Elias Pettersson | Quinn Hughes - Contract Discussion Thread

[JM_]

25 minutes ago, RU SERIOUS said:

Calling Uncle Jim - "Uncle Jim" is actually a compliment as he's at an age where he should know better and have wisdom like my own Uncle Jim.   I actually love Uncle Jim - except have some doubts about his GM abilities.

maybe thats why you're Uncle Jims least favourite nephew. 

[knucklehead91]

53 minutes ago, RU SERIOUS said:

Another great take on the reality (not the illusion) of Uncle Jim's last gasp attempt to save his job - at any/all cost.   We've seen this sort of desperation to sell out the future by MG and it almost worked.  Hopefully Uncle Jim has it right this time and I would wish nothing more than for it to be the magic ticket to a cup - but of course i'm skeptical and worried because if we don't have success with a serious deep push in the playoffs - if not a cup win - (not just make the playoffs), then we'll be back to the drawing board for another 10 years with our next GM.  Fingers crossed and hope uncle Jim has the formula right!

Well you should stop worrying. We had a deep run in 2019-20 incase you completely forgot or just didnt watch.
COVID truly f***ed this season up for us and there is absolutely no debate about it. Next season we are a playoff team and I would say our 2021-22 roster is better than the 2019-20 roster that got handled by Vegas, by a long shot.

 

edit: If we had a healthy Pettersson, or if we didnt get COVID, or if we didnt have the worst scheduling in the league hands down.. we would be a playoff team this season. We would have made 2 consecutive playoff appearances. We could not overcome scheduling+COVID+No Pettersson all together. Any other combination of 2/3 issues and I believe we were a playoff team. All 3 obstacles were too much to handle

Our record was like 8-3-1 without Pettersson .667 before COVID. After COVID we were .500 without Petey. A winning record turned into breaking even

 

No offence, but you and quite a few other fans are ignorant to the ‘19-20 year that Benning assembled in the early stages of a rebuild. You guys are so stuck on what happened this past season in a strange, never going to happen again sort of season where a pandemic not only shut down the planet, but our team was deeply effected by the virus, where as every other team aside from Dallas, suffered nearly zero consequences from COVID. Dallas had a late start and a pretty intense schedule and they were a cup final team the year prior and missed the playoffs this season, same as Vancouver’s outcome due to COVID.
Both Vancouver and Dallas have the pieces in place to be playoff teams, its not as if we see starting from ground zero. Both teams will have a pretty successful season. Have faith man and forget all about 2020-21, it does not hold any weight over anyones successes or failures imo. Not every team had the same scheduling or hurdles to overcome. Injuries are part of every season and scheduling is pretty evenly spread out in a normal 82 game season. This was not the case at all for this season at all and I put up a huge post about it a few months back called “Feast or Famine” 

Normal seasons do not include a 1 month mid season shut down and then regular season games finishing up while the 1st round of playoffs is nearly half way over. Not to mention players being forced to play with lingering effects

Edited August 7, 2021 by knucklehead91

[FlyLow_]

2 hours ago, Jimmy McGill said:

people were saying that about Schmidt too. I don't think we'd need to retain on Myers at all. Just not expect a big return. 

The difference being Schmidt was 1 year removed from being a top pairing defender. Myers has never been one. He's not a top 4 d-man on a contender. I'll give credit where it's due, he was decent the last 2 months of the season. He's been brutal for the rest of his contract here so far.

[Dazzle]

4 minutes ago, FlyLow_ said:

The difference being Schmidt was 1 year removed from being a top pairing defender. Myers has never been one. He's not a top 4 d-man on a contender. I'll give credit where it's due, he was decent the last 2 months of the season. He's been brutal for the rest of his contract here so far.

 

If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, it's a duck.

[FlyLow_]

11 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

 

If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, it's a duck.

The key word there being EARLY in the season. Show me when he was a top pairing defender for a whole season on a playoff contender. Hell, he wasn't even top 4 on the Jets.

[DeNiro]

4 minutes ago, FlyLow_ said:

The key word there being EARLY in the season. Show me when he was a top pairing defender for a whole season on a playoff contender. Hell, he wasn't even top 4 on the Jets.

 

[Dazzle]

1 minute ago, FlyLow_ said:

The key word there being EARLY in the season. Show me when he was a top pairing defender for a whole season on a playoff contender. Hell, he wasn't even top 4 on the Jets.

The key word there that you used was "never".

 

19 minutes ago, FlyLow_ said:

The difference being Schmidt was 1 year removed from being a top pairing defender. Myers has never been one. He's not a top 4 d-man on a contender. I'll give credit where it's due, he was decent the last 2 months of the season. He's been brutal for the rest of his contract here so far.

Also, 2019-2020 was when we pushed into the second round of the playoffs. Were we contenders? We sure were.

 

Shifting goal posts just makes you look silly/dishonest.

Some passages from this article defending Myers.

 

https://canucksarmy.com/2020/03/02/tyler-myers-vs-advanced-stats/

 

When Tyler Myers arrived in Vancouver via the Free Agent Frenzy of 2019, he did so with a handful of caveats from those sharing their opinions on the signing. Expect a defenseman that can eat a lot of minutes and appear largely competent while doing it, so long as one is able to ignore his penchant for the occasional gaffe – and as long as one doesn’t look too hard at his on-ice analytics. In that realm of fancy numbers, they warned, Myers came out looking like a “replacement-level defender,” or worse.

 

Flash-forward to March 2020. Three-quarters of a season in, Myers is having an excellent first year with the Canucks – good enough to have renowned analytics experts like Thomas Drance describing him as “the guy who has been second-best of the Canucks’ defenders [in 2019/20].”

 

So, what’s changed? Not a lot, actually, when it comes to Tyler Myers’ advanced stats, which continue to be a contradictory and confusing mess. It seems as though Myers might be one of those players that advocates of the “eye-test” continually point to as evidence of the fallacy of analytics – the sort of player you really need to see to believe.

 

Analytics will tell you that Myers is a below replacement-level, or at the very least below-average, NHL defenseman.

Everything else will tell you that the Vancouver Canucks have significantly benefited from adding him to their blueline.

[knucklehead91]

30 minutes ago, FlyLow_ said:

The difference being Schmidt was 1 year removed from being a top pairing defender. Myers has never been one. He's not a top 4 d-man on a contender. I'll give credit where it's due, he was decent the last 2 months of the season. He's been brutal for the rest of his contract here so far.

Ummmm dude hes been here for 2 seasons. 1 of those seasons being COVID. He was our best dman all season last year, the year prior he was a hell of a lot better than people give him credit for.

In 2019-20 he had the 2nd most takeaways on the entire team with 42 and less giveaways than Tanev, Edler and Hughes. 

Edited August 7, 2021 by knucklehead91

[Alienhuggyflow]

32 minutes ago, knucklehead91 said:

Well you should stop worrying. We had a deep run in 2019-20 incase you completely forgot or just didnt watch.
COVID truly f***ed this season up for us and there is absolutely no debate about it. Next season we are a playoff team and I would say our 2021-22 roster is better than the 2019-20 roster that got handled by Vegas, by a long shot.

 

edit: If we had a healthy Pettersson, or if we didnt get COVID, or if we didnt have the worst scheduling in the league hands down.. we would be a playoff team this season. We would have made 2 consecutive playoff appearances. We could not overcome scheduling+COVID+No Pettersson all together. Any other combination of 2/3 issues and I believe we were a playoff team. All 3 obstacles were too much to handle

Our record was like 8-3-1 without Pettersson .667 before COVID. After COVID we were .500 without Petey. A winning record turned into breaking even

 

No offence, but you and quite a few other fans are ignorant to the ‘19-20 year that Benning assembled in the early stages of a rebuild. You guys are so stuck on what happened this past season in a strange, never going to happen again sort of season where a pandemic not only shut down the planet, but our team was deeply effected by the virus, where as every other team aside from Dallas, suffered nearly zero consequences from COVID. Dallas had a late start and a pretty intense schedule and they were a cup final team the year prior and missed the playoffs this season, same as Vancouver’s outcome due to COVID.
Both Vancouver and Dallas have the pieces in place to be playoff teams, its not as if we see starting from ground zero. Both teams will have a pretty successful season. Have faith man and forget all about 2020-21, it does not hold any weight over anyones successes or failures imo. Not every team had the same scheduling or hurdles to overcome. Injuries are part of every season and scheduling is pretty evenly spread out in a normal 82 game season. This was not the case at all for this season at all and I put up a huge post about it a few months back called “Feast or Famine” 

Normal seasons do not include a 1 month mid season shut down and then regular season games finishing up while the 1st round of playoffs is nearly halfway over. Not to mention players being forced to play with lingering effects

 

Before the season started the season started we knew the season was gonna be a grind and the teams that could avoid covid would have a big advantage, we also knew one Canadian team because of the uneven North (7) teams meant some whacky scheduling would happen and we knew with no pre-season teams that had a lot of turnovers would be at a disadvantage early in the season.

In typical Nuck fashion, every worse situation happened.

Our first 19 games were played in fewer days than any other team leaving no practise time at all, Hamonic didn't even practise with Quinn before the season started, so it wasn't surprising to see the team play some of the worst hockey id ever seen.

While we were playing 5 games in seven days with a group that had never practised together as a full unit, the rest of the north got to get their legs under them. But we knew that after the game 20 other teams would get their hell portion of the schedule and we would get some much-needed practice and like many of us hoped the team looked like a completely different team even when Petey went down while teams like the Habs started playing like we had been. I think we went like 12-6 and hadn't even gotten to the easy part of our schedule then we get hit with Covid and all the momentum was killed after a month off and the worst sports-related outbreak in NA, possibly all of sport.

We played our final 19 games in 26 days with multiple back-to-backs and with as many as nine regulars out and the guys playing looked like they were all going through opiate withdrawals.

But even with all of that happening the worst was watching the media have a field day writing false stories or creating an article everytime TT scored a goal or Tanev blocked a frigging puck. The media and the Benning haters completely turned on the team pointing to Quinn being a minus 23 but leaving out that the last 35 games Quinn was only a minus 1. Or the numerous threads claiming Petey was a flash in the pan and the most overrated player because of a terrible first 10 games.

No wonder Edler wanted out, the team and management who had the worst possible scenarios play out were thrown under the bus and instead of rallying around the team our media purposely led the witch hunt.

Even now when Benning managed to do what everyone says was impossible, people still bitch, now it's over signing Poolman for 2.5 who some actually say it's another LE type failure. It must suck to be so jaded that they cheer for Bennings moves to fail instead of hoping they workout which is ironic since they want Benning gone because they think he can't build a winner but when we do have success under him that doesn't seem to matter, it makes no sense at all.

 

[Dazzle]

6 minutes ago, Alienhuggyflow said:

 

Before the season started the season started we knew the season was gonna be a grind and the teams that could avoid covid would have a big advantage, we also knew one Canadian team because of the uneven North (7) teams meant some whacky scheduling would happen and we knew with no pre-season teams that had a lot of turnovers would be at a disadvantage early in the season.

In typical Nuck fashion, every worse situation happened.

Our first 19 games were played in fewer days than any other team leaving no practise time at all, Hamonic didn't even practise with Quinn before the season started, so it wasn't surprising to see the team play some of the worst hockey id ever seen.

While we were playing 5 games in seven days with a group that had never practised together as a full unit, the rest of the north got to get their legs under them. But we knew that after the game 20 other teams would get their hell portion of the schedule and we would get some much-needed practice and like many of us hoped the team looked like a completely different team even when Petey went down while teams like the Habs started playing like we had been. I think we went like 12-6 and hadn't even gotten to the easy part of our schedule then we get hit with Covid and all the momentum was killed after a month off and the worst sports-related outbreak in NA, possibly all of sport.

We played our final 19 games in 26 days with multiple back-to-backs and with as many as nine regulars out and the guys playing looked like they were all going through opiate withdrawals.

But even with all of that happening the worst was watching the media have a field day writing false stories or creating an article everytime TT scored a goal or Tanev blocked a frigging puck. The media and the Benning haters completely turned on the team pointing to Quinn being a minus 23 but leaving out that the last 35 games Quinn was only a minus 1. Or the numerous threads claiming Petey was a flash in the pan and the most overrated player because of a terrible first 10 games.

No wonder Edler wanted out, the team and management who had the worst possible scenarios play out were thrown under the bus and instead of rallying around the team our media purposely led the witch hunt.

Even now when Benning managed to do what everyone says was impossible, people still bitch, now it's over signing Poolman for 2.5 who some actually say it's another LE type failure. It must suck to be so jaded that they cheer for Bennings moves to fail instead of hoping they workout which is ironic since they want Benning gone because they think he can't build a winner but when we do have success under him that doesn't seem to matter, it makes no sense at all.

 

There's always someone in this fanbase that is looking to pin something on Benning, regardless if he had control or not. I remember the Miller situation - a lot of the so-called Benning bashers came out to say Gillis would've stood up for the team.

 

The narrative on Twitter/Reddit seems to be to hate Benning regardless of what he does. But I totally agree with the bolded. Our fanbase has this disease where people would rather be 'right' about something than for their team to win.

 

It's absolutely garbage. I don't understand how that would be 'supporting' your team.  It's quite antithetical.

Edited August 7, 2021 by Dazzle

[Alienhuggyflow]

35 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

 

If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, it's a duck.

Facts don't matter. Just like the fact that Nate had already started declining before he came here, or the fact that Myers was having his best season since his rookie season while rotating through numerous partners all season. People are so blinded by their hate for Benning it causes them to only see the one mistake but not the 10 good plays.

[Forsy]

8 minutes ago, Alienhuggyflow said:

 

Before the season started the season started we knew the season was gonna be a grind and the teams that could avoid covid would have a big advantage, we also knew one Canadian team because of the uneven North (7) teams meant some whacky scheduling would happen and we knew with no pre-season teams that had a lot of turnovers would be at a disadvantage early in the season.

In typical Nuck fashion, every worse situation happened.

Our first 19 games were played in fewer days than any other team leaving no practise time at all, Hamonic didn't even practise with Quinn before the season started, so it wasn't surprising to see the team play some of the worst hockey id ever seen.

While we were playing 5 games in seven days with a group that had never practised together as a full unit, the rest of the north got to get their legs under them. But we knew that after the game 20 other teams would get their hell portion of the schedule and we would get some much-needed practice and like many of us hoped the team looked like a completely different team even when Petey went down while teams like the Habs started playing like we had been. I think we went like 12-6 and hadn't even gotten to the easy part of our schedule then we get hit with Covid and all the momentum was killed after a month off and the worst sports-related outbreak in NA, possibly all of sport.

We played our final 19 games in 26 days with multiple back-to-backs and with as many as nine regulars out and the guys playing looked like they were all going through opiate withdrawals.

But even with all of that happening the worst was watching the media have a field day writing false stories or creating an article everytime TT scored a goal or Tanev blocked a frigging puck. The media and the Benning haters completely turned on the team pointing to Quinn being a minus 23 but leaving out that the last 35 games Quinn was only a minus 1. Or the numerous threads claiming Petey was a flash in the pan and the most overrated player because of a terrible first 10 games.

No wonder Edler wanted out, the team and management who had the worst possible scenarios play out were thrown under the bus and instead of rallying around the team our media purposely led the witch hunt.

Even now when Benning managed to do what everyone says was impossible, people still bitch, now it's over signing Poolman for 2.5 who some actually say it's another LE type failure. It must suck to be so jaded that they cheer for Bennings moves to fail instead of hoping they workout which is ironic since they want Benning gone because they think he can't build a winner but when we do have success under him that doesn't seem to matter, it makes no sense at all.

 

100%, I have been more tired of Canucks Pessimistic Media than the Canucks Defensive Woes, Biased Refs and Eriksson's Contract combined.

[DeNiro]

I guess this answers the question of who will become Canucks fans new whipping boy.

 

Something about those 6 million dollar contracts that just draws the ire of Canucks fans.

[Dazzle]

33 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

I guess this answers the question of who will become Canucks fans new whipping boy.

 

Something about those 6 million dollar contracts that just draws the ire of Canucks fans.

Horvat's making 5.5

 

Gudbranson though was not spared, and neither was Sutter.

[knucklehead91]

32 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

I guess this answers the question of who will become Canucks fans new whipping boy.

 

Something about those 6 million dollar contracts that just draws the ire of Canucks fans.

I can somewhat understand the frustration, but at the same time if these people were actual fans of not only the Canucks, but hockey itself, they might actually come to an understanding of  how some of these signings a) just didnt workout and b) these signings were all very well thought out prior to acquiring each player via trade or free agency… they just unfortunately didnt pan out. Believe me when I say that Benning put serious thought into his choices of each and every player if you break down the type of player, the years they had and the state of the team in each passing year… Guddy, Eriksson, Desjardins, Roussel, Beagle etc. All of the “worst” moves. As well as the Toffoli debacle which ive pointed out in the past multiple times, but there are some “fans” who still dont understand it.
Im working on a project right now in my spare time of breaking down Bennings moves, the timing of them, the contracts term and dollar etc from when he arrived, to when the Sedins retired to post Sedin era.

This team is on the up and up in a huge way, thanks to drafting and the key trades/signings will come at the right time.

[DIBdaQUIB]

On 8/6/2021 at 2:33 PM, Dazzle said:

What are you smoking, bro?

 

Claim: JB didn't fix the defense.  False. Huge overhaul.

 

Reality:

 

- Edler and his 58 PIM gone. How many of them were trips/hooks? Way too many.

- Schmidt -> 3rd round pick 2023, same price to acquire him. Had a bad year.

- Chatfield gone - depth defenseman

- Rafferty gone - depth defenseman

- Jordie Benn -> 6th round pick 2021 return -> Connor Lockhart selection for the Canucks

 

In:

- OEL - On paper, a big upgrade from last year, regardless of how you look at it, regardless if it is a gamble or not in the long term.

- Hamonic re-signed - steady for Hughes

- Tucker Poolman -  steady depth defenseman

- Jack Rathbone emerging/Olli Juolevi might have a big year.

- Luke Schenn - steady depth defenseman/previous chemistry with Hughes

 

And a bunch of Abbotsford acquisitions like Brad Hunt, Keeper and so forth that could step in from the AHL.

 

Claim: Almost emptied the prospect cupboard. False.

 

Graduated from prospect status, on the roster: Hughes, Pettersson, Demko, Boeser, Rathbone (potentially), Juolevi (potentially), Podkolzin (very likely on NHL)

 

Prospects to come: Jett Woo (likely one of top AHL defenseman, NHL ETA 2022-2023), Rathbone (if not NHL, will be in the AHL), Utunen, Dipietro (Starting AHL goalie, NHL ETA 2023), Jonah Gadjovich (AHL), Danila Klimovich (top prospect for us from 2021 draft), Arvid Costmar, VIktor Persson, Joni Jurmo, Jasek, Karlsson, Zlodeyev, plus the crop of 2020 & 2021 I haven't listed.

 

You have no clue about the team that you purportedly watch.

 

 

 

OEL has been trending down for years - wish and a prayer acquisition

The rest are all middle- of the pack or unproven d-men, and you left our Myers and his over-priced contract. 

You list 2 rookies who are unproven in the NHL and may not even make the team as an argument for addressing our defensive deficiencies? Who is clueless?

 

Listing a bunch of prospect's names doesn't make them top contenders for the NHL, Anyone can list names off a sheet. WE will have to wait and see how many of those prospects actually make it.  Certainly no for-sures in that group except DiPietro. 

 

 Mostly, we will have to wait and see how this team performs and if it has improved.  As many questions as answers in JB's moves. 

 

Maybe JB is a genius and all will come out as he hopes.  Maybe not. 

 

 

 

 

[Cat Man]

48 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

I guess this answers the question of who will become Canucks fans new whipping boy.

 

Something about those 6 million dollar contracts that just draws the ire of Canucks fans.

 

Edited August 7, 2021 by Cat Man

[4petesake]

1 hour ago, Dazzle said:

The key word there that you used was "never".

 

Also, 2019-2020 was when we pushed into the second round of the playoffs. Were we contenders? We sure were.

 

Shifting goal posts just makes you look silly/dishonest.

Some passages from this article defending Myers.

 

https://canucksarmy.com/2020/03/02/tyler-myers-vs-advanced-stats/

 

When Tyler Myers arrived in Vancouver via the Free Agent Frenzy of 2019, he did so with a handful of caveats from those sharing their opinions on the signing. Expect a defenseman that can eat a lot of minutes and appear largely competent while doing it, so long as one is able to ignore his penchant for the occasional gaffe – and as long as one doesn’t look too hard at his on-ice analytics. In that realm of fancy numbers, they warned, Myers came out looking like a “replacement-level defender,” or worse.

 

Flash-forward to March 2020. Three-quarters of a season in, Myers is having an excellent first year with the Canucks – good enough to have renowned analytics experts like Thomas Drance describing him as “the guy who has been second-best of the Canucks’ defenders [in 2019/20].”

 

So, what’s changed? Not a lot, actually, when it comes to Tyler Myers’ advanced stats, which continue to be a contradictory and confusing mess. It seems as though Myers might be one of those players that advocates of the “eye-test” continually point to as evidence of the fallacy of analytics – the sort of player you really need to see to believe.

 

Analytics will tell you that Myers is a below replacement-level, or at the very least below-average, NHL defenseman.

Everything else will tell you that the Vancouver Canucks have significantly benefited from adding him to their blueline.

When the team is losing people point to analytics, rightfully so. When the team is playing well and winning nobody cares except the nit-pickers who  bring them up, ie Juice telling the story of the team coming home on a 10 winning streak only to read that Steve Bernier hasn’t scored in 15 games.

[Dazzle]

17 minutes ago, DIBdaQUIB said:

OEL has been trending down for years - wish and a prayer acquisition

The rest are all middle- of the pack or unproven d-men, and you left our Myers and his over-priced contract. 

You list 2 rookies who are unproven in the NHL and may not even make the team as an argument for addressing our defensive deficiencies? Who is clueless?

 

Listing a bunch of prospect's names doesn't make them top contenders for the NHL, Anyone can list names off a sheet. WE will have to wait and see how many of those prospects actually make it.  Certainly no for-sures in that group except DiPietro. 

 

 Mostly, we will have to wait and see how this team performs and if it has improved.  As many questions as answers in JB's moves. 

 

Maybe JB is a genius and all will come out as he hopes.  Maybe not. 

 

 

 

 

That wasn't what you originally said. You said:

 

On 8/2/2021 at 8:05 PM, DIBdaQUIB said:

Jb didn't fix the defense. He is gambling that OEL can resurrect himself. If he can't, the contract will be an albatross.  He has almost emptied the prospect cupboard. Maybe he's a genius and all of it will lead to a cup which I will certainly cheer for as I have since they came into the league.  I just see too much  "hope" in JB's approach. 

Shifting the goal posts now to mean "top contenders for the cup" is flat out dishonest. For shame.

 

Also, look at how much an anchor you are to this fanbase. At no point did JB guarantee a cup. This was about making the playoffs, which I think this current iteration CAN do. There are no 'for sures' in that list, otherwise they wouldn't be prospects.

 

The prospect list is for sure miles better than all the junk Gillis left behind though.  Why wouldn't there be reason for hope?

 

If you're so dead set on the team failing, why cheer for this team?   Just cheer a "for sure" team like Tampa instead. So much easier than hearing fans like you whine about something being 'for sure'. There is no such thing as that.

 

I don't cheer for the Canucks because it's a 'for sure' team. Your sentiments are consistent with a bandwagoner fan.

[wai_lai416]

6 hours ago, Jimmy McGill said:

I'm talking about going the distance, 4 1sts. If someone does that to Petey, we can turn around and do that to someone else. 

lol and which RFA out there is worth 4 1st rounder? 100% sure all the teams out there will laugh and gladly take the 4 1st lol.. 4 1st rounder is more than enough to literally trade for anyone in the league except a couple or the 1st overall etc..