No Core Player NEEDS to be traded...

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Russ said:

Motte at $2M AAV

 

 

Wait what?  You don't pay 4th liners 2M, and in 4 years he will less effective because I doubt he will have his speed or be able to play that agressive.

 

And we have this core already, how well is it doing?  What makes you think it'll suddenly become better?

Motte  is getting that contract from us or someone else.    Have you watched him play?  That line right now is effectively our 3rd line - plays against the best in the world with very little ozone starts.  It's also been our most consistent line. 

[IBatch]

On 2/2/2022 at 11:59 PM, RU SERIOUS said:

I agree in principle with only those 4 players being the theoretical core.  However, as I've previously mentioned, only QH & Demko will likely be considered untouchable.  Although EP40 has shown enourmous potential back in the 2019 season, he has fallen off the rails and regressed significantly.   Gods know why and I'd love nothing more for him to regain his stature but it is possible that JR shows no further patience and cashes out on him now - if he feels that this is all we'll get out of him ever again.    I would not be shocked is he's traded but hoping they give him another year to see if the damage T. green caused him (like sooooo many others) is irreversable and permanent. 

 

As for Bo, the only reason I say he's not untouchable is that JR and Co. may decide that given the massive change in direction of the management, that a leadership change is also required for a "fresh start" with the rest of changes that are likely coming.   However, they may stay the course with him if they feel that his leadership abilities are in sync with where they want this franchise to go, especially given the $ that will be freed up if he's traded and the good return they'll get back for him.   Love the guy as a person, but we all have to admit that he sort of got that "C" by default when the Sedins retired and he was about the only guy they could give it to.   So don't be surprised if he's gone too. 

Lol.  The Green excuse doesn't work when players like Miller, Pearson,  EP, BB and even QHs this year WITH Green (his production hasn't gone up under Bruce has it?!), had their best seasons - under Green.   Green is gone but Podz and Hogs are struggling - anyone notice that?   But it's all Greens fault.   At some point - you have to look at this from a lens that is well just your eyeballs.   What i saw happen to EP - was getting mugged by Matheson, and later the same year live - couldn't wait to see this phenom - so eyes were glued on him every single shift - get mugged again by that CAR then MTL piece of crap with too many vowels.   There is a reason he slipped to us, and that's because EP has to endure the rigours of NHL players - not SHL.   When i see the bambi memes during the GDT i cringe a little because that could be what we have, and until he hits the gym and makes sure his body can survive, what we see now is what we've got.  He's timid and who wouldn't be after those injuries.  That is not on Green, that's on JB for not putting one tough Moffo on the ice every time he's on the ice too.    I'd bet every dollar in my bank account, that if he had a Semenko or Probert on his wing that EP would be right back to the player he was the first 30 games.   Not going to happen - and i'm not sure he will dedicate himself to the gym either.  

[Timråfan]

To be in the core you have to be under 27 years old. 
Those guys that are 26 now, Horvat, Motte and Lammiko, are great ”veterans” when the window open so I would include them in an extended ”core”. That way the Team will be stronger with more sacrificing. Similar to when Tanev, Stecher and Marky were here.

Podz and Hogz should be members of the core also because it sends a strong signal to the player we draft that we take care of them and let them grow in the organisation.

 

Benning was a disaster with capspace, team building and prospects. 
I hope those three aspects of the GM will improve drastically.

 

[IBatch]

20 minutes ago, Timråfan said:

To be in the core you have to be under 27 years old. 
Those guys that are 26 now, Horvat, Motte and Lammiko, are great ”veterans” when the window open so I would include them in an extended ”core”. That way the Team will be stronger with more sacrificing. Similar to when Tanev, Stecher and Marky were here.

Podz and Hogz should be members of the core also because it sends a strong signal to the player we draft that we take care of them and let them grow in the organisation.

 

Benning was a disaster with capspace, team building and prospects. 
I hope those three aspects of the GM will improve drastically.

 

I get what your saying.   That we should be trading older vets that are in our core now (Miller - maybe Horvat) and building around the younger guys.   It's ok to have those older guys, most teams that win a cup have them.   One thing i think the entire CDC can agree on - we are not there yet.   And change needs to occur to get there.   The ascension from the young guys JB assembled truly isn't enough.

 

Edit:  Point is - JB prematurely went with what he had.   We didn't properly bottom out - and need to either fix this via some tough trades, or regroup around the guys we have.   Some of that could mean we have some more suffering coming up.   As a long time fan i'm 100% ok with it.   Thing is Demko isn't going to make it easy for us lol.   So .... we have to tweak what we have, draft incredibly well ... and hope for the best.    History shows it takes a couple cores for this team to get back to something decent.  We are close .... Allvin and JR will make those tough decisions.    And if they make the right ones, we could be a force later.    

Edited February 4, 2022 by IBatch

[Harold Drunken]

On 2/2/2022 at 9:23 AM, HKSR said:

Here's what a 4 year plan COULD look like keeping everybody we have and yet still upgrading our defence on the right hand side.

Shows we don't NEED to trade anybody in the core and still be able to improve our roster.  Hamonic should be back next year with covid hopefully in the rear view mirror.  He walks and then we can make our UFA signing of a stay at home RHD like Mayfield for 2023-24.

 

Re-signings

JT Mller at $8.5M AAV

Boeser at $7.25M AAV

Bo at $7.25M AAV

Petey at $8.5M AAV

Motte at $2M AAV

Hogs at $3M AAV (bridge)

Podz at $3M AAV (bridge)

 

Trades and Movement

Pearson traded by 2023-24

Dickinson traded by 2023-24

Poolman traded by 2023-24

Lockwood, Rathbone, and Klimovich/Karlsson joins the team

 

UFA Signing in 2023-24:  Scott Mayfield or equivalent RHD for $4.5M AAV

 

Lines by 2023-24:

 

Hoglander-Petey-Boeser

Podz-Miller-Motte

Garland-Bo-Klimovich

ELC/4F-Lamikko-Lockwood

 

Hughes-Mayfield

OEL-Myers

Rathbone-Schenn

 

Demko

 

 EDIT:  If you're interested, I did the same exercise assuming Miller is traded for Chytil and Schneider here for comparison:

 

 

 

You're missing the big point, this is a roster up against the cap that fails to reach the playoffs. This is a roster that hasn't progressed and can't seem to compete with the good teams in the league with any consistency. This is a roster that has troubles producing offense and special teams is an Achilles heel.  Management is not going to keep the status quo because that status quo has not been producing the expected results.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Harold Drunken

[Harold Drunken]

13 hours ago, Alflives said:

What about Boeser at 6 mil, and a long term of 6,7, or 8 years?  

I just don't see based on what Boeser has showed with his inconsistencies why you would want him for that long....I feel like he's regressed almost every year essentially (albeit a couple shorter seasons and a good year last year) but Boeser just doesn't seem to be the impact player he once was. You're bang on at $6, I'm just not sure I'd risk a contract that long, maybe it's just me but unless it's an elite talent or franchise player I hate super long contracts.

 

The fact that Boeser essentially disappears for long stretches at as time make me nervous about re-signing him...I feel like we could get a more consistent 40-50 point winger for less or equal in $$.The fact that his 6th year in the league he still hasn't become a consistent, reliable offensive producer and only 24 points this year is concerning. Brock isn't the type of player that has much value unless he's scoring as he's not great defensively and doesn't kill penalties etc. He's needs to score, period. 5 years ago I would have told you Boeser is a key, exciting part of the bright future of this team, now it really doesn't look that way.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Harold Drunken

[Harold Drunken]

22 hours ago, aGENT said:

If Benning wasn't so "stupid" we wouldn't have Miller now, to sell for all those assets, that are worth far more than we paid to obtain him.

In Benning's case, the old adage if you swing enough times you're likely to hit one or two rings true. His trade batting average was not good, but Miller was a home run.

[24K PureCool]

6 hours ago, komodo0921 said:

Imo, the core of this team is:

Miller 

Petey

Horvat

Garland

Hughes

Demko

Discussions on trades can be had about anyone else on the roster but, for me, these are my untouchables.

And what had that core gotten us?

 

We need to be way worse than what we are right now before we get better. Yes this team needs a full on rebuild centered around Petey, Hughes, and Demko as the spine for now. If Petey can't go back to form next season then burn it down as we are just wasting Demko and Hughes then. 

[CanucksJay]

On 2/2/2022 at 10:49 AM, Gawdzukes said:

Apparently we're a Cup contender already. Who knew?  You call that an upgrade on RD? Motte on the second line? Klimovich playing already? That's a pretty awful looking team and our biggest problem RD still hasn't been addressed. You also have no pressbox players and zero flexibility. I don't want the job of making these decisions but I'm sure glad you don't.  Joking but if it goes your way I'll be massively surprised. 

 

Also, Miller isn't re-signing here so you'll have to replace him via UFA or elc. 

That Nashville game was a huge disappointment for me. 

I want to see this team under a new light after the switch to BB. 

Cgy was disappointing but we are missing 3 D men that would normally play.  Defense didn't change for Nashville but i thought they'd play better. 

I think TDL (mid March) gives us just the right amount of time to tell whether we were pretenders under BB or whether we legitimately have a good team. 

I believe we'll get hammer back soon. 

That means we have our top 4 on defense healthy. If Burroughs and Poolman come back soon as well we'll have our full roster. 

The question then will shift to, whether the lack of offense was due to inept forwards or there wasn't a good enough breakout and puck skill from d the with half our guys  on the back end out of the line up. 

If we see our goals come up, we'll understand that lack of offense was a team issue as we were missing half our starters on defense. 

If everyone is back and we still arent generating offense and losing games, then sure, look to trade some pieces. 

 

[Nucker 67]

Miller cost Benning:

 

(G) Marek Mazanek

3rd (2019) - (G) Hugo Alnefelt

1st (2020) - (LD) Shakir Mukhamadullin

 

This was Benning's best trade by far, especially if Allvin gets the return some think he could.

 

possibly:

 

Player - (C) Filip Chytil?

Prospect - (LD) Nils Lundkvist?

1st

 

That is called a good investment, good job Canucks (if they trade him)

 

 

 

 

[aGENT]

23 minutes ago, Harold Drunken said:

In Benning's case, the old adage if you swing enough times you're likely to hit one or two rings true. His trade batting average was not good, but Miller was a home run.

Narrative spin.

 

Baer, Granlund, Motte, Miller, OEL, Garland, Pearson etc all brought more than they cost us. And nobody bats 100.

 

And he's not here any more. You can stop letting him haunt your dreams.

[IBatch]

26 minutes ago, Harold Drunken said:

I just don't see based on what Boeser has showed with his inconsistencies why you would want him for that long....I feel like he's regressed almost every year essentially (albeit a couple shorter seasons and a good year last year) but Boeser just doesn't seem to be the impact player he once was. You're bang on at $6, I'm just not sure I'd risk a contract that long, maybe it's just me but unless it's an elite talent or franchise player I hate super long contracts.

 

The fact that Boeser essentially disappears for long stretches at as time make me nervous about re-signing him...I feel like we could get a more consistent 40-50 point winger for less or equal in $$.The fact that his 6th year in the league he still hasn't become a consistent, reliable offensive producer and only 24 points this year is concerning. Brock isn't the type of player that has much value unless he's scoring as he's not great defensively and doesn't kill penalties etc. He's needs to score, period. 5 years ago I would have told you Boeser is a key, exciting part of the bright future of this team, now it really doesn't look that way.

Last year Brock was great for us.  One of the better RWs in the league.   This year has been very disappointing from the pre-season until Dec...why JB and TG are gonzo.     IF Brock played like he did last season, we'd be looking forward to signing him long term.   He hasn't.   Reality is he's a good cap hit long term at 5-6, much more then that he's taking up too much space.     And facing reality i fully expect him to be taken to arbitration, and dealt with next season.   He's a wash.   Miller on the other hand is a desirable asset that we could trade to help later. 

 

Not to be too revisionist but this is only post Sedin 3.   And their that last contract absolutely sealed our fate.   We were screwed the moment the ink dried as far as something that would resemble a quick rebuild - added with the stupid clauses that went right down to Hansen. The previous core was a disaster for any manager to navigate.   Now.   Well it's kind of like the pre-Keenan and Keenan years all wrapped into one - the only difference is we don't have anything close to on paper that we had back then (the best collection of players all-time).   Finally we have assets we can sell that aren't claused up and have value.    Sell them - don't sell them.   Who knows what the best course is.

 

Can say this.  The fly in the ointment is Demko.   He's a lot like Gibson in ANA.   Even with that guy (he's a great goalie BTW) they still sucked.   Without him they'd have been a bottom feeder as first overall best odds for quite a few years.    Demko isn't going to allow us to bottom out again.    Maybe - just maybe he's the guy we should also consider trading.   Goalies don't typically get a great return though - that's a metric management will also be considering..but we won't bottom out with him either.   Maybe that's what we need next season.   Too bad he's not on the "LTIR" because that would be the perfect storm for the Canucks.  Trade Miller for replacements we need on C and RHD, suck the rest of this year and the next one - and then have a gigantic bounce back.  

[aGENT]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

Edit:  Point is - JB prematurely went with what he had.   We didn't properly bottom out - and need to either fix this via some tough trades, or regroup around the guys we have.   Some of that could mean we have some more suffering coming up.   As a long time fan i'm 100% ok with it.   Thing is Demko isn't going to make it easy for us lol.   So .... we have to tweak what we have, draft incredibly well ... and hope for the best.    History shows it takes a couple cores for this team to get back to something decent.  We are close .... Allvin and JR will make those tough decisions.    And if they make the right ones, we could be a force later.    

We'll never know what his next steps would have been now, but I'm not sure we can say that.

 

IMO, we had a little mini window there with good kids on ELC/bridge deals and some solid vets around them (and got one good run out of them).

 

But times they are a changing. That mini-window is now closed. And if we want to open that young core's window, yes we need to make some hard trades, and sell high on guys like Miller, that everyone likes.

 

If not we're doomed to stagnate, be middling and then decline and bottom out, wasting years of the young core's prime.

[IBatch]

Just now, aGENT said:

We'll never know what his next steps would have been now, but I'm not sure we can say that.

 

IMO, we had a little mini window there with good kids on ELC/bridge deals and some solid vets around them (and got one good run out of them).

 

But times they are a changing. That mini-window is now closed. And if we want to open that young core's window, yes we need to make some hard trades, and sell high on guys like Miller, that everyone likes.

 

If not we're doomed to stagnate, be middling and then decline and bottom out, wasting years of the young core's prime.

Having looked all the way back to when the cap started - the only teams that won with their kids on their ELCs were Staal (CAR), and CHI with their first cup (last year too).... so forgave JB for that already.   Yes who knows what the next steps would have been.   What is unforgivable, is been a cap team during the down years.  

[Gawdzukes]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

Lol.  The Green excuse doesn't work when players like Miller, Pearson,  EP, BB and even QHs this year WITH Green (his production hasn't gone up under Bruce has it?!), had their best seasons - under Green.   Green is gone but Podz and Hogs are struggling - anyone notice that?   But it's all Greens fault.   At some point - you have to look at this from a lens that is well just your eyeballs.   What i saw happen to EP - was getting mugged by Matheson, and later the same year live - couldn't wait to see this phenom - so eyes were glued on him every single shift - get mugged again by that CAR then MTL piece of crap with too many vowels.   There is a reason he slipped to us, and that's because EP has to endure the rigours of NHL players - not SHL.   When i see the bambi memes during the GDT i cringe a little because that could be what we have, and until he hits the gym and makes sure his body can survive, what we see now is what we've got.  He's timid and who wouldn't be after those injuries.  That is not on Green, that's on JB for not putting one tough Moffo on the ice every time he's on the ice too.    I'd bet every dollar in my bank account, that if he had a Semenko or Probert on his wing that EP would be right back to the player he was the first 30 games.   Not going to happen - and i'm not sure he will dedicate himself to the gym either.  

Irrevocable damage from Green? These people are such fools that say that. That's only one reason I have that moron on block. I mean he's a bad coach fine. But he's caused the best players in the world irreparable damage by talking hockey to them? C'mon ... just too stupid it's not like it's the early 80's and he's literally beating them physically or stealing their souls with cruel mental whiplashing. It's Green, he couldn't hurt a fly, it looks like he could kill a mean bottle of bourbon and get drunk stupid ... but kill someone's career with bad coaching? Bobby Orr ... done in by repeated knee injuries, Vladimir Konstantinov  almost died in a horrific car crash and never walked again, Pelle Lindbergh did die in a car crash, Petterson ... exposed to bad systems. All good players careers who ended too early. RIP 

 

Anyways got off topic a bit there sorry. I don't know if just having a tough guy would work with Petterson. I don't think it's the intimidation or hits per se he has trouble with. He hasn't really missed many games with the Matheson or Kotkavowelmi guy hits. A tough player that can create space and has the skill and speed would be great. Mark Stone's are hard to find though. You know upon reflection I'm a little back and fourth on the issue. Petterson is actually tied for 3rd most points on the team and fourth in goals. He hurt himself by not being at training camp and he's coming off a pretty serious wrist injury. His play of late has been slightly encouraging. I'm willing to give him a mulligan after this year. I'm guessing he absolutely works his butt off this summer and we see the results next year.

[aGENT]

7 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

I don't think any of our young core are real busts, they've all produced well and played well at times. My concern is this - is this core we have as good as other team's young cores? For example, is Pettersson as good as Barkov? Is Hughes as good as Ekblad? Simple answer is no.

Too early to tell IMO. Those guys are in their primes, ours aren't. And Hughes/Ekblad are completely different players. But I'd say Hughes is at least comparable to Makar, and they seem to be doing ok

 

7 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

Do they have to be? Probably not, but they have to be as good as the young cores they'll be contending against in a few years time. My main concern with this core is the playoffs, to we have the toughness and size to contend against taking a battering? Hughes is a small guy who is going to get targetted physically in a 7 game series big time. Pettersson the same. We saw Vegas grind them down in the playoffs, and many teams will do just this to our core. That's why I quite like Miller - he's a big, strong top line center who can take a beating and still score.

 

Hughes has been brilliant defensively this season, he's really used his skating and positioning well to beat out a lot of good forwards. But how is his small frame going to last 7 games x several series against big strong forwards hitting him into the boards every time he goes back for the puck? 

 

I think we need a big, strong, two-way defender in that core who can complement Hughes and draw attention away from him. We need a guy like Myers or a rich-man's Schenn in our prospect pool to insert into this young core. Rathbone is not the answer.

They did pretty well in our little bubble there IMO. Two of our better players in fact. And they were basically both rookies still.

 

But yes, they need more support in any longer term build. And yes, that's precisely why some of us are hoping for a Miller trade that has a Schneider from the Rangers or Barron from the Avalanche coming back to be a decade long partner with Hughes.

 

7 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

As for top-line centers, you live and die by yours. Petey has shown he can be pretty good defensively in his rookie year but that dropped off a lot lately. Is he as good defensively as the Cup-winning centers like Bergeron/Krejci, Kopitar and Toews? You need a solid two-way top line center because they're the ones matched up against opposing team's top units all the time.

Petey will be his own player. And yes, he's having a down year, after an injury, missing half a season, likely a lot of offseason training, and training camp.

 

I'm not really worried, we've seen what the real Petey can do. And if he's the player in think he is, this crap season is likely to drive him to new, higher levels IMO. He's going to use this as fuel/motivation.

 

Plus we have a pretty solid 2 way center in Horvat, to help out there

 

[aGENT]

8 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Having looked all the way back to when the cap started - the only teams that won with their kids on their ELCs were Staal (CAR), and CHI with their first cup (last year too).... so forgave JB for that already.   Yes who knows what the next steps would have been.   What is unforgivable, is been a cap team during the down years.  

The cap is only a problem if we don't do the right thing about it now and move guys like Miller. If we double down, we're &^@#ed.

[Harold Drunken]

46 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Narrative spin.

 

Baer, Granlund, Motte, Miller, OEL, Garland, Pearson etc all brought more than they cost us. And nobody bats 100.

 

And he's not here any more. You can stop letting him haunt your dreams.

No, When you compare that list with the list of misses it becomes much less impressive (perspective).   Seeing as though we're only half way season into the Garland and OEL trade and this team is likely missing the playoffs again and bottom of the league in scoring most people consider it a win only because we got rid of bad players and contracts but the trade has actually failed to have the desired effect which is make this team better and make/compete in the playoffs. Hot take, I know (I'm still a fan of the trade don't get me wrong) Stating a half a dozen successes doesn't exonerate his complete failures and misses, you can't just deflect that. And of course nobody bats 100 you're just stating the obvious.

 

Benning built this team, so he's not irrelevant.  haunting our dreams is his fault not ours lol

 

P.S you stating the Baertschi trade as a notch on his belt is actually hilarious.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Harold Drunken

[Harold Drunken]

46 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Last year Brock was great for us.  One of the better RWs in the league.   This year has been very disappointing from the pre-season until Dec...why JB and TG are gonzo.     IF Brock played like he did last season, we'd be looking forward to signing him long term.   He hasn't.   Reality is he's a good cap hit long term at 5-6, much more then that he's taking up too much space.     And facing reality i fully expect him to be taken to arbitration, and dealt with next season.   He's a wash.   Miller on the other hand is a desirable asset that we could trade to help later. 

 

Not to be too revisionist but this is only post Sedin 3.   And their that last contract absolutely sealed our fate.   We were screwed the moment the ink dried as far as something that would resemble a quick rebuild - added with the stupid clauses that went right down to Hansen. The previous core was a disaster for any manager to navigate.   Now.   Well it's kind of like the pre-Keenan and Keenan years all wrapped into one - the only difference is we don't have anything close to on paper that we had back then (the best collection of players all-time).   Finally we have assets we can sell that aren't claused up and have value.    Sell them - don't sell them.   Who knows what the best course is.

 

Can say this.  The fly in the ointment is Demko.   He's a lot like Gibson in ANA.   Even with that guy (he's a great goalie BTW) they still sucked.   Without him they'd have been a bottom feeder as first overall best odds for quite a few years.    Demko isn't going to allow us to bottom out again.    Maybe - just maybe he's the guy we should also consider trading.   Goalies don't typically get a great return though - that's a metric management will also be considering..but we won't bottom out with him either.   Maybe that's what we need next season.   Too bad he's not on the "LTIR" because that would be the perfect storm for the Canucks.  Trade Miller for replacements we need on C and RHD, suck the rest of this year and the next one - and then have a gigantic bounce back.  

Agreed, this fan base really likes to hold on to the glimmer of hope that was the 2019/2020 playoffs. That's the example now for this teams abilities even though we're likely missing the playoffs again for the 6th time in 7 years. That playoff run was an anomaly and we over achieved. Truth is, Demko is likely the only reason we made it here and the only reason we won any rounds. He played like a man possessed and without him single handedly stealing games we don't get past the qualifying round. That playoff was 2 years ago and is no longer relevant.

 

P.S no way in god's green earth are they trading Demko. He's our young goalie of the future coming into his prime. It's so hard to find quality goaltending they wouldn't do that. Even with DiPietro coming through the system. They will try and build in front of Demko, he's our best player this year up there with Miller. 

 

 

Edited February 4, 2022 by Harold Drunken

[Harold Drunken]

1 hour ago, aGENT said:

Narrative spin.

 

Baer, Granlund, Motte, Miller, OEL, Garland, Pearson etc all brought more than they cost us. And nobody bats 100.

 

And he's not here any more. You can stop letting him haunt your dreams.

Speaking of narrative spins -  let's dive into that Baertschi trade a little closer since it was such a savvy trade from Jim.

 

Vancouver traded their second round pick in 2015 for Sven. Sven played 4 "meaningful" seasons in Vancouver with his best season being 35 points in 68 games, then failed to make the very average roster the following 2 years and struggled with injuries.

 

Calgary then used that second round pick to select Rasmus Andersson, now a top pairing defenseman for them and a very solid NHL player.

 

 

So....please - explain how that was a good trade. I'll wait. 

Edited February 4, 2022 by Harold Drunken