 hours ago, Bure2Win said:

By the time Benning figures out the defence and the bad contracts run out all our younger talented guys may be past they're prime?

not really the only one that'll be looking at the 30+ would be miller