Controversial names and logos in North American major leagues

[lmm]

3 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

 

They can say it's this as Black Hawks. 

Now that is what I would call cancel culture

Just pick a new image and pretend it never happened

[JM_]

1 hour ago, gurn said:

Mind If I ask just who you are, to decide what "the communities in question should be honoured" about?

that one always cracks me up. They don't know what the word honoured means. 

[Gurn]

1 hour ago, drummer4now said:

I just assumed militaristic and white.

sorry

 

1 hour ago, drummer4now said:

 

No need to apologize, especially since I'm going to ask if you  think militaristic and white are somehow linked in a way that other ethnicities don't share?

[JM_]

37 minutes ago, Dekey Pete said:

Here's another point of view

https://blackhawkup.com/2020/12/18/blackhawks-breaking-teams-logo-controversy/

 

"While people are often quick to categorize the Blackhawks’ logo as one of a number of racially motivated epithets in sports, both the team name and the logo were created to honor the rich heritage of Illinois, and the name wasn’t originally a reference to Native Americans at all.

 

 

The founder of the team, Frederic McLaughlin, came up with the name “Black Hawks” in reference to the army division he served with in World War I, which was nicknamed the Black Hawk Division. It was this army division that was originally named for a Native American, not the hockey team.

 

While the team logo is obviously based on a Native American, it is honoring the image of Chief Black Hawk, the Sauk warrior who the army division named themselves after. While other sports teams, such as the former Washington Redskins, used a name and logo that was based purely on a racist trope, the Blackhawks have tried their best to always show respect to the heritage their team came from.

 

This is why I agree with the team that the logo should stay the same. Perhaps I’m a bit biased, having been a ‘Hawks fan for so long, but leaving my bias out of the argument, the Blackhawks have done a lot to show their respect for the team’s heritage and to hold up the numerous Native American communities throughout Chicago.

 

In addition, the team has previously acknowledged that some of their old practices were in poor taste, and have taken steps to move away from these controversies. In July, the team announced that they were banning the wearing of headdresses in the United Center during games. These headdresses were widely seen as cultural appropriation, and the ‘Hawks did the right thing in banning them.

 

The history of the Chicago Blackhawks is one that is long and rich. While the team’s logo is still seen as inappropriate or even racist by some, the fact is that the ‘Hawks have done everything possible to work with the Native American community to honor and respect their heritage.

 

This is what, in my opinion, separates Chicago from so many other teams that have been mired in controversy. Hopefully, relations between the team and Native Americans will do nothing but continue to thrive."

 

 

So how is this better? because it got recycled? 

[drummer4now]

48 minutes ago, lmm said:

OK, just wanted to be clear

I think there is a fine line that may have been crossed here, but like many things there is no black and white (oh, can I even say yhat?)

just as some first nations protest the pipeline, other support it

.

http://brentlynch.com/history/when I look at the bio, I think that Brent Lynch likely apprpriated the FN art within the Canuck logo

I did note that he and his siblings are caled a tribe in his bio, but did not find any ancestry

 

But the First Nations are a conflicted lot. After 200 years of genocide and appropriation, some are more assimilated and others more defiant

 

 

.from the "Indain Act"

“Our Indian legislation generally rests on the principle, that the aborigines are to be kept in a condition of tutelage and treated as wards or children of the State. …the true interests of the aborigines and of the State alike require that every effort should be made to aid the Red man in lifting himself out of his condition of tutelage and dependence, and that is clearly our wisdom and our duty, through education and every other means, to prepare him for a higher civilization by encouraging him to assume the privileges and responsibilities of full citizenship.”

.

From Duncan Campbell Scott

I want to get rid of the Indian problem. [...] Our objective is to continue until there is not a single Indian in Canada that has not been absorbed into the body politic and there is no Indian Question and no Indian Department.

 

 

 

I think it fair to say that the Indain Act has been successful to some degree but not fully, so that there is not one attitude from all First Nations 

As a result you will find some who identify as Canadians and other who identify with their Nations.

Fourth-fifth and sixth generations living off reserve tend to have a more conflicted view of who they are.

 

I had a buddy who called me up in 2010-11 and yelled "Indians" when the Black Hawks beat the Canucks

 

Yes, I think the Canuck logo should probably go.

Y

^{,Department of the Interior,
Annual Report for the year ended 30th June, 1876}

 

21 minutes ago, lmm said:

Given the First Nation oppession has been going on for 200 years in Canada

your claim that this is "Never Ending" seems a bit premature

 

First off now you’re putting words into my

mouth. 
 

I never once mentioned FN oppression or anything to that matter.

 
What I meant by “never ending” was about cancel culture and how it will never end with one thing to another till everything has been white washed. 
 

Also I suggest you brush up on history as the “Indian act” is widely opposed by FN people as nothing but hostile, any bad word imaginable. 
 

 

[Gurn]

14 minutes ago, JM_ said:

So how is this better? because it got recycled? 

It isn't.

It is very much like saying "I can use the N word, because Joe used it 40 years ago.

[drummer4now]

17 minutes ago, gurn said:

 

No need to apologize, especially since I'm going to ask if you  think militaristic and white are somehow linked in a way that other ethnicities don't share?

I haven’t seen very many ethnic people wearing Canadian Navy hats or what not toting white skin (not that it is bad or anything).  
 

Unless of course you’re comfortable being linked to the Taliban or something? because hey they love their humvees too! 
 

But anyway we can agree to disagree.. 

[Smashian Kassian]

 

1 hour ago, lmm said:

Given the First Nation oppession has been going on for 200 years in Canada

your claim that this is "Never Ending" seems a bit premature

 

 

Then why don't we shine a light on the actual oppression instead of white people making a controversy over things like who designed a hockey mask.

 

Indigenous people in this country living without guaranteed clean water and we are debating a sports logo. I'm sure most in this country would support our tax dollars going toward guaranteeing these communities live in first-world conditions, yet this stuff is rarely spotlighted.

[lmm]

1 hour ago, Smashian Kassian said:

 

 

Then why don't we shine a light on the actual oppression instead of white people making a controversy over things like who designed a hockey mask.

 

Indigenous people in this country living without guaranteed clean water and we are debating a sports logo. I'm sure most in this country would support our tax dollars going toward guaranteeing these communities live in first-world conditions, yet this stuff is rarely spotlighted.

yes I agree

however there are a rich few, not even necessarily living in this country who would lose mineral, oil, lumber rights if that were to happen.

I highlighted a small excerp from the Indian Act that shows ever so slightly the govenments historical view that First Nations people should be treated as children and assimilated.

The changing of sports names is very much a token measure.

Clean water, stolen land, broken promices, pipelines, fishing rights and the 215 and ever growing are all part of the problem.

So to say "Never Ending" when it comes to sports team names shows just how long some peoples attention span is where real change is concerned.

 

If, as you say "most in this country would support tax our dollars going toward guarenteeing these comunities live in first world conditions" you would think that something as simple a changing the Caucks logo would not be a stumbling block. However, most in this country find other things to concern themselves with, which always seems to back burner First Nations issues. I bet if you polled Canada or even Canucks . Com, you would find most would require a caviat before improving First Nations conditions.

Edited September 2, 2021 by lmm

[CBH1926]

On average indigenous person in Canada will die 9-10 years earlier than non indigenous person of the same age. Also in many regards FN population in Canada is in worse position than gasp………..AA population in the U.S.

 

Who cares about the sports, if Native Americans and First Nations are offended by these logos, go ahead and change them. In the meantime how about working on real problems that affect above mentioned population.

 

 

Edited September 2, 2021 by CBH1926

[lmm]

3 hours ago, drummer4now said:

 

First off now you’re putting words into my

mouth. 
 

I never once mentioned FN oppression or anything to that matter.

 
What I meant by “never ending” was about cancel culture and how it will never end with one thing to another till everything has been white washed. 
 

Also I suggest you brush up on history as the “Indian act” is widely opposed by FN people as nothing but hostile, any bad word imaginable. 
 

 

How am I putting words inyour mouth?

You said, "Never ending"

I said, "200 years of oppression"

As I mentioned above to SKassian, people lose interest when the conversation gets difficult.

Its easy to talk about sports logos but difficult when we dig to the root cause.

BTW the other 2 quotes both come from page 8 of "21 things you may not know about the Indian Act"

https://www.canadashistory.ca/explore/books/21-things-you-may-not-know-about-the-indian-act

 

and in my view, its not about whitewashing, it is about correcting current and historical wrongs

Edited September 2, 2021 by lmm

[Smashian Kassian]

25 minutes ago, lmm said:

yes I agree

however there are a rich few, not even nessecarily living in this country who would lose mineral, oil, lumber rights if that were to happen.

I highlighted a small excerp from the Indian Act that shows ever so slightly the govenments historical view that First Nations people should be treated as children and assimilated.

The changing of sports names is very much a token measure.

Clean water, stolen land, broken promices, pipelines, fishing rights and the 215 and ever growing are all part of the problem.

So to say "Never Ending" when it comes to sports team names shows just how long some peoples attention span is where real change is concerned.

 

If, as you say "most in this country would support tax our dollars going toward guarenteeing these comunities live in first world conditions" you would think that something as simple a changing the Caucks logo would not be a stumbling block. However, most in this country find other things to concern themselves with, which always seems to back burner First Nations issues. I bet if you polled Canada or even Canucks . Com, you would find most would require a caviat before improving First Nations conditions.

 

Lots of points here.

 

There's no doubt Canadian leadership of the past had an awful / racist / lesser view of the indigenous peoples, it was wrong and need to be recognized today. But I also don't think that sentiment is shared by the vast majority of Canadians today - even most right-wingers (though they are often easily branded as 'racists').

 

I don't really equate changing the Canucks logo to drinking water situations, especially as the Canucks seem to have great support from the indigenous community. That said if the BC indigenous communities - or the indigenous communities in Illinois - came out in a majority/universal way that they want these changed, then I'm on board. But their opinion isn't for me to declare / dictate, and frankly I don't like how white people use their apparent support as a crutch for what I view as self serving purposes.

 

There's lots of issues as you laid out, and many are nuanced problems that can be tough discussion to have (especially given our hypersensitive times) but all of these are more important conversations to have than sports logos or hockey masks. But they are more difficult & not sexy. 

 

 

 

 

[Hamhuis Hip Check]

I want the blackhawks to have to change their name just to piss off their fans. Yeah i may still be a bit bitter from the sedin era

[NHL'er]

4 hours ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

 

They can say it's this as Black Hawks. 

Or the black cocks? 

 

Edited September 2, 2021 by NHL'er

[4petesake]

It’s not my job to try to guess or tell First Nations and indigenous people what should offend them. My job is to listen to them when they tell me what does offend them and then help to bring about the change. If particular team names and logos are offensive and at the top of their list then that’s what we should be doing. If health care, modern schools, access to clean drinking water, etc are the real issues that need addressing we shouldn’t be wasting energy or losing focus by debating names and logos. It’s more important that we learn how to listen because it just might be more offensive that we are choosing the conversation for them.

[Rubik]

1 hour ago, 4petesake said:

It’s not my job to try to guess or tell First Nations and indigenous people what should offend them. My job is to listen to them when they tell me what does offend them and then help to bring about the change. If particular team names and logos are offensive and at the top of their list then that’s what we should be doing. If health care, modern schools, access to clean drinking water, etc are the real issues that need addressing we shouldn’t be wasting energy or losing focus by debating names and logos. It’s more important that we learn how to listen because it just might be more offensive that we are choosing the conversation for them.

oh my god that was so moronic. namecalling is usually not my first move, but my eyes rolled back into my head so hard reading this, so i just feel i have to call you out on this

 

1. even though some (most?) of us here are not indigenous people, i hope we are still allowed to have a conversation about this right?

2. this is a hockey forum, so i thought it was appropriate to discuss things that are related to sports. but i mean feel free to start another thread on "health care, modern schools, access to clean drinking water, etc are the real issues that need addressing", because we are definitely losing focus on those

3. i believe the more everyone talks about a topic, the better off we are. shutting down conversations like you did benefit no one. at least that's what i think, but you should definitely stop the virtue signalling, that's for sure.

4. i'm not saying that we should decide on anyone's behalf, but the more we talk about it the more perspectives will open up for us.

5. please just let the average joe/jane (regardless of their skin color) to go home after an 8-12 hour shift, open up a beer and have discussions online if they feel like it.

Edited September 2, 2021 by Rubik

[grumpyone]

change ALL teams names...

ie: Vancouver HC ( hockey club )

and only have the city name on the front of the jersey. 

unless the city name is deemed offensive, you now are safe. 

[JM_]

11 hours ago, gurn said:

It isn't.

It is very much like saying "I can use the N word, because Joe used it 40 years ago.

I think this designer puts it into clear perspective with this work https://glantz.net/blog/controversial-logos/

 

Zero chance the 4 logo's on the right are put on any team jersey. 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

14 hours ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

 

They can say it's this as Black Hawks. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackhawk_(DC_Comics)

 

Actually it would be cool if they just slightly altered their logo (and of course pay a license fee to whoever currently owns it) to match this.

 

"Led by a mysterious man known as Blackhawk, the Blackhawks (or more formally, the Blackhawk Squadron) are a small team of World War II-era ace pilots of varied nationalities"

 

 

[4petesake]

8 hours ago, Rubik said:

oh my god that was so moronic. namecalling is usually not my first move, but my eyes rolled back into my head so hard reading this, so i just feel i have to call you out on this

 

1. even though some (most?) of us here are not indigenous people, i hope we are still allowed to have a conversation about this right?

2. this is a hockey forum, so i thought it was appropriate to discuss things that are related to sports. but i mean feel free to start another thread on "health care, modern schools, access to clean drinking water, etc are the real issues that need addressing", because we are definitely losing focus on those

3. i believe the more everyone talks about a topic, the better off we are. shutting down conversations like you did benefit no one. at least that's what i think, but you should definitely stop the virtue signalling, that's for sure.

4. i'm not saying that we should decide on anyone's behalf, but the more we talk about it the more perspectives will open up for us.

5. please just let the average joe/jane (regardless of their skin color) to go home after an 8-12 hour shift, open up a beer and have discussions online if they feel like it.

Sorry you feel that way…

 

1. Yes

2. Yes it is appropriate. We don’t need another thread for clean water et al, it should be said in any topic remotely connected to indigenous issues.

3. Nothing wrong with the conversation or your thread. In fact I’m here reading these posts because I’m interested in the thread and the variety of opinions. I don’t virtue signal, I offer my thoughts.

4. I didn’t suggest you were. Conversation creates awareness which is needed specially considering some are so close-minded on the subject.

5. I don’t “let” or not “let” discussions go on, as matter of fact I contributed to it, although apparently not anything  you agreed with.

My point was (and maybe I didn’t make it well enough) that I don’t like searching for products, city/street names, statues, logos to take offence to. I think we do better when we leave it those who are genuinely offended to let us know and why. I am suggesting that people not jump to the conclusion that a name or logo is automatically offensive because it has some connection to indigenous peoples and culture. That is an opinion and a contribution to your thread. 
 

Lastly, I think you do better your usual way without the name-calling but it’s not the first and probably not the last time that someone has referred to something I said as moronic so no offense taken.