[Rumour] J.T. Miller Trade/Contract Talks

[stanleysteamersmyl]

8 hours ago, Me_ said:

Miller brings something to the table no other Canucks player brings; a contagious competitive edge that makes everyone else better.

 

Those types players are very rare. When you get one, you do everything to keep him.

I agree.  I always like big, tough players with size who can score, like Miller.  Rick Tocchet, Ryan Getzlaf, Luc Debois, Ryan Kesler, no like Messier, Iginla, Jamie Benn..........   Like Bieksa said, keep him, they don't grow on trees.

But again, my friend said, if you can get a young big, tough stay at home defenseman who can defend and make it really hard for forwards in the front of the net........Pronger, Robinson and Peewee Human in Vegas.

[aGENT]

5 minutes ago, Me_ said:

Perpetual rebuild.

 

Are you guys addicted to seeing young kids develop for years?

 

Thats fun do you guys?

 

Moving one player does not equal a rebuild. And certainly not a perpetual one.

 

Fact is, this team isn't good enough WITH $5m Miller. An $8-9m, soon to decline Miller, isn't going to fix that or fix our dog's breakfast D (or it's massive succession holes). Him at a higher cap hit just erodes the depth and quality of that already not good enough team.

 

You say perpetual rebuild, I counter with perpetual not good enough bubble team that will slowly decline to an actual rebuild because we wasted years of our young core's prime, spending ever more money, desperately clinging to said mediocre team.

[Fanuck]

1 hour ago, HKSR said:

This is the one thing I still can't wrap my head around.  Many advocates for trading Miller are expecting our young guys to take significant steps forward in the next couple years.  If they do that without Miller, why can't they do that WITH Miller?  

 

Just my thoughts are if that is the case, sure as hell this team would be a contender in a couple years considering they're already playing .700 hockey.

I hear what you're saying.

 

But the argument for your question is that with Miller on the team he's taking upwards of 20+min/night, all first rep PP, all important match-ups,, tons of important draws, all prime offensive zone starts (and even the important d-zone ones I've noticed lately) - all of these opportunities are not given to younger players (or at the very least, less of these opportunities are given to younger guys).  This isn't an argument for/against trading Miller, just a reply to your question. 

 

I know it's apples to oranges, but at my last workplace my manager told me to find another job at one point - I was shocked - but he actually had my best interests in mind - he said I would never advance in the company with the senior managers I had above me as they would take all prime opportunities and likely be with the company for some time.  That's exactly what happened - eventually I moved on and surpassed my previous management position by leaps and bounds with my new company.  The poor colleague I had who was doing my equivalent job (different department) 4 years ago at the old company is doing the exact same job with the exact same pay and the exact same benefits. 

 

It's not that young guys 'can't' take steps forward with Miller, but nobody can argue he's not going to get all the prime opportunities in all situations before BB goes to a 2nd or 3rd line guy. 

 

That said, I've always sided with the managers/coaches in the league who say that the NHL is not a developmental league, so in the big picture, if Miller stays and keeps playing at his present level or close to it, of course he should be getting all the prime opportunities - it's clear he's taking advantage of them. 

[Rackdawg]

21 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Moving one player does not equal a rebuild. And certainly not a perpetual one.

 

Fact is, this team isn't good enough WITH $5m Miller. An $8-9m, soon to decline Miller, isn't going to fix that or fix our dog's breakfast D (or it's massive succession holes). Him at a higher cap hit just erodes the depth and quality of that already not good enough team.

 

You say perpetual rebuild, I counter with perpetual not good enough bubble team that will slowly decline to an actual rebuild because we wasted years of our young core's prime, spending ever more money, desperately clinging to said mediocre team.

Bang on.!!

[48MPHSlapShot]

31 minutes ago, Me_ said:

Perpetual rebuild.

 

Are you guys addicted to seeing young kids develop for years?

 

Thats fun do you guys?

 

I think we're going to be rebuilding in a few years anyway, and considering that no team is willing to give up their ace prospects during the flat cap era, and any 1st we'd receive would obviously be a very late one, a Miller trade isn't going to change that. This is the worst possible environment to move a big ticket player like Miller. You're just simply not going to get prime assets back. Might as well accept the inevitable rebuild and try to make a run now while we still have one of the best players in the league.

[HKSR]

37 minutes ago, Fanuck said:

I hear what you're saying.

 

But the argument for your question is that with Miller on the team he's taking upwards of 20+min/night, all first rep PP, all important match-ups,, tons of important draws, all prime offensive zone starts (and even the important d-zone ones I've noticed lately) - all of these opportunities are not given to younger players (or at the very least, less of these opportunities are given to younger guys).  This isn't an argument for/against trading Miller, just a reply to your question. 

 

I know it's apples to oranges, but at my last workplace my manager told me to find another job at one point - I was shocked - but he actually had my best interests in mind - he said I would never advance in the company with the senior managers I had above me as they would take all prime opportunities and likely be with the company for some time.  That's exactly what happened - eventually I moved on and surpassed my previous management position by leaps and bounds with my new company.  The poor colleague I had who was doing my equivalent job (different department) 4 years ago at the old company is doing the exact same job with the exact same pay and the exact same benefits. 

 

It's not that young guys 'can't' take steps forward with Miller, but nobody can argue he's not going to get all the prime opportunities in all situations before BB goes to a 2nd or 3rd line guy. 

 

That said, I've always sided with the managers/coaches in the league who say that the NHL is not a developmental league, so in the big picture, if Miller stays and keeps playing at his present level or close to it, of course he should be getting all the prime opportunities - it's clear he's taking advantage of them. 

Totally hear you, but it's not like Miller plays all 3 positions at the same time lol.  Miller may take away ONE player's ice time, but not all of Petey, Hogs, and Podz.  In fact, it's probably only Petey that is affected, and it doesn't look like it's much of an issue given how Petey is performing lately

 

The argument makes a lot more sense if you're talking about a backup goalie trying to move up.

 

EDIT:  Y'know as I am replying to you, it makes a lot more sense in my mind now for Boeser to be moved.  I think it would really open up opportunity for one of either Garland, Podz, and Hogs to take their offensive game to another level with the additional opportunities.

 

Edited March 11, 2022 by HKSR

[shiznak]

10 hours ago, Junkyard Dog said:

He'd play 2 years for 6M. 3M a year. He'd get 50 Million in less time. If he's still playing at a high level at 35 he could just sign a decent contract with bonuses. 

Do you think Miller is willing to bet he continue to play at a high level at 35, when most athletes start to trend downward at that age? Even so, he’s more likely to get 4-3m max, at that point in his career.

 

Like I said, he could just sign a 7yrs, 56m+ contract, that will take him into retirement. 

[HKSR]

18 minutes ago, 48MPHSlapShot said:

I think we're going to be rebuilding in a few years anyway, and considering that no team is willing to give up their ace prospects during the flat cap era, and any 1st we'd receive would obviously be a very late one, a Miller trade isn't going to change that. This is the worst possible environment to move a big ticket player like Miller. You're just simply not going to get prime assets back. Might as well accept the inevitable rebuild and try to make a run now while we still have one of the best players in the league.

Yes!  Exactly!!

 

We have:

- Arguably our best player in Demko on a huge value deal (better than Mackinnon's IMO)

- Hughes and Petey both on good value deals

- Garland on a great value deal

- 2 very effective Top 9 guys on ELCs (Hogs and Podz)

- A 32 year old Luke Schenn playing like a Top 4 making less than $1M (again, another good value contract).

- A 4th line that could compete with any 4th line in the entire league

 

When you have that many value contracts going right now, and have one of the best centres in the entire league, not to mention the centre depth of Miller, Petey, Bo, and Lamikko down the middle, you take this as an opportunity (a window if you will).

 

The team is clearly capable of playing exceptional hockey (.700 hockey for months now).  They are NOT that far off from being a solid contender. 

 

The likelihood is if you checked around the league, there would be very, very few teams that would want to face the Canucks in the playoffs right now.  That says a LOT about this team.

 

[SilentSam]

21 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Moving one player does not equal a rebuild. And certainly not a perpetual one.

 

Fact is, this team isn't good enough WITH $5m Miller. An $8-9m, soon to decline Miller, isn't going to fix that or fix our dog's breakfast D (or it's massive succession holes). Him at a higher cap hit just erodes the depth and quality of that already not good enough team.

 

You say perpetual rebuild, I counter with perpetual not good enough bubble team that will slowly decline to an actual rebuild because we wasted years of our young core's prime, spending ever more money, desperately clinging to said mediocre team.

Every Cup winning Team has or has had a standout player/ leader who is emotionally involved and indentured to his team,.  Raising the bar for all his teamates to be the best.

 

Now , before you start romanticizing about the Sedins and how they did it,.  Remember this, they didn’t.

..and if we had an entire team full of their leadership and sportsmanship style. We still would not have won a cup.

The “hand off” to Bo was an undeserved gift, that’s how I felt about it then, and do now.

Im sure in fantasy analytic minds looking into their crystal balls, it was an obvious choice.

Hope.

 

Without a leader, this team is toast..  and “choking” it’s way for a potential playoff run for years to come.

 

To have Miller here, now, and hopefully for the next 6-7 years will pay dividends in what ethic he leaves on the ice, game in and game out.

 

To say “declining” about a 28-29 year old elite athlete, is the inclusive fantasy associated with analytics

Your not realizing the Energy this one player creates on his team, and how they follow his example.

Yes, one player can create the template and legacy,.  If the players want to follow him..

and I think the following is obvious.

 

Im hopeful to see Miller in a Canuck Jersey for 5 or more years..  what he brings, that “ go energy “ is what you want running through the veins of your entire team.

That isn’t Hope,.  It’s actually happening right now, it’s real,  it’s not a fluke.

Our contention as a Team is awake because of this.

Boudreau has called Miller the leader..

I hope both of those men see a Cup here, so do I.

The template is on the ice tonight, and been winning against big teams since the new year.

 

Others here are hoping for a fantasy return of draft picks or prospects for Miller,

waiting for players nuts to drop over the next 5-6 years in a re-build.   

We are 2 player positions away from having one of the most complete hockey teams this city has seen..   and I don’t think we need to give up anything we can’t do without,

or change this template,

with Miller on it, to be it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Timråfan]

1 hour ago, Me_ said:

Perpetual rebuild.

 

Are you guys addicted to seeing young kids develop for years?

 

Thats fun do you guys?

 

Hardly a perpetual rebuild losing one player gaining four.

Do you think the Benning years was fun with all that stress? 

[coryberg]

2 hours ago, EternalCanuckFan said:

Miller had already been reasonably productive in NYR (and then had a bit of a down year in Tampa) but never at the level he reached in his first year with the Canucks and certainly not at the level he's producing at now.  I think this is one of the things that is so hard to discern about Miller's capacity to keep this level of production going in the future.

I went into this in the JT trade thread before he even played a game for us to show the haters that his numbers were bound to improve with more ice time (he ended up even higher than my projections).

 

Miller's average time on ice on each team...

 

-New York 14:50 

-Tampa Bay 15:23

-Vancouver 20:35

 

His best season as a ranger he had 56 points in 16:22 of ice time, That's 2.5 points per 60 minutes.

 

His best performance with the lightening after he was traded there and was given top 6 minutes. He had 18 points (19 games) in 18:11 of ice time, that's 3.1 points per 60 minutes.

 

For the Canucks his time on ice has been just over 20 minutes every season

2019-20 he had 3.1 points per 60 (best TB)

2020-21 he had 2.5 points per 60 (best NYR)

2021-22 he is at 3.5 points per 60

 

He is having a career year but it's actually not that big of a jump compared to his ice time. He always just needed the opportunities that he has been given.

 

This of course doesn't mean he can't fall off a cliff as he gets into his mid 30's but it does show that he has been a consistent high level producer throughout his career.

Edited March 11, 2022 by coryberg

[SilentSam]

7 minutes ago, Timråfan said:

Hardly a perpetual rebuild losing one player gaining four.

Do you think the Benning years was fun with all that stress? 

This is Bennings Team.

It seems to be playing very well with a Coaching change.

 

Miller is real. 

gaining other players, unknown, unknown outcomes, is gambling, like standing at the edge of a cliff with them and telling them to jump, hoping one or 2 can fly 4 or 5 years from now.

Another rebuild and im done ..  I don’t like re-runs..   it dose not excite me like it does others here.

Edited March 11, 2022 by SilentSam

[BPA]

I don’t think Miller is going anywhere this TDL.  So what remains to be seen is if Canucks can re-sign him.

 

So for the pro-Miller crowd, what do you think Miller will want/accept to re-sign in Vancouver?

 

I believe the max is 20% of the cap and the longest can be 8yr (cuz re-signing with current team).

[coryberg]

2 minutes ago, BPA said:

I don’t think Miller is going anywhere this TDL.  So what remains to be seen is if Canucks can re-sign him.

 

So for the pro-Miller crowd, what do you think Miller will want/accept to re-sign in Vancouver?

 

I believe the max is 20% of the cap and the longest can be 8yr (cuz re-signing with current team).

IF he wants to re-sign here I'm thinking the deal would be no less than 8mil AAV and even then to get that low we would have to sign him for 6 or more seasons bringing him to age 36-38. That's a tough pill to swallow after 34 or so.

 

On the other hand if he has a season like this one next year I can see him getting 9.5x8 on the open market during the silly season. At the end of the day it all comes down to "does he want to stay here". If he doesn't nothing else matters.

[BPA]

2 minutes ago, coryberg said:

IF he wants to re-sign here I'm thinking the deal would be no less than 8mil AAV and even then to get that low we would have to sign him for 6 or more seasons bringing him to age 36-38. That's a tough pill to swallow after 34 or so.

 

On the other hand if he has a season like this one next year I can see him getting 9.5x8 on the open market during the silly season. At the end of the day it all comes down to "does he want to stay here". If he doesn't nothing else matters.

Wow.  You’re being more optimistic than me.

 

I would think he’d want at least $9M x 7yrs to resign in the offseason.

[TheRick]

The way I can see Miller traded this trade deadline is if a team wanting Miller massively over pays for him. Otherwise it's best to just keep him the rest of the season and hope we get a playoff run. Then trade him during the off season.

Edited March 11, 2022 by TheRick

[Gawdzukes]

1 hour ago, Me_ said:

Perpetual rebuild.

 

Are you guys addicted to seeing young kids develop for years?

 

Thats fun do you guys?

 

This is actually what I'm against. Perpetual mediocrity. Since the Naslund years we've been hanging on to playoff hopes at all costs, trading picks and assets for the present, letting assets go to UFA, or if possible re-signing our players to retirement contracts for past glory and basically winding it down, ala the Sedin's (brutal results). So really from 2001-2018/present or earlier we've been perpetually sacrificing the future for the present. Even after the Sedin's were gone we still did that keeping Markstrom, Tanev, and Stetcher, and adding Toffoli for a playoff run while getting nothing back and once again re-building with no assets in the bank. We basically did a mini rebuild last year with about 10 new starters on the team as well.

 

This is actually what the trade supporters are trying to prevent. Another situation exactly like the past where we sign a player to a long contract past his prime only to have it handcuff us so bad we not only have to rebuild but we have to go through 3-4 vomit filled years just to get there. The people that want a trade don't want to perpetually rebuild we just want to rebuild/retool right for once. Re-upping Miller to a new contract on top of our already improper rebuild could leave us running out of runway once again in the near future. Having new management is an opportunity to do that right for once in decades.

 

After 40+ years I've come to the conclusion that simply sucking a bit, getting some high picks, developing them, and adding some high priced UFA's might have worked in the past, but not any longer. In the past I would have been all over re-signing Miller and going for it because I believe in the present, and I believe in standing behind my players, and that's exciting and right to do, even when we lose. However I also want to win it all someday too and that's why I think it may be in our best interest to trade him for a bevy of assets so we can have our young core, our prospects, our picks, additional picks, and added young players all aligned to peak at the same time. As it stands with our cap if we re-sign JT we'll be walking a cap tight rope for more than half a decade.

 

Either way I'm glad it's not up to me because I'm going against the grain here a bit. I'm certainly not going to be upset if we keep JT and we win a cup but this type of thinking seems to be the route we always take and it seldom works out. I would like to be like one of those American teams for once that have an embarrassment of riches and a blinding future instead of fighting for a playoff spot every year.

[coryberg]

3 minutes ago, BPA said:

Wow.  You’re being more optimistic than me.

 

I would think he’d want at least $9M x 7yrs to resign in the offseason.

I was putting down the bare minimum, 9 mil is a good guess.

[aGENT]

1 hour ago, SilentSam said:

Every Cup winning Team has or has had a standout player/ leader who is emotionally involved and indentured to his team,.  Raising the bar for all his teamates to be the best.

 

Now , before you start romanticizing about the Sedins and how they did it,.  Remember this, they didn’t.

..and if we had an entire team full of their leadership and sportsmanship style. We still would not have won a cup.

The “hand off” to Bo was an undeserved gift, that’s how I felt about it then, and do now.

Im sure in fantasy analytic minds looking into their crystal balls, it was an obvious choice.

Hope.

 

Without a leader, this team is toast..  and “choking” it’s way for a potential playoff run for years to come.

 

To have Miller here, now, and hopefully for the next 6-7 years will pay dividends in what ethic he leaves on the ice, game in and game out.

Has anyone suggested Miller isn't a good player? An emotional leader (for good and bad)? A really good player? Nope, nope and nope. You're an old man yelling at a cloud here.

 

1 hour ago, SilentSam said:

 

To say “declining” about a 28-29 year old elite athlete, is the inclusive fantasy associated with analytics

He's 29 in 3 days. He'll be 30 when any new deal kicks in. Forwards tend to regress pretty hard at 32+. That's not fantasy, that's cold, hard statistics. 

 

1 hour ago, SilentSam said:

Your not realizing the Energy this one player creates on his team, and how they follow his example.

Yes, one player can create the template and legacy,.  If the players want to follow him..

and I think the following is obvious.

Again, nobody has suggested he isn't a valuable player. I fully agree we need players like Miller, just not a 30+ year old +/- $8.5m dollar version of one that's going to decline and become a boat anchor in the middle of our contention window.  

 

1 hour ago, SilentSam said:

Im hopeful to see Miller in a Canuck Jersey for 5 or more years..  what he brings, that “ go energy “ is what you want running through the veins of your entire team.

That isn’t Hope,.  It’s actually happening right now, it’s real,  it’s not a fluke.

Our contention as a Team is awake because of this.

Boudreau has called Miller the leader..

I hope both of those men see a Cup here, so do I.

The template is on the ice tonight, and been winning against big teams since the new year.

I'm hopeful too! Would love for the team to actually sneak in to the playoffs and win the cup this year. I'd also love Miller to extend at $7.5m x 4 years! Are either remotely likely...? Uh...no.

 

Do I think we stand a chance against the Tampas, Carolinas, Floridas, Colorados etc? Nope. We're not even at the tier down of Washington, Boston, Pittsburgh, Calgary etc level. We're probably a hair behind better bubble teams like Dallas and Nashville even. I want better than a bubble/*fingers crossed* team. I want the league to fear us and view us as a juggernaut that's almost certainly bound for the finals. We're nowhere close, as presently constructed. There's only so many ways to address that. Allocating vast swaths of our already tight cap space to a soon to be 30 year old, soon to be declining player, for 6-8 years is not how I'd suggest we go about that.
 

1 hour ago, SilentSam said:

Others here are hoping for a fantasy return of draft picks or prospects for Miller,

waiting for players nuts to drop over the next 5-6 years in a re-build.   

I've seen very few people (none I think) suggesting draft picks and years away prospects. NHL players, NHL ready prospects. Just stop with this lame straw man.

 

1 hour ago, SilentSam said:

We are 2 player positions away from having one of the most complete hockey teams this city has seen..   and I don’t think we need to give up anything we can’t do without,

or change this template,

with Miller on it, to be it.

 

 We are definitely not just 2 players away from being the feared contender I wrote about above. And we're certainly bound to get further from those two players as our older D expire the next couple years and we allocate increasingly more cap to guys like Miller as you suggest.

[Gawdzukes]

3 hours ago, Spoosh said:

I don’t see why we should move him.

 

Quick calculation shows we’ve been one of the top teams in the league under Bruce. With the exact same roster JB built btw.
We are a playing and performing like a playoff team, just outside thanks to Travis Green tho. Why break up the band now? I’d go as far as saying we’re pretty close to contending with a few smaller tweaks.

I think this is the biggest conundrum currently. Are we really good enough to be a consistent top 8 NHL team? We look pretty good but gosh the sample is really messed up as this season has been a wild ride. Is this sustainable is anyone's guess but it's hard to support either claim with certainty really. I don't personally think we're quite that good as we have some major flaws but if we are how many trade supporters would be on board with re-signing JT then?

 

Unfortunately to really answer this we'd have to see how next year played out with JT on the ice. I'm sure they're leaning heavy on the analytics department to provide some answers here.