Gurn Posted June 11, 2022 Share Posted June 11, 2022 12 minutes ago, johngould21 said: When he should be making up crap about the Leafs, and their first round exits, and their goalie coach exit. Kypper gets better results here, and with less effort; why would he change now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeanSeanBean Posted June 11, 2022 Share Posted June 11, 2022 2 hours ago, Timråfan said: How do you know that? Some of us have been long term fans and remember when events happen? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShawnAntoski Posted June 11, 2022 Share Posted June 11, 2022 (edited) 30 minutes ago, NucknAsia said: Sure but the two bolded areas you've made some assumptions Firstly, I don't fetishize fighting and the nonsense that happened in the 80's and 90's. But, hockey is a physical sport, you need big players to be physical and to hit. There's a reason for it. When you continuously hit dmen on forchecks for instance, they a) get tired b) start looking over their shoulder and often make errors which can lead to turnovers and goals. When you have size, you need to hit, its a tool you have to help your team. Second, Taylor Pyatt, Bernier, etc are not in the NHL for a reason and had below average careers for a reason. They also were not captains of an NHL team. Third, as for fighting, there's been times players have been run, Bo is on the ice, and other players, I recall two instances last season where this happened and it was OEL that jumped in. One of the players run was Podz, a rookie. Sorry, there is no excuse for this. And yes, speed and skill are exciting, but there's a reason the NHL is still not full of guys the size of Patrick Kane and Alex Debrincat....and players like Maroon, Wilson, Evander Kane exist...because size still matters, physicality still matters. If you're not going to be Pavel Bure or Henrik Sedin and be able to go out and change the game by scoring (or creating) an important goal to get your team back into it, you as a captain, need to fire the team up another way. Sorry, I just don't see that from Bo. Linden was not about fighting (he probably had less than 10 fights in his career), but he played a hard, physical game and never walked away from anything. And no you can't take a night off, the greats captains never do. Linden understood what it means to be a Captain and Bo (seems to) just want the label on his jersey; but one main thing they both have in common, albeit a brief one for Bo, is that both seems to enjoy & perform, in the playoffs - imo. I also remember that instance with Podz and it was disappointing to see Bo not engage. Anyways and preferably, Bo stays but Miller should be the Captain and I am not so sure, how that scenario would play out. Edited June 11, 2022 by ShawnAntoski 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRussianRocket1994 Posted June 11, 2022 Share Posted June 11, 2022 5 hours ago, DeltaSwede said: Was thinking about the same thing. Sometimes you can read between the lines, right? Where there is smoke, there is fire, that sort of thing. How does this country club narrative fit in with the way this team fought back after the slow start to the season? It just doesn't. How does it fit with what the players and Bruce are saying continuously? it just doesn't. How does it fit with how disappointed the players were at the end of year? it just doesn't. Great points! People need to use a little common sense / logic sometimes. The media (not all) throws crap out there, especially ones like Sekeres and a portion of this fan base falls for it every time and a s*** show ensues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME Posted June 11, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted June 11, 2022 (edited) Late to the party and don’t have time to read 11 pages, so apologies if restating anyone’s points. But as far as this story goes, I’d say this is mostly a good thing. It’s obvious that JR is tasking management to do a complete, top-to-bottom review of this organization. Standards are being set, and those found not measuring up, will be replaced. There may be some growing pains along the way, but in the end, this will only be a good thing IMO and lead to a stronger organization and better results on the ice. Edited June 11, 2022 by SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AC Readership Posted June 11, 2022 Share Posted June 11, 2022 8 minutes ago, NucknAsia said: We'll get more for Bo and keep the better player in Miller....that's the smart move, regardless of how many hearts are broken. As you said Linden brought back Bertuzzi and eventually a Sedin. Have to be smart, not emotional. I say trade Miller at the draft or during the offseason to get some players/picks/prospects to help build for the Core 3s contention window. Does Bo want to go through another retool/mini rebuild, if not the team owes it to him to trade him to a contender at the 23 Trade Deadline. I see them going after Copp, Strome, or Trocheck during FA if Miller/Bo are traded at the draft. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted June 11, 2022 Share Posted June 11, 2022 12 hours ago, J.I.A.H.N said: Dazzle, you are way off base here. All the players named were not soft, but were not aggressive in nature, What Silent Sam is alluding to, and which there are many that agree with is that hockey is an aggressive game, and a Captain should be able to lead by example, which sometimes means getting your hands dirty and rolling up you sleeves......... What does mean? It means giving a vicious hit, it means putting your gloves in someone's face, it means not allowing your team-mates get pushed around, and leading the charge in that regard. Captains like that, that come to mind are Thornton, Iginla, Crosby, Messier, and even Patrice Bergeron, to name a few. Don't get us wrong these guys did not do it every game, as all are/were Super Stars, who were meant to be on the ice and not in the box. But all are no crap type guys, that don't whine, and hold people accountable. Both Foe and team-mate. Bo is a very good player, who if more aggressive would be a greater player. The guy has a hockey player frame, and could put guys through the boards, to make a point, yet, he chooses not to. Hockey is a game of emotion, energy, and sacrifice............and that has never been Bo's game, nor was it the Sedin's game, or Naslunds game....................these guys were all extremely talented players, but none of them screamed leadership............. I remember one time hearing a mic'ed Bo, who was given a cross check, and he piped up.........."Oh, come on guys!" ...........he sounded like Opie (Ron Howard).............I thought, boy he sure did tell that guy off. Now it would have been a fine comment if he would have taken the guy through the boards next shift, but he did not...........that is not leadership................Bo is talented, yes...........a leader......nope! Keep in mind, some people like a leader as I described, some like a leader like Horvat................, some people do not like fighting in hockey, some people do............ I personally think you were wrong to call out Silent Sam as you did, but that is just me.................. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sell.the.team Posted June 11, 2022 Share Posted June 11, 2022 Bob McCown is the worst. That is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timråfan Posted June 11, 2022 Share Posted June 11, 2022 51 minutes ago, Shayster007 said: Some of us have been long term fans and remember when events happen? Not that, it is how Kingen knows the impact Miller has on the team. We actually know nothing about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Heffy Posted June 11, 2022 Share Posted June 11, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, Timråfan said: How do you know that? Well Miller clearly doesnt have the same character issues as Messier, who was the biggest piece of **** in the history of the sport, both on and off the ice. Edited June 11, 2022 by King Heffy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NucknAsia Posted June 11, 2022 Author Share Posted June 11, 2022 41 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said: showing a video of Horvat getting into one fight doesn't really negate the poster's point - its a straw man response 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Money Posted June 11, 2022 Share Posted June 11, 2022 11 hours ago, Crabcakes said: I get why you don't like Boeser, he hasn't had the same ppg since before his injury in his rookie season. I wonder about him myself. But Boeser isn't a centre which was what I was talking about. Boeser is another subject. But whether he gets signed or not is something else. I would rather see him back but to be honest, $7.5 is a lot to pay for what he has brought in recent seasons, even if for only 1 year. Personally, I think just letting Boeser walk would be absolute bonkers. At the very least, qualify him for $7.5M, and then trade him at the deadline. If he has a decent season, and we retain some salary, we'd probably be getting a 1st round pick back. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted June 11, 2022 Share Posted June 11, 2022 11 hours ago, J.I.A.H.N said: So why do this? Well, JR has options..........this option is a big aggressive team, with picks to fill the farm Horvat to NJersey for the 2022 - 2nd OA + 2023 - 2nd..........................no players back Boeser at 50% retained to Washington for Winnipeg's 2022 - 2nd and Washington's 2023-2nd...........no players back Garland to LA for Roy +? Not sure what the extra is? If any. Rathbone and McDonough for Nicolas Roy and Nicolas Hague Dickenson for a 2023 - 7th Myers for a 2023- 2nd --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2022 Draft Rounds 1, 2 and 3 2 OA.....................David Jiricek RHD...........6'3" 191 lbs 15th OA................Cutter Gauthier LW..........6'2" 189 lbs 46th OA................Noah Warren RHD..........6'5" 215 lbs 79th OA................Tyler Brennan G..............6'4" 190 lbs 2023 Draft Rounds 1, 2, and 3 Vancouver's 2023 -1st New jersey's 2023 - 2nd Vancouver's 2023 - 2nd Myers 2023 - 2nd Washington's 2023 - 2nd Vancouver's 2023 -3rd --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- UFA ......................Nicolas Paul ...................27 years old..........6'3" 219 lbs 3 year sX $4.0 UFA.......................Evander Kane.................30 years old..........6'2" 210 lbs 5 Years X $5.0 UFA.......................Nikita Zadorov.................27 years old..........6'6" 235 lbs 5 years X $4.0 UFA.......................Ilya Lyubushkin...............28 years old..........6'2" 201 lbs 3 years X $2.0 UFA.......................Vaeri Nichhushkin...........27 years old..........6'4" 210 lbs 5 years X $5.0 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Kane Pettersson Podkolzin 14 Nichhushkin Miller Hoglander 12 Pearson Paul Roy 7 Highmore Lammikko Lockwood 3 36 +29 + 6 = 71 M + Retention 5 + 2 Bonus's = 78 Million Hughes................Roy 13 OEL.....................Zadorov 11 Hague..................Lyubushkin 3 Burroughs............Schenn 2 Demko 6 Martin Yes, huge undertaking.......it may take a couple of years to complete it all with different players, but it could fit under the cap, and still have extra cap...... I think that is the point! The very fact you didn't take Reid Schaefer with your 46th pick while Warren would be there with your 79th is crazy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSVII Posted June 11, 2022 Share Posted June 11, 2022 2 hours ago, Provost said: The story is clearly just nonsense to fill time, but I have no doubt that the current management plans on putting their stamp on the team in a big way. It might take a couple seasons to turn over the roster, but what do you expect from a team that has been amongst the worst in the league for years? They didn’t hire a new President and GM just to keep the same team that hasn’t been able to get results. The team isn’t close to contending, a goal of just getting good enough to maybe be a wildcard team isn’t good enough. Oddly a lot of posters on here seem to want that based on their comments. But hey if we mortgage the farm to take this flawed roster to the playoffs.... "anything can happen!" 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 11, 2022 Share Posted June 11, 2022 5 hours ago, mll said: Rutherford thinks it was mostly thanks to Demko and talks of needing to help him out more. When talking about structure on Donnie&Dhali he said: 'Being stronger in our own end. We get in our own end and we get running around and we get bailed out by Demko a lot of times'. The private tracking company CSA has Demko saving Vancouver over 21 goals above expected - the 5th best mark in the league. Back in April Kevin Woodley was talking about how Demko operates in one of the toughest environments per CSA. Okay let's not cherry pick quotes. Rutherford is also on record as saying that he's fairly happy with our backend. Allvin said that he wants more structure from the coaching for our defensemen. The whole idea that our defensemen are abysmal is not rooted in reality. It was a point of view that was parroted a lot last summer but was proven to be wrong through one season so far. I thought that Dickinson was going to be our answer to the 3rd line center problem last summer but after watching every game last season I have to say that I was wrong and my mind has changed. People that keep beating the drum that we have a horrible defense are very stubborn. Yes, Demko was great and a top 10, maybe even top 5 goalie in the league but that's not the only reason why we were good defensively. 2020-21 season is proof enough that we can make any goalie look bad. Hughes made huge improvements year over year, and eats up 24 mins/night. OEL has been excellent and is out there for 20+ minutes. Very happy with additions of Schenn, Burroughs, Hunt, and Juulsen. One more top 4 RHD would be great, but we have a D core that can do an adequate job. Those are Rutherford's words too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NucknAsia Posted June 11, 2022 Author Share Posted June 11, 2022 1 hour ago, AC Readership said: I say trade Miller at the draft or during the offseason to get some players/picks/prospects to help build for the Core 3s contention window. Does Bo want to go through another retool/mini rebuild, if not the team owes it to him to trade him to a contender at the 23 Trade Deadline. I see them going after Copp, Strome, or Trocheck during FA if Miller/Bo are traded at the draft. I don't think we can trade both Bo and Miller. Management has to determine who to keep and move the other. Imho Its Bo that should move but others feel the opposite. To me Miller is more valuable to the team, and Bo will garner more value in a trade....He will be seen as a more cost effective great 2 way center who's younger. His leadership is overrated in the NHL and we should take adv of that. Miller is the better player, better leader, but is 1.5 years older and we'll have to suck it up on the back end of his contract. If you're building a winner, I think you want your young players to emulate the fire of Miller over go about your business Bo...just my view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NucknAsia Posted June 11, 2022 Author Share Posted June 11, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, ShawnAntoski said: Linden understood what it means to be a Captain and Bo (seems to) just want the label on his jersey; but one main thing they both have in common, albeit a brief one for Bo, is that both seems to enjoy & perform, in the playoffs - imo. I also remember that instance with Podz and it was disappointing to see Bo not engage. Anyways and preferably, Bo stays but Miller should be the Captain and I am not so sure, how that scenario would play out. This bolded area says it very well....Its a great description. Bo seems to like the title of leader but doesn't want to lead the way the team NEEDS...Being as leader means 'serving your team'...its not about you, its about what do I need to do to help my team, and what do I see in my team that it needs. Bo doesn't do that. He goes about his business and plays hard, all respectful, but doesn't really seem to understand his responsibilities are greater. As I said, if you're a 100 pt player who can change the game from going and scoring the goal that's needed ok, I get you're not the physical player. But if you're not, you've got to find ways to step up when the team needs it....too many nights I don't see Bo step up and set an example... He seems like he's happy just being part of the pack...However the role of a captain is to be the alpha in the pack...Again, all we have to do is look at players like Smyl, Linden, Iginla, etc... Some people say Miller's anger isn't what the team needs. You know what, yes it is...You know why? Because that anger tells the team, I am all in, why aren't you. This means something to me, and if it doesn't to you, get off the ice. When you see a leader who is never emotional, doesn't stand up for teammates, isn't the first into the fire, you see apathy. Its very easy to also become apathetic. Toronto got rid of Kadri because he made alot of stupid mistakes, but you know why he did? Because he has a burning desire to win, because he hates losing, and everyone in Toronto knows why that team isn't winning. They have oodles of talent, without the burning desire to do what it takes to win. As you said, its not a slight on Bo, its not saying he's not a talented player, but he's not the Captain this team needs. Edited June 11, 2022 by NucknAsia 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted June 11, 2022 Share Posted June 11, 2022 2 minutes ago, NucknAsia said: showing a video of Horvat getting into one fight doesn't really negate the poster's point - its a straw man response Darnell Nurse is a big Mo Fo; highly challenging opponent in a fight. Shows Horvat does not back down is all. What dyu know about straw? In any case; I disagree with any assertion a captain needs to be an abrasive, loud or intimidating. You need guys who train harder, play harder, compete harder. Communicate, are positive, disciplined, upbeat. Non judgemental! Backcheck, fore check, block shots, take defensive assignments, skate their ass off. Loyal! Does not say we want a captain like Brad Marchand. Nobody said Marchand by the way. We hear constantly insinuating his type of behaviour is leadership? I suppose he won Stanley Cups! So did Wayne Gretzky, who might have been Lady Byng's 1st wed cousin. Kissed her 5 times. Everybody said he was a darling too... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentSam Posted June 11, 2022 Share Posted June 11, 2022 10 hours ago, Crabcakes said: Boeser isn't a power forward. Horvat and Miller are better at that. This culture change, they're working at that. We can't know the specifics I see Horvat and Miller as Grit .. I think the power forward position is a Winger who usually gets the opportunity to break out and away from the transition to offence , fed by his Center or a damn good D man. Speed and size are a combined asset , not one superior to the other. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NucknAsia Posted June 11, 2022 Author Share Posted June 11, 2022 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said: Darnell Nurse is a big Mo Fo; highly challenging opponent in a fight. Shows Horvat does not back down is all. What dyu know about straw? In any case; I disagree with any assertion a captain needs to be an abrasive, loud or intimidating. You need guys who train harder, play harder, compete harder. Communicate, are positive, disciplined, upbeat. Non judgemental! Backcheck, fore check, block shots, take defensive assignments, skate their ass off. Loyal! Does not say we want a captain like Brad Marchand. Nobody said Marchand by the way. We hear constantly insinuating his type of behaviour is leadership? I suppose he won Stanley Cups! So did Wayne Gretzky, who might have been Lady Byng's 1st wed cousin. Kissed her 5 times. Everybody said he was a darling too... Bo Horvat is not Wayne Gretzky and mentioning the two in the same sentence is pure nonsense so lets start there. Go read my last 2 posts. It explains the issues very well. Its all well and good to have a quiet captain, non physical IF, you can change the game offensively. 100 pt players like Sakic, Yzerman, Gretz were great captains, because THEY COULD ALTER THE GAME. Bo is not a 100 pt player. He can't go out and get his team going by scoring or setting up 2 goals in 3 shifts. He is a 50-60 pt player who plays like Taylor Pyatt. Your teammates notice that. If you're going to lead a team that is emotionless you have to find a way to bring emotion to them, sports need emotion. Suggesting this is an issue over fighting is ridiculously reductive and not the issue. Edited June 11, 2022 by NucknAsia 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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