Hirsch: "...the problem isn't on the bench, the problem is in the locker room..."

[stawns]

12 minutes ago, -DLC- said:

I don't agree.  Tensions are high, they're struggling badly....a new coach might ignite some hope and calm things down.  This isn't a popularity contest and it's possible to have "leaders" not just a leader.  There's no I in team stuff.  A coach can help take charge of this kind of situation and provide some direction.  A fresh slate and new ideas could provide some focus where there's possible (perceived) dissension.  I don't think you look at the players until you've tried the coaches first.  

 

 

And Green will be gone first, almost certainly.  However, if there's a divide in the room, a new coach isn't going to fix that.  I've said from the beginning of the year that something is wrong in the dressing room and that's got nothing to do with whomever is behind the bench.

Edited November 16, 2021 by stawns

[*Buzzsaw*]

Call me naive, but I think Hockey Players are basically not complicated.

 

#1  They love the game... the fact they are being paid huge sums of money to do so means they are basically living the dream.  Being part of a team is second nature, they love the camaraderie.  Everyone gets along in a winning locker room.  Competition and who is 'Alpha' becomes a positive... everyone is competing to be as good as they can be... and to show their team how much they can contribute.  They all feel they are good enough and they all feel they belong.

 

#2  They love to win...  if you put them in a situation where they feel they have a chance to compete and win, or at least they are on their way to improving enough to win in the future, they will buy in.

 

Where this goes wrong is when #2 is missing.... when they feel like there is no way they will win with their current team or setup and don't see improvement coming.

 

Its up to the coach to convince them they are part of a winning combination and to teach them the way they can get to their goal.

 

I think this team has lost the belief they can win with the current coach, and they have lost confidence in their own abilities.

[erkayloomeh]

1 hour ago, stawns said:

Why was it bad judgement?  Isn't it his job?  Do you think his boss would be happy if he didn't share that?

Is he a reporter?  I thought he was a radio commentator. 

[stawns]

5 minutes ago, *Buzzsaw* said:

Call me naive, but I think Hockey Players are basically not complicated.

 

#1  They love the game... the fact they are being paid huge sums of money to do so means they are basically living the dream.  Being part of a team is second nature, they love the camaraderie.  Everyone gets along in a winning locker room.  Competition and who is 'Alpha' becomes a positive... everyone is competing to be as good as they can be... and to show their team how much they can contribute.  They all feel they are good enough and they all feel they belong.

 

#2  They love to win...  if you put them in a situation where they feel they have a chance to compete and win, or at least they are on their way to improving enough to win in the future, they will buy in.

 

Where this goes wrong is when #2 is missing.... when they feel like there is no way they will win with their current team or setup and don't see improvement coming.

 

Its up to the coach to convince them they are part of a winning combination and to teach them the way they can get to their goal.

 

I think this team has lost the belief they can win with the current coach, and they have lost confidence in their own abilities.

I think that's an incredibly naive perspective.  To me, this goes beyond coaching and though I think Green is likely gone, this problem won't be resolved.  

[mll]

35 minutes ago, *Buzzsaw* said:

Call me naive, but I think Hockey Players are basically not complicated.

 

#1  They love the game... the fact they are being paid huge sums of money to do so means they are basically living the dream.  Being part of a team is second nature, they love the camaraderie.  Everyone gets along in a winning locker room.  Competition and who is 'Alpha' becomes a positive... everyone is competing to be as good as they can be... and to show their team how much they can contribute.  They all feel they are good enough and they all feel they belong.

 

#2  They love to win...  if you put them in a situation where they feel they have a chance to compete and win, or at least they are on their way to improving enough to win in the future, they will buy in.

 

Where this goes wrong is when #2 is missing.... when they feel like there is no way they will win with their current team or setup and don't see improvement coming.

 

Its up to the coach to convince them they are part of a winning combination and to teach them the way they can get to their goal.

 

I think this team has lost the belief they can win with the current coach, and they have lost confidence in their own abilities.

 

NJD say they are a lot of teams who have a lot of good players but they don’t excel as a team.  They believe it's because those teams haven’t managed to build the togetherness that winning teams have.  

 

Oshie and other Capital players the season they won, explained that they finally became family.  Before they were just guys playing hockey together, but that season around January they finally started playing and sacrificing for each other.

 

When Guerin came over to Minnesota one of the very 1st things he did was to impress on the leaders that they had to build closeness if they ever wanted to win something.  He says that players have to be willing to sacrifice - their ice time, role, body for the team.  The Wild have considerably changed their culture since he took over.  In fairness Fenton had also identified that as an issue.

 

Edited November 16, 2021 by mll

[-DLC-]

1 hour ago, stawns said:

However, if there's a divide in the room, a new coach isn't going to fix that.  I've said from the beginning of the year that something is wrong in the dressing room and that's got nothing to do with whomever is behind the bench.

I don't know that you can state this like fact though.  Saying it doesn't make it so.

 

Good coaches can command the room and take charge.  If it's in disarray, that doesn't mean it can't be calmed.  Honestly, that's a bit of a defeatist attitude to say it can't be controlled.  You have people in in positions as leaders (coach, teacher, etc.) who have to be able to diffuse situations like this and provide perspective and direction.  I've used the example of frustrated teams fighting in practice...you can bring a group back together.  It doesn't mean it's "done".  I doubt every team is all on the same page all the time...there's bound to be periods where guys go at each other, especially after crushing losses.

 

There are often divides in groups of humans (even families at times) but they can be overcome as you take the emotion that comes with being frustrated and upset out of it and calm things down.  Get coaches with a different formula in there, get a few wins strung together and then see if there are issues in the room.  My guess is the team will unify if they're able to find some success and salvage the season and their pride.

 

Anyhow...we'll see.

[King Heffy]

54 minutes ago, stawns said:

And Green will be gone first, almost certainly.  However, if there's a divide in the room, a new coach isn't going to fix that.  I've said from the beginning of the year that something is wrong in the dressing room and that's got nothing to do with whomever is behind the bench.

I still disagree, especially with how Green himself has proven to be a locker room cancer by throwing the team under the bus.  It could be something as simple as a guy who doesn't want to go against any coach, regardless of who it is.  A new coach might be able to get that guy to buy in.  Either way, you don't improve things by keeping a bad coach who's also a pitiful excuse for a man.  Any player who still respects that gutless clown needs to take a long, hard look at himself in the mirror.

[PistolPete13]

On 11/14/2021 at 11:44 AM, 48MPHSlapShot said:

In what world is Pettersson an "alpha dog"? 

I was wondering if it was Petey as well. In the sense that Petey is the “superstar” he is an alpha dog. I’m not up on my Swedish player psychology, so you might want a second opinion from @Timra Swede. 

[stawns]

26 minutes ago, -DLC- said:

I don't know that you can state this like fact though.  Saying it doesn't make it so.

 

Good coaches can command the room and take charge.  If it's in disarray, that doesn't mean it can't be calmed.  Honestly, that's a bit of a defeatist attitude to say it can't be controlled.  You have people in in positions as leaders (coach, teacher, etc.) who have to be able to diffuse situations like this and provide perspective and direction.  I've used the example of frustrated teams fighting in practice...you can bring a group back together.  It doesn't mean it's "done".  I doubt every team is all on the same page all the time...there's bound to be periods where guys go at each other, especially after crushing losses.

 

There are often divides in groups of humans (even families at times) but they can be overcome as you take the emotion that comes with being frustrated and upset out of it and calm things down.  Get coaches with a different formula in there, get a few wins strung together and then see if there are issues in the room.  My guess is the team will unify if they're able to find some success and salvage the season and their pride.

 

Anyhow...we'll see.

If what CH is saying is true, it sounds like it's past the point of no return and what I've seen since the start of the season supports that.  It's not impossible that it can't be mended (if true), but it's much easier to move out the one you think is the issue.  That's far less complicated than bringing a new coach into a toxic dressing room.  If I were GM, I'd want a new coach coming into a unified team so he can focus on hockey and not politics. 

 

If CH is right, then it's likely one of the top players and probably wouldn't be hard to move for a good return.

 

[Eddie]

Another thought - if this truly is a problem with some A-Dog player like Miller or Bo - it clearly was the same problem that existed last year, as the symptoms are the same just worse now right ? That's clear to see  . . Why not correct it in the summer then - Would have easily got assets and high picks back for either player that could have been used to get a player like Dvorak from Arizona with the rest of the package or hell your wouldn't have been to far short of Eichel with that hall + the 9th OA when we still had - better course of action if you were truely 'all in' - You can say a lot about JB but he has never been one to not move on from a player or make a trade. If they didn't want to trade said player surely the smart thing to do would have not re-up green given he was out of contract and they had all summer to find a replacement, even if Aqua wanted a cheap replacement again - they could have worked it.

Similarly if said player did have such serious issues with the coach why not ask for a trade when he was renewed - Not like that doesn't hit the news the min someone is even remotely thinking it these days

Doesn't seem to make sense to me.  

[Hairy Kneel]

I know it feels like I keep harping on the same points on team physicality, but guys like Dorsett are team builders, guys like Gino are team builders, guys like Rypien are team builders. 

OEL stood up the other night because he knew there was NOBODY ELSE. We are missing that role in our lineup. 

Whatever we had of it was dismissed by Green. 

[wallstreetamigo]

3 hours ago, stawns said:

And Green will be gone first, almost certainly.  However, if there's a divide in the room, a new coach isn't going to fix that.  I've said from the beginning of the year that something is wrong in the dressing room and that's got nothing to do with whomever is behind the bench.

I think there is an issue between players and coaching. And players and management.

 

If I was a player and was told I needed a vaccine to play because everyone on the team needed to be vaccinated I would be pissed at Benning caving in and giving Hamonic an exception. 
 

I would also have been pissed that management and coaches let a player practice while pending a COVID test that turned out to be positive.

 

Hockey aside, both of those are threats to them, their careers, and most importantly their families. Some of whom got COVID due to the organizations lax standards. 
 

If I was a player I would not trust management or staff to do the right thing in any situation if they don’t with a life threatening disease.

 

 

[wallstreetamigo]

21 minutes ago, Hairy Kneel said:

I know it feels like I keep harping on the same points on team physicality, but guys like Dorsett are team builders, guys like Gino are team builders, guys like Rypien are team builders. 

OEL stood up the other night because he knew there was NOBODY ELSE. We are missing that role in our lineup. 

Whatever we had of it was dismissed by Green. 

When OEL has to step up, you know your team is weak af. I commend him but honestly if he gets injured this team is screwed. One of the passenger bottom 6 should be doing that but he got rid of them all.

[Timråfan]

3 hours ago, -DLC- said:

I don't know that you can state this like fact though.  Saying it doesn't make it so.

 

Good coaches can command the room and take charge.  If it's in disarray, that doesn't mean it can't be calmed.  Honestly, that's a bit of a defeatist attitude to say it can't be controlled.  You have people in in positions as leaders (coach, teacher, etc.) who have to be able to diffuse situations like this and provide perspective and direction.  I've used the example of frustrated teams fighting in practice...you can bring a group back together.  It doesn't mean it's "done".  I doubt every team is all on the same page all the time...there's bound to be periods where guys go at each other, especially after crushing losses.

 

There are often divides in groups of humans (even families at times) but they can be overcome as you take the emotion that comes with being frustrated and upset out of it and calm things down.  Get coaches with a different formula in there, get a few wins strung together and then see if there are issues in the room.  My guess is the team will unify if they're able to find some success and salvage the season and their pride.

 

Anyhow...we'll see.

I’ve seen Miller go on a selfish route on the left side using Hughes and Boeser leaving Petey on the right side.

It only takes one selfish player that want to get a payday to ruin a team.

[Timråfan]

14 hours ago, Goal:thecup said:

I backed this up and looked at it a few times on the pvr (not that that does us any good here).

 

To me, it looked like Petey was trying to justify something and Brock shook his head and looked away.

 

Another episode prior to that Horvat and Miller were working together on the tablet and looked to me like they were in agreement and moving forward.

 

A third thing that has me wondering if "It" is Pettersson is the weird stuff that came out during his contract negotiations.

He kinda said he only wanted the 3 year deal because he wanted to win, and would make a decision whether to resign with Vancouver at the end of this contract v/v the next contract.

(I mashed that up, but I hope you get what I mean.)

 

Last, I saw Miller talking several times with multiple Canucks who were grouped around paying rapt attention.

Green was right there and did not interfere, has given JT an "A", and a heck of a lot of ice time.

 

To my sleuthing, "It" is Pettersson, who consistently seems to do the opposite of the right thing at decision time.

To my mind this is "It", but to my heart, which is breaking, I cannot believe Petey would act like this, and hope to helll I am dead wrong.

I can help you out here. Petey is an easy victim for an predator. 
He’s a guy that spent his time practising hockey while the other guys socialised.

So he hasn’t really learnt yet who to trust or not. So someone using him as a step ladder in some way.

That process is something he should have been through but it seems it happens now with the Canucks if it’s an correct assesment you’re doing. 

 

[N4ZZY]

20 minutes ago, Timråfan said:

I’ve seen Miller go on a selfish route on the left side using Hughes and Boeser leaving Petey on the right side.

It only takes one selfish player that want to get a payday to ruin a team.

Sigh. This team is such a mess. Don't even know where to start. 

 

I can see Miller being the guy that CH is talking about. I'd be very surprised if it's Bo. 

 

[PuckYa]

31 minutes ago, Timråfan said:

I’ve seen Miller go on a selfish route on the left side using Hughes and Boeser leaving Petey on the right side.

It only takes one selfish player that want to get a payday to ruin a team.

 

[Timråfan]

3 minutes ago, PuckYa said:

 

Damn it, that donkey doesn’t get as much water as it should.

Call animal protection…

[Timråfan]

26 minutes ago, N4ZZY said:

Sigh. This team is such a mess. Don't even know where to start. 

 

I can see Miller being the guy that CH is talking about. I'd be very surprised if it's Bo. 

 

I’d be surprised also if it’s Bo. But he’s an easy victim for a predator also being as frustrated as he is.

 

Miller is the easy choice for a predator ruining the team since he’s a fairly new guy and alpha that maybe is a bit narcissistic.

Then interviews like this come

https://theprovince.com/sports/hockey/nhl/vancouver-canucks/canucks-getting-on-same-page-has-proved-elusive

 

So, is Miller a predator or the guy who helps out everywhere and is approachable. 
I don’t have a clue.

I’ve only seen how he use Petey as a distraction and sometimes it’s good but not if you want a ”team”.

[N4ZZY]

9 minutes ago, Timråfan said:

I’d be surprised also if it’s Bo. But he’s an easy victim for a predator also being as frustrated as he is.

 

Miller is the easy choice for a predator ruining the team since he’s a fairly new guy and alpha that maybe is a bit narcissistic.

Then interviews like this come

https://theprovince.com/sports/hockey/nhl/vancouver-canucks/canucks-getting-on-same-page-has-proved-elusive

 

So, is Miller a predator or the guy who helps out everywhere and is approachable. 
I don’t have a clue.

I’ve only seen how he use Petey as a distraction and sometimes it’s good but not if you want a ”team”.

Can only assume because none of us have any facts into anything, which is frustrating as hell. 

 

I can't see Bo being the guy that's disrupting the room. He doesn't seem like the kind of guy to do something like that, and if he was, why didn't he disrupt the room before? Why now?

 

Miller, I can see as a disruptive player in the locker room. It's got to be a top player on the team right? 

 

Could it be Petey? Miller? I can't see it being Brock, or Bo. They don't seem to be the types.