Coaching Staff

[MaxVerstappen33]

1 hour ago, kanucks25 said:

I imagine that's 5.5 over 2 years (2.75 AAV) and even that seems high for Green lol

Babcocks was 6 million and that's a cup winner and high profile coach on a big baller team. Is Green really worth a bit less than half that ? Nah. I guess its just business. Anyone who climbs their way to that level of an executive position gets the money.

 

If our biggest problem we can identify is the coach then that's not really a bad thing.

[kanucks25]

10 minutes ago, MaxVerstappen33 said:

Babcocks was 6 million and that's a cup winner and high profile coach on a big baller team. Is Green really worth a bit less than half that ? Nah. I guess its just business. Anyone who climbs their way to that level of an executive position gets the money.

 

If our biggest problem we can identify is the coach then that's not really a bad thing.

I believe typically rookie coaches make under 2M.

 

Considering this is Green's 2nd contract, 2.75 makes sense.

 

It's just that he should have been fired instead of given a raise. 

[Patel Bure]

On 10/31/2021 at 1:08 PM, JM_ said:

I think we're fortunate to have these two as a base to work with. Clark is kind of an independent operator so I don't think changes will effect him. 

 

I guess the big question I have more than anything else, is why are we seeing this team struggle in the same manner as previous years with so much more talent now?

I think a large part of it has to do with Petey and Brock’s lackluster play.  Brock missed a bit of preseason with an injury while Pettersson got injured In preseason as well apparently.   There’s only so much that Miller, Horvat, and Garland can do. 
 

We are basically playing without a 1st line right now.  To add to that, a lot of Green’s decisions have just been puzzling to say the very least (ie his benching of Garland and Podkolzin, along with what appears to be an infatuation with guys like Chiasson, Highmore, and Dowling).  
 

Our Power play and offensive attack in general has become extremely predictable.  All of this points to coaching in my opinion.  Bring in Claude Julien.  Serenity now!

[Dazzle]

1 hour ago, kanucks25 said:

I believe typically rookie coaches make under 2M.

 

Considering this is Green's 2nd contract, 2.75 makes sense.

 

It's just that he should have been fired instead of given a raise. 

WD + Green = cheap coaches

 

But the whole cheapness factor of Aquilini doesn't make sense because he's spending so much money on the players. Why wouldn't you get a high powered coach to unlock their potential?

 

Green has shown very little so far to deserve his current contract. The extension in my mind was a huge misstep.

[48MPHSlapShot]

9 hours ago, Dazzle said:

But the whole cheapness factor of Aquilini doesn't make sense because he's spending so much money on the players. Why wouldn't you get a high powered coach to unlock their potential?

The Canucks are always going to be a cap team, it's just a matter of how that money is allocated. It's going to be spent regardless. It's outside of the roster where he can cheap out  and penny pinch if he wants. 

Edited November 2, 2021 by 48MPHSlapShot

[Dazzle]

32 minutes ago, 48MPHSlapShot said:

The Canucks are always going to be a cap team, it's just a matter of how that money is allocated. It's going to bensoent regardless. It's outside of the roster where he can cheap out  and penny pinch if he wants. 

Well, he's gonna have to spend money to fire these coaches if he wants to see results. Green's coaching has been questionable, and I'm glad he's under the scrutiny..

Edited November 1, 2021 by Dazzle

[wallstreetamigo]

8 hours ago, Dazzle said:

WD + Green = cheap coaches

 

But the whole cheapness factor of Aquilini doesn't make sense because he's spending so much money on the players. Why wouldn't you get a high powered coach to unlock their potential?

 

Green has shown very little so far to deserve his current contract. The extension in my mind was a huge misstep.

Aquilini has been notorious since shortly after Benning arrived for cheaping out on anything non roster related. The front office has been reduced to a shell of what it used to be. It’s widely regarded as one of the thinnest in the NHL actually. Coaching - the same thing.
 

Even if they were all in on Green, keeping Baumgartner and hiring King and Gustafson just puts an exclamation point on cheap trumping quality to them in terms of coaching.

 

To me, keeping the coaching staff and adding more rookie coaches to it should really be a fireable offense at this point. It has limited the potential of all the other big money he spent.

[wallstreetamigo]

8 hours ago, 48MPHSlapShot said:

The Canucks are always going to be a cap team, it's just a matter of how that money is allocated. It's going to bensoent regardless. It's outside of the roster where he can cheap out  and penny pinch if he wants. 

And it’s where he does

[DownUndaCanuck]

The real question is, when do we make a coaching change? An early-season change still gives the new team some time to build a decent system and let the guys buy-in. A mid-season (eg. Christmas) change is really a gamble on a lot of teams - some turn things right around and go on crazy runs, others get worse and then get better the following season.

I am not optimistic by what JB has said - he really sounds like a big Green fan and I hope JB doesn't go down with the ship/coach on this one. If JB doesn't have the balls to fire his terrible coaches then he deserves to be fired as well and I'd hate to think that's the reason he goes because for me, I've been pretty happy with JB's moves and roster he's created on paper, it's just not translating on ice. We need to find a coach that suits and matches these players.

 

We don't need an "AHL coach who's good with young players" anymore. We need a bonified NHL winning coach who knows how to grind through an NHL season and win in the playoffs.

 

Calgary is the obvious team to point out what can happen when you have a coach like Suter who knows how to win, play a hard, ugly defensive game, and pairs that with some good defensive players and a star goalie. 

 

We've got similar pieces - arguably 5 top-4 NHL defencemen, a young star goalie and a great top-6 forward group, with some pretty gritty bottom-6 guys. We've got a playoff team on our hands, we just don't know how to use them and how to all play together. A coach like Tortorella is obviously a gamble and trouble for any team, he's broken us once and I would be hesitant to go back, but there's got to be some others out there. We should have taken our chances in the off-season when Gallant was available really.

 

Currently, there's some talk of the old Montreal assistant Kirk Mueller (although we don't want another project, ideally someone who has coached at the NHL level before right up top and won playoff games). The main names out there (I think?) are Boudreau, Julien, Babcock, John Stevens and Bylsma. 

 

Honestly some of them are risky but I'd be happy with one of the first two. Boudreau has had success everywhere he's gone. He usually plays a pretty up-beat, offensive style but showed in Minnesota he can play well defensively at times too. Doesn't matter who, we just need an NHL coach who has some good defensive structures and assistant coaches to bring to the table because right now the only coach we should keep is Clarke.

[N4ZZY]

On 10/31/2021 at 1:45 PM, -DLC- said:

One thing I will say is this....some here think it's much easier to win a SC than it is.

 

These are  current active coaches who have more than one SC win (and by more than one, I mean 2) at least according to the list I checked:

 

Jon Cooper

Mike Sullivan

Darryl Sutter

Joel Cringeville

 

Coaches with one:  Craig Berube, Torts, Julien, Trotz

 

Some of us talk like you just slot in a "winning coach" but they're in great demand.  

 

I've been talking about my openness to a change...but I also know it's slim pickings out there and it's very much a "be careful what you wish for" deal.  

 

https://records.nhl.com/records/coach-records

Torts was here for a year. He had won a SC with Tampa Bay, but when he came here, things just fell apart. Just because a coach has won somewhere, doesn't mean they can win here. 

 

Out of the four that you've named. The only coach that's available is Joel Q. And with everything that has happened, I'd rather the organization and team I cheer for, not go there. 

Stay away from him at all costs, I don't care if he won 10 Stanley Cups. What he did was/is deplorable, and we don't need men/people like that in the organization. 

 

[DownUndaCanuck]

Green had a 0.433 point % as a Canuck coach over the last 4 seasons, and it's probably a bit lower now including this season too. That's just consistently not good enough, I don't know why we keep giving him a chance. We haven't seen continued improvement, we had one good season 2 years ago (and it was only barely good enough for the playoffs), and since then we've regressed again.

 

I could understand why we'd keep him if we kept improving but that good season was one small blip, the rest of the on-ice product has been virtually the same - playing at around 0.400 hockey which is laughable.

 

With bad on-paper teams like Arizona (and us 3-4 years ago), the coach gets a free pass, but JB has constructed an NHL playoff-worthy team on paper (IMO) and Green still isn't producing on-ice, I think the writing is really on the wall here and not sure how long JB is going to wait.

[thrago]

On 11/1/2021 at 3:24 AM, AV. said:

Ehh, not really pumping or deflating tires here.  I'm just dispelling this false narrative that Gillis was some sort of Julien BriseBois where all he had to really do was add a Coleman or Goodrow type player to the team.  As I pointed out, Gillis added many vets and depth players at important positions over the course of his first few years.  He also did a lot of work behind the scenes with sleep/fitness/etc to improve performance. 

Yes, pieces were in place from Burke and Nonis but they were just that: pieces.  Beyond Luongo and the Sedins (who, let's be honest, were borderline PPG players with 1 year remaining on their contracts when Gillis took over), there was no "core" in place.  Kesler and Burrows looked like bottom-six guys, and while they had positive seasons in 2007/08, they were nowhere near the levels they hit during the Gillis years.  Everybody would be lying if they said they saw Alex Burrows becoming a top six forward or Kesler becoming a 40 goal, Selke winner.  Edler showed promise but was far from proven at just 22.  Bieksa talented but coming off a huge laceration injury. 

 

The real core he took over was Naslund, Morrison, Ohlund, etc - all guys he replaced and phased out almost immediately.  It took more than just tweaking or minor moves to tie the division-winning/PT teams together.  None of this makes Gillis an amazing GM but it more fairly contextualizes the work he actually did as GM here than some have tried to dismiss as the work of his predecessors.

Why do we have to hate one GM to like the other?  I liked Gillis he did what he had to do to try and win a Cup and it almost worked.  That being said he left Benning a tire fire because of that and it took Benning a long time to put it out for good reason.  Gillis did a great job identifying the weaknesses in the roster and fixing them.  Benning has had to completely rebuild the roster now we will find out if he can plug the holes and do what Gillis did.  I hope Benning has till the end of his contract to do that cause I think he deserves a chance to see this through but if not then it might be time to look elsewhere.  

 

As for Green I think the little melt down that some of the players had when Markstrom, Tanev and Toffu didn't sign is the only reason Green is still here.  I can't recall who all the players where that spoke up to re-sign Green where but I believe EP and QH where two of them.  IMO that's the only reason Green is here.  How else can you explain waiting till the offseason to re-sign him? I can't recall ever seeing that happen before with a coach.  I'm actually pretty disappointed with the little whinny Baby act that some of the players had last year and the sense of entitlement some have shown.

 

I think a couple players that needed it have taken a big piece of humble pie this year and hopefully they will be better because of it.    

[Dazzle]

13 hours ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Aquilini has been notorious since shortly after Benning arrived for cheaping out on anything non roster related. The front office has been reduced to a shell of what it used to be. It’s widely regarded as one of the thinnest in the NHL actually. Coaching - the same thing.
 

Even if they were all in on Green, keeping Baumgartner and hiring King and Gustafson just puts an exclamation point on cheap trumping quality to them in terms of coaching.

 

To me, keeping the coaching staff and adding more rookie coaches to it should really be a fireable offense at this point. It has limited the potential of all the other big money he spent.

I am still not sure if he is cheap or not, but I can understand why you said the above. I also agree with you that hiring incompetent coaches (when they've proven to be the case) is fireable. 

[-AJ-]

1 hour ago, Dazzle said:

I am still not sure if he is cheap or not, but I can understand why you said the above. I also agree with you that hiring incompetent coaches (when they've proven to be the case) is fireable. 

Was Green proven to be incompetent at the time of his hiring or are you referring to other coaches? Green took Utica to the Calder Cup Finals in 2015.

[Dazzle]

4 hours ago, -AJ- said:

Was Green proven to be incompetent at the time of his hiring or are you referring to other coaches? Green took Utica to the Calder Cup Finals in 2015.

He hasn't made the playoffs once for the Canucks, except in the bubble. Even with the Bubble, his win percentage barely surpasses WD. That is flat out sad because WD's rosters were garbage. Green has had much better players.

Edited November 3, 2021 by Dazzle

[-AJ-]

40 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

He hasn't made the playoffs once for the Canucks, except in the bubble. Even with the Bubble, his win percentage barely surpasses WD. That is flat out sad because WD's rosters were garbage. Green has had much better players.

True. That said, once we were in the bubble, we exceeded expectations. Do we give credit to Green there or does his coaching only apply in the regular season?

[whysoserious]

11 hours ago, thrago said:

Why do we have to hate one GM to like the other?  I liked Gillis he did what he had to do to try and win a Cup and it almost worked.  That being said he left Benning a tire fire because of that and it took Benning a long time to put it out for good reason.  Gillis did a great job identifying the weaknesses in the roster and fixing them.  Benning has had to completely rebuild the roster now we will find out if he can plug the holes and do what Gillis did.  I hope Benning has till the end of his contract to do that cause I think he deserves a chance to see this through but if not then it might be time to look elsewhere.  

 

As for Green I think the little melt down that some of the players had when Markstrom, Tanev and Toffu didn't sign is the only reason Green is still here.  I can't recall who all the players where that spoke up to re-sign Green where but I believe EP and QH where two of them.  IMO that's the only reason Green is here.  How else can you explain waiting till the offseason to re-sign him? I can't recall ever seeing that happen before with a coach.  I'm actually pretty disappointed with the little whinny Baby act that some of the players had last year and the sense of entitlement some have shown.

 

I think a couple players that needed it have taken a big piece of humble pie this year and hopefully they will be better because of it.    

This is such a bad take. Benning has created bigger tire fires than Gillis ever did, The only mess that Benning spent cleaning up is his own. Numerous bad contracts given out: Beagle, Rousell, Player Name, Sutter, Holtby, Virtanen. Selling prospects and draft picks for replacement level players: Pedan, Gudbransson, Vey, Poulliot, Granlund, Baertschi, Clendening, Prust. Constantly losing players for nothing. It’s been 8 years, Gillis’s name shouldn’t even be brought up at this point, the blame lies solely on Benning. 

[Dazzle]

34 minutes ago, whysoserious said:

This is such a bad take. Benning has created bigger tire fires than Gillis ever did, The only mess that Benning spent cleaning up is his own. Numerous bad contracts given out: Beagle, Rousell, Player Name, Sutter, Holtby, Virtanen. Selling prospects and draft picks for replacement level players: Pedan, Gudbransson, Vey, Poulliot, Granlund, Baertschi, Clendening, Prust. Constantly losing players for nothing. It’s been 8 years, Gillis’s name shouldn’t even be brought up at this point, the blame lies solely on Benning. 

Actually, your take is very bad. Gillis left a huge mess for someone else to clean up. Next to no prospect pool. Yes, he squandered the treasure chest for the cup runs. He didn't develop anything for the future generation. No defenseman to replace Edler. No goalie to replace Schneider.

 

And yeah, he might have had Horvat, but he traded his only asset in goal for that.

 

Gillis was captain of a sinking ship because he didn't really know how to navigate the seas. Do you see him GMing in the future? He's been passed over many, many times, for good reason. He had a negative reputation around the league with GMs, so trades were often rip-offs for the Canucks.

 

Remember the 1st round pick (25th overall) + Grabner for Ballard?

 

Yet another example of him bleeding assets. So yeah, Benning has his own problems, but if you're gonna paint Gillis as some kind of 'better' alternative, you are fooling yourself.

[whysoserious]

28 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

Actually, your take is very bad. Gillis left a huge mess for someone else to clean up. Next to no prospect pool. Yes, he squandered the treasure chest for the cup runs. He didn't develop anything for the future generation. No defenseman to replace Edler. No goalie to replace Schneider.

 

And yeah, he might have had Horvat, but he traded his only asset in goal for that.

 

Gillis was captain of a sinking ship because he didn't really know how to navigate the seas. Do you see him GMing in the future? He's been passed over many, many times, for good reason. He had a negative reputation around the league with GMs, so trades were often rip-offs for the Canucks.

 

Remember the 1st round pick (25th overall) + Grabner for Ballard?

 

Yet another example of him bleeding assets. So yeah, Benning has his own problems, but if you're gonna paint Gillis as some kind of 'better' alternative, you are fooling yourself.

Who has JB developed to replace Edler? We still don’t have a defensemen that can be relied on to play in all scenarios. OEL is older than Edler was when JB took over. 

 

Last I checked, Markstrom was acquired by Gillis. 

 

JB traded a Mccann, 2nd (33rd overall) and 4th for Gudbransson. The difference between Gillis and Benning is Gillis made that trade while the team was a contender whereas Benning made the trade while we were a lottery team. Not to mention all the other draft picks he threw away, 2nd for Baertschi, 2nd for Vey, etc, and losing players for nothing. If anyone bled assets, it was Benning. 

 

At end the of day, the fact remains the same: it’s been 8 years of mediocrity. You can’t really blame Gillis anymore. 

[Dazzle]

2 minutes ago, whysoserious said:

Who has JB developed to replace Edler? We still don’t have a defensemen that can be relied on to play in all scenarios. OEL is older than Edler was when JB took over. 

 

Last I checked, Markstrom was acquired by Gillis. 

 

JB traded a Mccann, 2nd (33rd overall) and 4th for Gudbransson. The difference between Gillis and Benning is Gillis made that trade while the team was a contender whereas Benning made the trade while we were a lottery team. Not to mention all the other draft picks he threw away, 2nd for Baertschi, 2nd for Vey, etc, and losing players for nothing. If anyone bled assets, it was Benning. 

 

At end the of day, the fact remains the same: it’s been 8 years of mediocrity. You can’t really blame Gillis anymore. 

Look no further than the fact that Gillis, in all his years as GM, could not develop a SINGLE NHL defenseman, minus Hutton.

 

And then when you look at how bad our prospect pool was - it took YEARS to get to this point, and we are still haunted by Gillis' poor, poor draft choices/development.

 

Gillis' legacy still lives on, even today. Simply burying it as "it's been 8 years" absolves Gillis of his inept management. Benning tried to restock the cabinet, while fielding an exciting roster. It's not really much of a debate that the experiment had mixed results. That being said, Benning has drafted far more players than what Gillis ever did, in all rounds.

 

You can't just use the 1st round excuse for Benning. He has drafted our starting goalie, for crying out loud, in the 2nd round. What has Gillis done for development? All he's done was to spend what Burke + Nonis had achieved.