The Philosophy discussion

[Ilunga]

Another member suggested a thread in which we can discuss philosophy. 

 

I was prompted to do this after reading a discussion some posters had with one poster about the guy that was involved in the mass shooting in Buffalo. 

 

I believe most members know how I feel about morality and a sense of justice.

 

However who am I or  you reading this to say that our morals/ sense of justice is correct ?

 

Who, if anyone is the 

arbiter of what is morally right or wrong.

 

I believe that we should treat each other, the way we expect to be treated, however am I correct to believe this ?

 

Why do many of us believe a person like trump, to be acting in a manner we consider wrong ? 

What makes us right to believe this ? 

 

 

Also feel free to discuss the usual big questions

 

Is there a purpose to our lives ? 

 

Do we really have free will ?

 

Can you really experience anything objectively ? 

 

What are numbers ?

 

[Nuxfanabroad]

Hi Ilunga,  Hope all is well in your corner of the world. Some big questions there, & you'll likely get an interesting collection of replies. From my own personal experiences, had pretty much given up on mulling these things too deeply.

 

In my mid-5o's now, feel it mostly boils down to 1 question. What comes afterwards? Whether it's Islam, Buddhism, Shinto, Christian, etc.. that one worships, does one live in accordance to the assumption that one's life/actions will ultimately be judged?

 

If folks believe nothing comes after, I fear they will live their lives with ZERO regard for others, on the presumption that there's no 'trip to the box'. I don't want to say an atheist cannot live conscientiously. Don't feel confident enough in this realm, to make such an assertion. But there's a certain humility in deference to a higher power. Can't help but wonder if modern society has disregarded this priority, to it's overall detriment?

 

There are  2 quotes(1 I often reference) which seem to apply:

 

"To be well-adjusted in a profoundly sick society is no measure of one's mental health."   -Krishnamurti

 

"Judge a man not by what he tells you, but by the questions he asks."           - Voltaire

[Ilunga]

11 minutes ago, Nuxfanabroad said:

Hi Ilunga,  Hope all is well in your corner of the world. Some big questions there, & you'll likely get an interesting collection of replies. From my own personal experiences, had pretty much given up on mulling these things too deeply.

 

In my mid-5o's now, feel it mostly boils down to 1 question. What comes afterwards? Whether it's Islam, Buddhism, Shinto, Christian, etc.. that one worships, does one live in accordance to the assumption that one's life/actions will ultimately be judged?

 

If folks believe nothing comes after, I fear they will live their lives with ZERO regard for others, on the presumption that there's no 'trip to the box'. I don't want to say an atheist cannot live conscientiously. Don't feel confident enough in this realm, to make such an assertion. But there's a certain humility in deference to a higher power. Can't help but wonder if modern society has disregarded this priority, to it's overall detriment?

 

There are  2 quotes(1 I often reference) which seem to apply:

 

"To be well-adjusted in a profoundly sick society is no measure of one's mental health."   -Krishnamurti

 

"Judge a man not by what he tells you, but by the questions he asks."           - Voltaire

Hi my friend.

 

Going through a hard time in my life right now however I believe that a big part of what defines a person is how they deal with adversity.  

 

I am in my late fifties, one does feel their mortality as the decades slide by. 

 

I have always believed, and the events of the last five years have reinforced my belief that all we can take to the grave is being true to ourselves. 

 

Since my teens I have never believed in the human constructs that our species define as gods. 

 

What some define as a spirit/ soul I would define as our minds.  

 

Both those quotes are very pertinent to a philosophical discussion, what connects them is our minds. 

 

I have posted this article on this forum before however I don't know if you have read it. 

 

https://suebrayne.co.uk/2011/03/28/professor-brian-cox-god-and-the-universe/

 

This kinda sums up my feelings on this particular subject.

[thrago]

2 hours ago, Nuxfanabroad said:

Hi Ilunga,  Hope all is well in your corner of the world. Some big questions there, & you'll likely get an interesting collection of replies. From my own personal experiences, had pretty much given up on mulling these things too deeply.

 

In my mid-5o's now, feel it mostly boils down to 1 question. What comes afterwards? Whether it's Islam, Buddhism, Shinto, Christian, etc.. that one worships, does one live in accordance to the assumption that one's life/actions will ultimately be judged?

 

If folks believe nothing comes after, I fear they will live their lives with ZERO regard for others, on the presumption that there's no 'trip to the box'. I don't want to say an atheist cannot live conscientiously. Don't feel confident enough in this realm, to make such an assertion. But there's a certain humility in deference to a higher power. Can't help but wonder if modern society has disregarded this priority, to it's overall detriment?

 

There are  2 quotes(1 I often reference) which seem to apply:

 

"To be well-adjusted in a profoundly sick society is no measure of one's mental health."   -Krishnamurti

 

"Judge a man not by what he tells you, but by the questions he asks."           - Voltaire

I was going to get into a long post about how wrong your thinking is, but instead I will just say this.  If someone needs the fear of God. etc etc, to be a good person, how good of a person are they really?

[-DLC-]

Funny how this sort of ties into a discussion I had last night.

 

There's been a big car parked outside our complex for weeks - I guess others have noticed it as I have. Mostly because the tail end was slightly past the curb and as you drove out of our parking lot you couldn't help but notice it.

 

There's also a suspected crackhouse across the street, but there hasn't really been much disruption from it. My neighbours who can see the house say the cops show up there regularly, but it's pretty quiet considering. I mean, the only sign of life I've seen from the house was a guy sitting on the hood of a beat up truck playing guitar and singing. Loudly.

 

So last night as I drove out my neighbour (a guy who's on council but rarely does anything I find useful) flagged me down from his deck. I rolled down my window and he said "I'm going to send you a text with a picture of a car...let me know if it's out there when you drive out". I told him I already knew exactly which car he was referring to and no it wasn't. I'd just driven in a few minutes before and it was gone.

 

When I got home later I saw the text/picture he'd sent - was the same car I'd seen. I sent a text back saying "yes, I know that car....I believe it's a homeless guy. Older guy, saw a pillow in the back. And the other day the passenger side door was open with a towel hanging on it in the sun. I feel a little sorry for him and was going to ask if he needs anything".

 

He called me and barked "don't do that, don't encourage him to hang around....he's probably from the crackhouse".

 

I thought how different we viewed this guy. To him, a problem, an infestation and something to be rid of.

 

But I have family who've lived that life and they were good people. They got swallowed up in it and were broken, but not garbage that you sweep away. It hurts to see people in that state.

 

I always knew we had different ways of thinking and it's not really a wrong/right thing because who knows? Maybe it'll be a matter of "there goes the neighbourhood" as he is anticipating and it's best not to encourage them to stick around. But maybe if people are shown compassion and given a hand up it'll trigger something positive?

 

I got where my neighbour was coming from...he has young kids and concerns about safety. We have a pretty good neighbourhood watch going and so that's part of it. But that was a human being I saw, not a threat. The car's been there awhile but I hadn't seen anyone until the other day when the pillow and towel were there and I caught a glimpse of a balding, grey haired man.

 

I feel like objective is very much subjective (if that makes sense). As it is here. I'm trying to see my neighbour's side in it (and do), but it doesn't change how my heart reacts.

 

I wish our purpose was more about the big picture and not just focused on our own lives. That we could take a moment to think of what others are going through, not just how they may impact us. COVID's really given me reason to stop and think about what's important and what's not. Seeing people band together to try to fight this thing showed me that we really do rely on others. And they should be able to rely on us as well.

 

My contribution in this is very surface value...but I did stop and think about how sad I'd be if my neighbour just chased this guy out forcefully without knowing anything about why he's there. Or caring.

 

My neighbour who flagged me down (and his friend in there who's also on council) is quite religious and tends to exude a "holier than thou" attitude at times.

 

I tend to see that some get involved in religion as more of a country club deal. Belonging. Preaching. (Bragging?). Moreso than anything positive on display. Not everyone...but some that I've encountered who use it to demonstrate how good they are. Which, in itself, is a little suspect to me. This is not to be taken as a slam against religion...more an observation of what I've experienced.

 

 

 

 

[JM_]

Don't make your religion my religion. 

[thrago]

5 hours ago, Ilunga said:

Another member suggested a thread in which we can discuss philosophy. 

 

I was prompted to do this after reading a discussion some posters had with one poster about the guy that was involved in the mass shooting in Buffalo. 

 

I believe most members know how I feel about morality and a sense of justice.

 

However who am I or  you reading this to say that our morals/ sense of justice is correct ?

 

Who, if anyone is the 

arbiter of what is morally right or wrong.

 

I believe that we should treat each other, the way we expect to be treated, however am I correct to believe this ?

 

Why do many of us believe a person like trump, to be acting in a manner we consider wrong ? 

What makes us right to believe this ? 

 

 

Also feel free to discuss the usual big questions

 

Is there a purpose to our lives ? 

 

Do we really have free will ?

 

Can you really experience anything objectively ? 

 

What are numbers ?

 

I think that a large part of the problem we currently have is social media and beyond that the AI that runs SM.  If you look up an opinion on Youtube  for an example, your feed will start getting filled up with more content with that opinion reinforcing that opinion giving you reinforcement bias.  A lot of people can see past this and form there own opinions however if you already have an opinion that is biased in one direction social media will continue to reinforce it. 

 

So for example if you look up why is Trump bad you will continue to get videos of why Trump is bad similarly if you do the same search for Biden.  The days of unbiased news are gone in both social media and main stream media.  At this point I think it's prudent to take all forms of media with a grain of salt and use your best judgement.  This is hard for a lot of people if not most people and that is a problem that has no easy fix. Netflix has a documentary called "The social Dilemma" which explains it better than I can. I personally try to stay away from social media as much as I can, we need to remember that all forms of media are businesses trying to make money and doom and gloom sells way better then sunshine and rainbows. 

 

Despite what media tries to tell us we live in the best time overall that people have in history.   

[falcon45ca]

1 hour ago, JM_ said:

Don't make your religion my religion. 

That is the mandate for some religions tho...how can you expect them to follow their religion & not push it on you, when their religion requires they do so?

[Chickenspear]

10 minutes ago, falcon45ca said:

That is the mandate for some religions tho...how can you expect them to follow their religion & not push it on you, when their religion requires they do so?

Pass them a pamphlet on Atheism, and another on evolution? Fight fire with fire.

[Gurn]

If it is a Jehovah Witness banging on your door, ask them to come back when their religion turns 200 yrs old.

[nux_win]

Many religions think that they have a monopoly over ethics.  That isn't so.  Many people who abandon religion or may think about abandoning religion are worried that they will or have lost any foundation to ethical behavior.  This is also untrue.  Morality and ethics can and do exist outside of any religious framework and are not dependent on any god.  Secular ethics is a well studied though not very widely known branch of formal philosophy.  

 

That's not to say that religion doesn't contain any ethics, but it is only a very low level kind of ethics and people often get stuck at that low level and never progress.  When one learns ethics, like many things, one goes through stages.  Avoiding doing "wrong" based on fear of punishment from a higher authority is only a small step on the road towards more advanced ethical behavior.  Real ethical behavior means that one does the right thing simply because it's the right thing and there is no punishment or reward involved.  Below is a quick introduction to secular ethics and the stages that one goes through as one learns morality.  Religion may help people get to the first stage but they often get stuck there (fearing punishment is only the first step towards real morality).

 

I think that it is a real shame that people often defer to religion for ethics when they don't really accept the rest of the package that comes with religion.  And the kind of ethics that religion offers is pretty low level.  People are free to believe what they want but if people are interested in ethics then it doesn't require any kind of supernatural force.  Humans are capable of ethical behavior all on their own.  It doesn't always happen but we have the capacity if we so choose.  I think that religion was helpful to humanity to get started along the path to ethics but like an evolutionary vestige it no longer serves a purpose in this regard.

 

P.S. - I choose free will even if it turns out to be an illusion.

 

[JM_]

15 minutes ago, falcon45ca said:

That is the mandate for some religions tho...how can you expect them to follow their religion & not push it on you, when their religion requires they do so?

because I can make up a religion this afternoon focused on taking away their rights, and its just as valid as one they claim is 2000 years old.

 

And its a choice they are making, they don't have to choose that religion, or more likely pick and choose which parts of a religion they decide they want to follow today. 

 

And because we don't live in a theocratic society in Canada. One of many religions doesn't get to set the law for all of us.

 

And finally because their religious choice can't infringe on my legal right to determine the path of my life. 

 

Basically their "manadate" carries no legal weight, up here. A lot of the US (and other countries) is trying hard to change that tho, which is pretty scary stuff. 

[JM_]

4 minutes ago, gurn said:

If it is a Jehovah Witness banging on your door, ask them to come back when their religion turns 200 yrs old.

or follow a religion who's saviour is named "Ron"  - sorry Scientology. 

[Toni Zamboni]

the universe is a question.
there are really no answers, only more questions disguised as answers.
the reason you will never ever fully understand the universe is because if you pose a question and input an answer you will be inevitably creating more questions.
think of it like a feedback loop.

[Angry Goose]

One of biggest influences in Philosophy is Derek Parfit.  He was one of the few people on this earth who was granted a fellowship with All Souls College / Oxford University. He wasnt expected to instruct/ teach at all-just focus on his work.  His last book, On What Matters, tackles a lot of your questions pertaining to ethics.  It’s probably my favourite philosophy text.  You can even download it for free if you search for “climbing the mountain” as he freely shared it pre publication to invite feedback/suggestions.  Of course its not the finished product though.  Ive included a small excerpt from it, and its one of my favorite intros.  Although subtle, there’s alot of nuance in it and it changed how I think about analytical philosophy/ reasoning about certain topics.

[J.I.A.H.N]

Very Deep question @Ilunga

 

The child asks why? The answer is situational and therefore multifaceted 

 

Man as a species is a situational creature, his morals, thought processes, and acceptances are situational

 

 

 

Personally,

 

I believe, what I believe today, I may not believe tomorrow

 

I believe to always question

 

I believe man is good, and I believe man is evil

 

I believe man is situational

 

I believe philosophy is situational

 

 

 

[Ilunga]

10 hours ago, -DLC- said:

Funny how this sort of ties into a discussion I had last night.

 

There's been a big car parked outside our complex for weeks - I guess others have noticed it as I have. Mostly because the tail end was slightly past the curb and as you drove out of our parking lot you couldn't help but notice it.

 

There's also a suspected crackhouse across the street, but there hasn't really been much disruption from it. My neighbours who can see the house say the cops show up there regularly, but it's pretty quiet considering. I mean, the only sign of life I've seen from the house was a guy sitting on the hood of a beat up truck playing guitar and singing. Loudly.

 

So last night as I drove out my neighbour (a guy who's on council but rarely does anything I find useful) flagged me down from his deck. I rolled down my window and he said "I'm going to send you a text with a picture of a car...let me know if it's out there when you drive out". I told him I already knew exactly which car he was referring to and no it wasn't. I'd just driven in a few minutes before and it was gone.

 

When I got home later I saw the text/picture he'd sent - was the same car I'd seen. I sent a text back saying "yes, I know that car....I believe it's a homeless guy. Older guy, saw a pillow in the back. And the other day the passenger side door was open with a towel hanging on it in the sun. I feel a little sorry for him and was going to ask if he needs anything".

 

He called me and barked "don't do that, don't encourage him to hang around....he's probably from the crackhouse".

 

I thought how different we viewed this guy. To him, a problem, an infestation and something to be rid of.

 

But I have family who've lived that life and they were good people. They got swallowed up in it and were broken, but not garbage that you sweep away. It hurts to see people in that state.

 

I always knew we had different ways of thinking and it's not really a wrong/right thing because who knows? Maybe it'll be a matter of "there goes the neighbourhood" as he is anticipating and it's best not to encourage them to stick around. But maybe if people are shown compassion and given a hand up it'll trigger something positive?

 

I got where my neighbour was coming from...he has young kids and concerns about safety. We have a pretty good neighbourhood watch going and so that's part of it. But that was a human being I saw, not a threat. The car's been there awhile but I hadn't seen anyone until the other day when the pillow and towel were there and I caught a glimpse of a balding, grey haired man.

 

I feel like objective is very much subjective (if that makes sense). As it is here. I'm trying to see my neighbour's side in it (and do), but it doesn't change how my heart reacts.

 

I wish our purpose was more about the big picture and not just focused on our own lives. That we could take a moment to think of what others are going through, not just how they may impact us. COVID's really given me reason to stop and think about what's important and what's not. Seeing people band together to try to fight this thing showed me that we really do rely on others. And they should be able to rely on us as well.

 

My contribution in this is very surface value...but I did stop and think about how sad I'd be if my neighbour just chased this guy out forcefully without knowing anything about why he's there. Or caring.

 

My neighbour who flagged me down (and his friend in there who's also on council) is quite religious and tends to exude a "holier than thou" attitude at times.

 

I tend to see that some get involved in religion as more of a country club deal. Belonging. Preaching. (Bragging?). Moreso than anything positive on display. Not everyone...but some that I've encountered who use it to demonstrate how good they are. Which, in itself, is a little suspect to me. This is not to be taken as a slam against religion...more an observation of what I've experienced.

 

 

 

 

Now you are touching on another question that I have asked myself since my teens, what " makes" each of us the person that we are.

 

Is it nature ? 

Is it nurture ? 

 

0ver 40 years of research have lead me to believe that it is a combination of both these things and also how our brains are wired, the neural connections between the different parts of the brain.

 

I watched a doco where a researcher took 250 of the worst pyschopath's in American jail's and used an MRI machine to scan their brains. 

 

He then scanned the brains of 250 people who devoted their lives to helping others, what I would define as kind people. 

 

Even a layman like myself could see the difference in the images.

The neural pathways to the prefrontal cortex- the part of the brain that is connected with empathy and compassion- were nearly non existent in the pyschopath's brains.

In the kind peoples brains the neural pathways were strong. 

 

Our lives and our characters are shaped by events we have control over and some that we don't.

[Ilunga]

10 hours ago, JM_ said:

Don't make your religion my religion. 

Why do you make this about religion ?

 

As the title of this article states 

 

Morality Evolved first, long before Religion.

 

https://centerforinquiry.org/blog/morality_evolved_first_long_before_religion/

 

 

[Ilunga]

9 hours ago, thrago said:

I think that a large part of the problem we currently have is social media and beyond that the AI that runs SM.  If you look up an opinion on Youtube  for an example, your feed will start getting filled up with more content with that opinion reinforcing that opinion giving you reinforcement bias.  A lot of people can see past this and form there own opinions however if you already have an opinion that is biased in one direction social media will continue to reinforce it. 

 

So for example if you look up why is Trump bad you will continue to get videos of why Trump is bad similarly if you do the same search for Biden.  The days of unbiased news are gone in both social media and main stream media.  At this point I think it's prudent to take all forms of media with a grain of salt and use your best judgement.  This is hard for a lot of people if not most people and that is a problem that has no easy fix. Netflix has a documentary called "The social Dilemma" which explains it better than I can. I personally try to stay away from social media as much as I can, we need to remember that all forms of media are businesses trying to make money and doom and gloom sells way better then sunshine and rainbows. 

 

Despite what media tries to tell us we live in the best time overall that people have in history.   

No offence however you haven't really given me an answer. 

 

 

The only social media I use is this forum. 

 

I get my knowledge from books.

From research/ scholarly papers on the web.

 

I use my BS detectors. The three basic BS detectors are, who is the person informing me, what is their history, what is their motivation for disseminating the information.

 

However none of this addressess who or what defines what is ultimately right or wrong, or what right and wrong actually are.

 

[Ilunga]

9 hours ago, gurn said:

If it is a Jehovah Witness banging on your door, ask them to come back when their religion turns 200 yrs old.

I used to invite them in and give them as much intense Dave as I could.

 

It usually only took about 10 minutes then they were wanting to go.