FIRE Jim Benning & Travis Green Thread

[lmm]

2 hours ago, Hairy Kneel said:

We can hire from within

Shaw for now

Deal with the upstairs IF that's what AQ

decides, from now till the off season. 

JB would be great for the draft. 

JB couldn't have predicted Hamonic having problems or Petie's terrible slump. 

But I agree JB had a terrible UFA season. We got more bottom feeders on our bottom 6 and no RD for back up. 

I don't think anyone could've foreseen the absolute crap our PK has been. But I blame Green for the horrid PK set ups, formations and sitting back approach. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

sure we can hire from within

if not Shaw, we could use Smyl, Jarvis or Hank Sedin

Deal with upstairs and let Smyl do the day to day til seasons end or a new guy is hired.

No point waiting, Gorton is already off the table

 

But no to Jim at the draft. The Canucks already tried to fire Quinn then hire him back as coach. you just have to sever ties and pay the bills on staff that has had its chance

I get asked every day if I have been vaxed why did Jim not know? He signed a contract with Hamonic this summer

Why did he not know Sutter was still sick when he signed him

Petey's slump is in part because of Jim's slow signing protocol

Its not hard to find out if people are vaxed

and yes, Jim signed more 5-6-7 D-men

In fact he signed Winnipeg's #3 RD 2 out of 3 summers and thought they were something better than a #3 + he signed the guy Tanev replaced

That is expectable decline

The PK should have been expected, Motte was injured, and is often injured, Signed Sutter without asking how he is feeling or doing any tests, traded Beagle, Roussell and Ericksson and replaced them with tweeners at best, traded Juolevi in a 2 for 1 deal that included Juulsen who had played a total of 46 games in 3 years, at all levels and Lammikko who averages -15 /season  and Jim thinks he's a penalty killer

Just looking at the roster, who is an NHL PK guy?

But ya, who designed the I formation PK? how many times do you see a goal when both forwards are between the dots?

[Spoosh]

We are still last in the pacific and only behind Arizona in the west so two wins now doesn’t really help. Only prolonging the inevitable. If you know you must make changes and are going to make changes eventually, you need to do it now. A good businessman must know that.

 

First a GM and then a coach. Preferrably both at the same time.

[Ballisticsports.]

7 hours ago, lmm said:

this will be a partial explanation/theory at best

Possibly connected to the internet

But many fans seem to believe that Jim has a master plan and that they (the faithful fans) understand it and are in on it.

I have read many time, many ways, (often sarcastically) "Its almost like Jim has a plan, and I understand it"

NOw, increasingly people are questioning whether Jim does actually have a plan, or how good that plan might be

but for those who believed in Jim's plan and stated that they understood and supported that plan, it is a large and difficult step backwards to now admit Jim's plan either did not exist or was flawed.

It was a day to day plan wasn't it?

Some days they just ran out of time

[IBatch]

On 12/1/2021 at 5:29 PM, Fred65 said:

Here's some thing I'm having difficulty understanding. Repeatedly complaints about Gillis leaving the cupbpard bare for JB. Well when JB is eventually canned the prospects will be exactly the same. The only difference being, Gillis left after winning the Jim Gregory award ( not much fear of JB getting that!! ) but in addition 2 presidents trophies, numerous division and conference trophies and went to game 7 of the SC. If FA was so quick to pull the trigger and fire Gillis, what's the hang up now and yes the cupboard will be bare of prospects. I suspect Gillis had the kahoolies to to tell FA you're a dud  and you're heading for a disaster, which turned out to be true

A few things on that thinking.   Yes the prospect pool is pretty vacant compared to what it was a few years ago - that's because those guys are now on the team, or Miller, OEL/Garland.    Even with that said, with MG our pool was almost or dead last for many consecutive years.   Now our pool is bottom third (low 20ish - more on that next time i get the pre-draft data) and that's with Podz in the lineup.    

 

Our best players when MG left we're 28-33....now our best players are 22-27...that's a big difference.   All of MG core had clauses - all the best players even Hansen.   We also had 9 consecutive years going back to Nonis with nothing to talk about until Horvat ... yes Co-ho and Hutton - big deal.  

 

A massive tweener gap, why guys like Vey and Bear came in right away, and later Dahlen and Goldobin.   

 

Now Miller is our elder statesmen as far as our core goes and not ONE of our core has a clause on him.   It's nothing at all like it was when MG was fired.  And rightly so (for getting fired).   A monkey could have come in and run that franchise at that point.   The core was already in place.   And Nonis gave us Luongo the last piece, plus Edler, Hansen and Schneider.    MG did an amazing job from top to bottom making the franchise as professional as it could possibly be, sleep doctors, oxygen chambers etc.   And only actually traded one first - part of the Ballard trade so it's not like he didn't have most of his picks because he actually did.    JB picks are all in our lineup right now - the ones that matter anyways.     And we have a ton of assets that could be moved to re-set the rebuild.   By the time EP is 27....that's four years to make it work.    So wouldn't try and make comparisons, they really aren't the same at all.   MG managed our best regular season team for 6 years.   The next GM that comes in has 2-4  years BEFORE it even gets to where MG was when he first started as far as the cores age goes. 

 

Naslund and the Sedins ... when did they break out again?  (26/27-30)  I know folks are impatient and I get that.   And i'm all for change too - starting with a President and going from there.   But like Hamonic agent says - who else is out there or available?   They have to want to come here, and making change just to make change is ok IF and only IF we do it smart.      

 

The next GM or even the current one, has way more assets available to him then JB did when he started, to finish this job up.    It won't be the "same" until EP is 33.   That's a decade from now. 

[wai_lai416]

i wonder if the islander continue to spirial would Trotz somehow be available, and if he's available would you jump to grab him? even if Benning isn't fired yet? would the next GM be ok with that?

[D-Money]

3 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

i wonder if the islander continue to spirial would Trotz somehow be available, and if he's available would you jump to grab him? even if Benning isn't fired yet? would the next GM be ok with that?

There’s no way Trotz will be available. The Isles have back-to-back Conference Finals berths, and were the team that seemed to give Tampa the most trouble. This year they’ve been ravaged by injuries and COVID.
 

They’ll take it as a one-off and take the opportunity to stock the prospect pool, and get back at it next year.

[wai_lai416]

1 minute ago, D-Money said:

There’s no way Trotz will be available. The Isles have back-to-back Conference Finals berths, and were the team that seemed to give Tampa the most trouble. This year they’ve been ravaged by injuries and COVID.
 

They’ll take it as a one-off and take the opportunity to stock the prospect pool, and get back at it next year.

yes i know it's highly unlikely but at the same time they just moved into a new building and need to sell tickets. so there's a small remote chance.. whether or not they'll be good next year remains to be seen. they have too much invested in the 2 goals almost 9mil. dobson needs a raise and they are pretty tight against the cap. most of the contract that's coming off next year are minimum salary so they need to replace it with minimum salary contracts on top of giving dobson a raise. so who knows it's a pipe dream 

[wallstreetamigo]

If Trotz was fired (he won’t be) he would be hired somewhere the next day even if a team has to fire their coach. Would be the perfect coach for this team but highly unlikely the Canucks would go after him. Our next head coach will be Trent Cull unless Benning is replaced. Book it.

[Steven Stamkos]

33 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

i wonder if the islander continue to spirial would Trotz somehow be available, and if he's available would you jump to grab him? even if Benning isn't fired yet? would the next GM be ok with that?

If you thought Petey was struggling wait till you see him in a Trotz system. 

[D-Money]

49 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

yes i know it's highly unlikely but at the same time they just moved into a new building and need to sell tickets. so there's a small remote chance.. whether or not they'll be good next year remains to be seen. they have too much invested in the 2 goals almost 9mil. dobson needs a raise and they are pretty tight against the cap. most of the contract that's coming off next year are minimum salary so they need to replace it with minimum salary contracts on top of giving dobson a raise. so who knows it's a pipe dream 

Not sure how firing the coach that turned your team from basement dweller to playoff team overnight helps sell tickets.

 

Also, Isles clear almost $5M with Clutterbuck, and Hickey’s cap penalty (for being buried in the minors). If that’s not enough, they’ll move the last year of Varlamov’s deal for a cheaper backup. They’re not in bad shape.

 

Edited December 3, 2021 by D-Money

[kanucks25]

Lou will make a big trade before he fires the coach.

 

Between injuries, COVID, and having to play like the first 20% of the season on the road, I imagine they'll just write this one off and regroup for next season (barring a huge mid-season turnaround).

[D-Money]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

It's nothing at all like it was when MG was fired.  And rightly so (for getting fired).   A monkey could have come in and run that franchise at that point.   The core was already in place.   And Nonis gave us Luongo the last piece, plus Edler, Hansen and Schneider.    MG did an amazing job from top to bottom making the franchise as professional as it could possibly be, sleep doctors, oxygen chambers etc.  

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Do you mean when Gillis took the job, a monkey could have done it? But then he did an amazing job?

 

Or did you mean when Gillis was fired, a monkey could have come in...?  If so, then Benning definitely proved that untrue.

 

If there's one thing the last few years should have shown everyone, it's that amassing talented young players is one thing, and forming those players into a cohesive, winning team is quite another. Gillis took over a team that missed the playoffs the previous year, and built them into one of the most dominant teams statistically of the salary cap era. His failures in drafting over 5 drafts pale in comparison to Benning's 7+ year failure to put the pieces he's drafted into a position to succeed...at all.

[King Heffy]

7 minutes ago, D-Money said:

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Do you mean when Gillis took the job, a monkey could have done it? But then he did an amazing job?

 

Or did you mean when Gillis was fired, a monkey could have come in...?  If so, then Benning definitely proved that untrue.

 

If there's one thing the last few years should have shown everyone, it's that amassing talented young players is one thing, and forming those players into a cohesive, winning team is quite another. Gillis took over a team that missed the playoffs the previous year, and built them into one of the most dominant teams statistically of the salary cap era. His failures in drafting over 5 drafts pale in comparison to Benning's 7+ year failure to put the pieces he's drafted into a position to succeed...at all.

There's the third option that neither GM did a good job.  There is a reason no one has hired Gillis since then.  Benning, for all his faults, has still left the franchise in a better position than the unqualified moron he replaced.

[D-Money]

6 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

There's the third option that neither GM did a good job.  There is a reason no one has hired Gillis since then.  Benning, for all his faults, has still left the franchise in a better position than the unqualified moron he replaced.

Agree to disagree. Gillis built something special.

 

He hasn't been hired since, because he called out ownership live on the radio on the way out. Also stepped on a lot of toes around the league. Shot himself in the foot there. But there's no denying he did some great work in a short period of time.

[NHL97OneTimer]

2 minutes ago, D-Money said:

Agree to disagree. Gillis built something special.

He added a couple of good support pieces that were key to the run but in terms of the "build" of the team, it was quite complete.  He and Gilman did a lot of re-signings that were considered well done but was that him or the capologist + the players' desire to stay on the team?

[NHL97OneTimer]

Cross-posting since there are two fire Green threads essentially.

 

Yes please to AV again.  Here's the accountability I liked with him and what I think we miss with Green (considering both are "players coaches"):

 

https://www.tsn.ca/philadelphia-flyers-alain-vigneault-1.1729319

The Flyers, who have dropped to seventh in the Metropolitan Division, have scored just 12 goals over the seven-game skid"I'm not satisfied about anything here," Flyers head coach Alain Vigneault said after Thursday's loss. "We have to find ways to win games here. This is serious. We're not scoring. Right now, we're not finishing, so we're going to have to find ways to win games 1-0 and 2-1 until we get some of that finish that I know some of these players have. Right now, we're not seeing it, we're not executing it." 

[King Heffy]

2 minutes ago, D-Money said:

Agree to disagree. Gillis built something special.

 

He hasn't been hired since, because he called out ownership live on the radio on the way out. Also stepped on a lot of toes around the league. Shot himself in the foot there. But there's no denying he did some great work in a short period of time.

He hasn't been hired again due to the bad trades and terrible drafting.  He did have some soft skills, but he was grossly incompetent regarding anything hockey related.  We'd be in a better position today if he hadn't been too stupid to buy out Luongo using the compliance buyout specifically intended for that kind of contract.  Gillis was the equivalent of the kid who copied off of 2 smarter people's homework.

[Ghostsof1915]

9 minutes ago, D-Money said:

Agree to disagree. Gillis built something special.

 

He hasn't been hired since, because he called out ownership live on the radio on the way out. Also stepped on a lot of toes around the league. Shot himself in the foot there. But there's no denying he did some great work in a short period of time.

Did he?

Luongo, The Twins, and basically the core of the team was there before Gillis got here. 

And Gillis clearly couldn't draft very well. If only we didn't lose Bourdon.  

[Ghostsof1915]

6 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

He hasn't been hired again due to the bad trades and terrible drafting.  He did have some soft skills, but he was grossly incompetent regarding anything hockey related.  We'd be in a better position today if he hadn't been too stupid to buy out Luongo using the compliance buyout specifically intended for that kind of contract.  Gillis was the equivalent of the kid who copied off of 2 smarter people's homework.

I'm surprised Gillis hasn't gone back to being an Agent. Was that too boring for him? 

[D-Money]

3 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

He hasn't been hired again due to the bad trades and terrible drafting.  He did have some soft skills, but he was grossly incompetent regarding anything hockey related.  We'd be in a better position today if he hadn't been too stupid to buy out Luongo using the compliance buyout specifically intended for that kind of contract.  Gillis was the equivalent of the kid who copied off of 2 smarter people's homework.

Luongo was still in his prime, and was a valuable starting goaltender for years. He ended up getting us Markstrom, who could have provided a lot of value to the franchise. The stupid person was the one who didn't trade one of Markstrom or Demko for picks/prospects (like Gillis did with Schneider), instead of just letting one of them walk.

 

What bad trades are you referring to? Ehrhoff for almost nothing? Max Lapierre for a 3rd? Chris Higgins for friggin Evan Oberg? I mean, the Ballard trade didn't work out, but it looked like a landslide when Grabner was on waivers.