[Trade] Canucks trade Jay Beagle, Loui Eriksson, Antoine Roussel, 2021 1st-round pick, 2022 2nd-round pick, 2023 7th-round pick to Coyotes for Oliver Ekman-Larsson, Conor Garland

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, dougieL said:

Also:

 

The Canucks prioritized retention, while the Coyotes prioritized landing excess draft capital in the deal. Armstrong dragged Vancouver to upgrade the pick to a second-rounder, and then demanded a seventh-rounder to get the deal across the line. That was the final pound of flesh included in the deal, once the Coyotes agreed to retain about 15 percent of Ekman-Larsson’s cap hit.

 

This is consistent with Benning saying that Arizona wanted the second round pick (which, as he said, the Sedin's convinced him to give).

Without a doubt that was the worst trade in our club’s history. And our owner bares some responsibility too. He should keep his snout out of hockey ops. 

[Ballisticsports.]

Looking at this trade

Who wouldn't  not like to do this deal in reverse?

 

We gave up picks, added long term cap for players who still kept us at the bottom

They were not the type of players our team needed (at that time or now)

(OEL plays the same side as Hughes too)

Now we probably have to retain cap or more picks to move both

 This was a short term gain trade (and even then that failed) and not one for the future that the team needed at the time (not in hindsight as i said that then as well)

[dougieL]

2 hours ago, Ballisticsports. said:

Looking at this trade

Who wouldn't  not like to do this deal in reverse?

 

We gave up picks, added long term cap for players who still kept us at the bottom

They were not the type of players our team needed (at that time or now)

(OEL plays the same side as Hughes too)

Now we probably have to retain cap or more picks to move both

 This was a short term gain trade (and even then that failed) and not one for the future that the team needed at the time (not in hindsight as i said that then as well)

There are some people who think OEL is playing great, and say his underlying numbers are comparable or even superior to those of Hughes 

[Nave]

OEL was our second best defenseman last season. His defense has really fallen off though.
Hopefully adding Hronek stabilizes OEL, but the way things are going, we might be looking at a buyout before we really see them two together. 

[Timråfan]

1 hour ago, dougieL said:

There are some people who think OEL is playing great, and say his underlying numbers are comparable or even superior to those of Hughes 

If Benning hade made this deal when Loui, Beagle and Roussell had three years left of their contracts this deal might have been even.

Now Benning only traded away one year of those contracts and that is the reason this trade is so awful.

It’s irrelevant who said what because the deal was so one sided. 
The Coyotes had a real GM that knew he could bend Benning, we had a guy that wanted to save his job or face or whatever.

Desperate men do stupid things.

 

It took Allvin a little bit over a year to do the trade for an top RHD that Benning couldn’t manage to to under 8 years.

Wich is strange since he should have a lot of good contacts both by himself and his dad.

Edited March 18, 2023 by Timråfan

[Elias Pettersson]

1 hour ago, Nave said:

OEL was our second best defenseman last season. His defense has really fallen off though.
Hopefully adding Hronek stabilizes OEL, but the way things are going, we might be looking at a buyout before we really see them two together. 

It's not that hard to be your teams second best defenceman when your competition is Travis Dermott, Travis Hamonic, Tyler Myers, Brad Hunt, Noah Juulsen Guillaume Brisebois, Kyle Burroughs, Tucker Poolman, Madison Bowey, Jack Rathbone and Luke Schenn.  Every player on this list is a bottom pairing defenceman.

 

I get a kick when people say he was our 2nd best Dman last year, when we only had one actual top 4 Dman on the team in Quinn Hughes...

[Nave]

3 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

It's not that hard to be your teams second best defenceman when your competition is Travis Dermott, Travis Hamonic, Tyler Myers, Brad Hunt, Noah Juulsen Guillaume Brisebois, Kyle Burroughs, Tucker Poolman, Madison Bowey, Jack Rathbone and Luke Schenn.  Every player on this list is a bottom pairing defenceman.

 

I get a kick when people say he was our 2nd best Dman last year, when we only had one actual top 4 Dman on the team in Quinn Hughes...

You're not wrong. Didn't mean that to be a ringing endorsement.

[Elias Pettersson]

1 minute ago, Nave said:

You're not wrong. Didn't mean that to be a ringing endorsement.

Oh, I am not blaming you, you are just the messenger.  It's the people who are trying to convince everyone else that OEL is a top pairing defenceman in the NHL.  One poster even brought up the fact that he finished 7th in Norris trophy voting in 2013.  Imagine having to go all the way back to 2013 to provide evidence that OEL used to be good.  

[Nave]

5 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Oh, I am not blaming you, you are just the messenger.  It's the people who are trying to convince everyone else that OEL is a top pairing defenceman in the NHL.  One poster even brought up the fact that he finished 7th in Norris trophy voting in 2013.  Imagine having to go all the way back to 2013 to provide evidence that OEL used to be good.  

I hoped OEL would return to form with the Canucks. Anyone still defending this trade is delusional.

[iinatcc]

People blaming the Sedins on the OEL thing have to realize the Sedins were basically learning the role on the fly and basically on the job training (since they have no prior management experience at the time). 

 

Even if the Sedins approved and endorsed OEL to Benning, this would be like Benning asking interns on matters that great impacts the team long term.

 

But I doubt the Sedins were the deciding or even integral factor why the OEL trade was made. Even Benning isn't that naïve, is he? 

 

[dougieL]

57 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

It's not that hard to be your teams second best defenceman when your competition is Travis Dermott, Travis Hamonic, Tyler Myers, Brad Hunt, Noah Juulsen Guillaume Brisebois, Kyle Burroughs, Tucker Poolman, Madison Bowey, Jack Rathbone and Luke Schenn.  Every player on this list is a bottom pairing defenceman.

 

I get a kick when people say he was our 2nd best Dman last year, when we only had one actual top 4 Dman on the team in Quinn Hughes...

Scroll back and few pages and you'll see some that say OEL was our best overall dman last year 

[dougieL]

The fact that there was an internal debate over whether OEL's last couple of years should be treated as anchor years (see one of my previous posts) which ultimately did not get reflected in the deal, and the fact that Arizona requested Vancouver to increase one of the picks to a second (again, see one of the previous posts), along with Benning's own words (I can't find the SN650 interview anymore) in which said that the Sedin's convinced him to include the second round pick that Arizona wanted, and Daniel's ringing endorsement on a SN650 interview (link in a previous post), all speak to the fact that the Sedin's vouched pretty hard for him, regardless of whether they were interns. There is really no explaining away the Sedins' involvement in this trade.

 

Again, I'm not absolving Benning of the responsibility of this trade. He was the GM and he made the ultimate call, so he's ultimately at fault for the position this team is in. But he paid the price for it, obviously. On the other hand, I haven't heard many people acknowledge the role the Sedin's played in this trade, and that's what I want to highlight.

Edited March 18, 2023 by dougieL

[spook007]

On 3/17/2023 at 1:25 AM, dougieL said:

People who defend the Hronek trade - you need to understand that, in a capped league, you need to think about the SURPLUS VALUE that the player delivers. Is Hronek likely to deliver surplus value over the life of his next deal? Would you rather have the first round pick (in a deep draft) PLUS cap space or would you rather have Hronek? If you look at it that way, it's not as clear cut as you make it seem. 

When do you hope to see the Canucks make a push?

[dougieL]

1 hour ago, spook007 said:

When do you hope to see the Canucks make a push?

First off - I don't want to come off as antagonistic. Like all of you, I'm tired of seeing this team lose. If you're happy that the team is making a push now, I totally understand, and I'll be hoping for playoffs next season just like everyone else.

 

But I thought if we made some future-looking moves this season (e.g., all futures for Horvat, trade Kuzmenko for futures, don't acquire Hronek), and use the cap space that Hronek, Beauvillier, and Kuzmenko are currently occupying to take on a couple of contracts for future assets next year, we would have set ourselves up for a sustained window of competitiveness that begins the season after. We'd have a good prospect pool gradually coming in to deliver surplus value, and a ton of cap space to make improvements.

 

The problem I have with our current plan is - we end up with a good but not great pick this year, no NYI pick, and likely a middling pick next year. Hronek and Petey are up after next season, so it seems we have one season in which our key players are delivering good surplus value (I hope we didn't buy Hronek at his peak). After that, we're stuck with a mediocre prospect pool and not that many players delivering big surplus value. I think we can still contend for the playoffs, but I don't see a Cup in the future with this plan. I hope I'm wrong, of course.

[spook007]

27 minutes ago, dougieL said:

First off - I don't want to come off as antagonistic. Like all of you, I'm tired of seeing this team lose. If you're happy that the team is making a push now, I totally understand, and I'll be hoping for playoffs next season just like everyone else.

 

But I thought if we made some future-looking moves this season (e.g., all futures for Horvat, trade Kuzmenko for futures, don't acquire Hronek), and use the cap space that Hronek, Beauvillier, and Kuzmenko are currently occupying to take on a couple of contracts for future assets next year, we would have set ourselves up for a sustained window of competitiveness that begins the season after. We'd have a good prospect pool gradually coming in to deliver surplus value, and a ton of cap space to make improvements.

 

The problem I have with our current plan is - we end up with a good but not great pick this year, no NYI pick, and likely a middling pick next year. Hronek and Petey are up after next season, so it seems we have one season in which our key players are delivering good surplus value (I hope we didn't buy Hronek at his peak). After that, we're stuck with a mediocre prospect pool and not that many players delivering big surplus value. I think we can still contend for the playoffs, but I don't see a Cup in the future with this plan. I hope I'm wrong, of course.

I think, we all want a great prospect pool, and cap space and indeed to be able to get players on the cheap from others erc...

 

The only problem just now is, we almost have all the things we dream of getting. 
 

Petey, Kuz, QH, Demko and Miller are 5 players good enough for any team. 
Hronek we need to see, but if he is the player, some people, who have followed his career, says he is, then that makes it 6 players

 

1C, 1W, 2C, 1/2D, 2/3D, GK....

 

Is this not what we are hoping to get regardless at the end of it?

 

we'll have 2 years now, maybe 3 before they all need big pay rises. If it doesn't work, we still get excellent returns on anyone of them, should we decide to let them go... Kuz in particular is improving his value just about every game he plays...

 

We are still able to afford good support players like Mika, Beau, brock/garland to support them. 
 

If PA is able to ship out Myers or OEL ( both would be too much to hope for), the cap flexibility is right there for better d and payrises. 
 

The real question is probably, will this team with a few defensive d's be good enough to really compete...

 

I get your plan, but also feel we just keep kicking the can down the road. 
 

PS. I was also hoping to tank this season, and glad to see us with 2 1st round picks and a second, but if Hronek is anything like we hope he is, then perhaps its worth it. 
We've all seen both side of 1st round picks for our organisation... 

[Timråfan]

2 hours ago, dougieL said:

First off - I don't want to come off as antagonistic. Like all of you, I'm tired of seeing this team lose. If you're happy that the team is making a push now, I totally understand, and I'll be hoping for playoffs next season just like everyone else.

 

But I thought if we made some future-looking moves this season (e.g., all futures for Horvat, trade Kuzmenko for futures, don't acquire Hronek), and use the cap space that Hronek, Beauvillier, and Kuzmenko are currently occupying to take on a couple of contracts for future assets next year, we would have set ourselves up for a sustained window of competitiveness that begins the season after. We'd have a good prospect pool gradually coming in to deliver surplus value, and a ton of cap space to make improvements.

 

The problem I have with our current plan is - we end up with a good but not great pick this year, no NYI pick, and likely a middling pick next year. Hronek and Petey are up after next season, so it seems we have one season in which our key players are delivering good surplus value (I hope we didn't buy Hronek at his peak). After that, we're stuck with a mediocre prospect pool and not that many players delivering big surplus value. I think we can still contend for the playoffs, but I don't see a Cup in the future with this plan. I hope I'm wrong, of course.

How would that sustained window look like? What players do we have then when the window opens already the next season?

 

Petey won’t sign or want every pennie he can get if management go for a long rebuild as you suggest. Hughes leave the ship and don’t even turn around to look at the mess. 
 

Shipping Kuz and Hronek means you have to have real good luck with the picks coming back. If not we are back to Benning mediocre time again.

So I would really like to see what players you believe would lift the Cancks through the sustained window you’re talking about.

 

Are you sure you and Benning aren’t the same? 

How was it with the Sedins advise again? They really bend your arm behind you heh? 

[Alflives]

2 hours ago, dougieL said:

First off - I don't want to come off as antagonistic. Like all of you, I'm tired of seeing this team lose. If you're happy that the team is making a push now, I totally understand, and I'll be hoping for playoffs next season just like everyone else.

 

But I thought if we made some future-looking moves this season (e.g., all futures for Horvat, trade Kuzmenko for futures, don't acquire Hronek), and use the cap space that Hronek, Beauvillier, and Kuzmenko are currently occupying to take on a couple of contracts for future assets next year, we would have set ourselves up for a sustained window of competitiveness that begins the season after. We'd have a good prospect pool gradually coming in to deliver surplus value, and a ton of cap space to make improvements.

 

The problem I have with our current plan is - we end up with a good but not great pick this year, no NYI pick, and likely a middling pick next year. Hronek and Petey are up after next season, so it seems we have one season in which our key players are delivering good surplus value (I hope we didn't buy Hronek at his peak). After that, we're stuck with a mediocre prospect pool and not that many players delivering big surplus value. I think we can still contend for the playoffs, but I don't see a Cup in the future with this plan. I hope I'm wrong, of course.

Our key core players (add Hronek too) are at the right age as a group to win. Why would we rebuild? 

[Elias Pettersson]

6 hours ago, dougieL said:

First off - I don't want to come off as antagonistic. Like all of you, I'm tired of seeing this team lose. If you're happy that the team is making a push now, I totally understand, and I'll be hoping for playoffs next season just like everyone else.

 

But I thought if we made some future-looking moves this season (e.g., all futures for Horvat, trade Kuzmenko for futures, don't acquire Hronek), and use the cap space that Hronek, Beauvillier, and Kuzmenko are currently occupying to take on a couple of contracts for future assets next year, we would have set ourselves up for a sustained window of competitiveness that begins the season after. We'd have a good prospect pool gradually coming in to deliver surplus value, and a ton of cap space to make improvements.

 

The problem I have with our current plan is - we end up with a good but not great pick this year, no NYI pick, and likely a middling pick next year. Hronek and Petey are up after next season, so it seems we have one season in which our key players are delivering good surplus value (I hope we didn't buy Hronek at his peak). After that, we're stuck with a mediocre prospect pool and not that many players delivering big surplus value. I think we can still contend for the playoffs, but I don't see a Cup in the future with this plan. I hope I'm wrong, of course.

Unfortunately, your plan of trading Horvat, Kuzmenko, Hronek all for futures is the same plan that Buffalo has been trying to emulate for over a decade.  It has failed up to this point, even with multiple 1st overall picks.  Also, if your plan was actually put in place, you can say goodbye to Petey and Hughes, so then you are starting from scratch again, hoping and praying that you get another Petey and Hughes with all of the magic beans that you acquired.

 

A rebuild makes no sense when you already have your core in place.  The whole point of a rebuild is to acquire your core.  We already have our core.  We are looking for support pieces now...

[coryberg]

10 hours ago, Nave said:

I hoped OEL would return to form with the Canucks. Anyone still defending this trade is delusional.

I don't see anyone defending the trade on here. Only a broken record of people crying about it.

 

The trade happened, it was a bad trade, there is no going back, time to move on.

 

[ilduce39]

2 minutes ago, coryberg said:

I don't see anyone defending the trade on here. Only a broken record of people crying about it.

 

The trade happened, it was a bad trade, there is no going back, time to move on.

 

We get to the point where saying, “it’s not so bad” or, “we can work around it” is seen as “defending.”  
 

I wasn’t a fan of the move at the time, but it’s done.  No point in crying about it.