[Discussion] Do You Have the Stomach For a Rebuild?

[ABNuck]

We missed our chance this past summer. Boeser was an RFA and could have been moved to recover assets...not now. JT Miller had 1 year left on a terrific deal, could have retrieved the maximum assets possible (maybe more at the TDL but...alas)...not now, DEFINITELY not now. Myers could have gotten us the most return this past summer as well...it wouldn't have been much, but it's all down hill on the return scale now. Nothing could be done about OEL so we own that.

 

Keep Horvat, Hughes, Pettersson, Demko, Podz & Kuz, rotate other pieces into the lineup over the next couple of years around them (don't care about who comes and goes or what our record would have been...couldn't be any worse than now anyways) and develop the assets we got in return for Boeser and Miller.

 

But, that ship sailed and we can't even see the masts anymore. It is what it is now. Any rebuild now will not net the same return without losing some of our current/future assets so not worth it.

 

Bottom line...would love to do a rebuild (on the fly would be most preferable), but the best opportunity to do so was 3 months ago.

[-AJ-]

2 minutes ago, Bure_Pavel said:

They also got lucky with players wanting to play there due to being one of the largest american markets. ie Adam Fox and Trouba (two top pairing RD's) 

Fair point.

[fanfor42]

3 minutes ago, Bure_Pavel said:

Hughes and Petey are 23, they would not need to be traded for a rebuild.

Partner you are missing the point.  The point is having a poll about whether you support a rebuild is not useful unless you define what a rebuild entails.

 

 

 

 

[Eddie]

Honestly, no i don't.  Probably makes me a shit fan i know, but man these last 10 years have been trying - all the high profile busts, and expensive free agents that 'retired' on the ice. The terrible lottery luck - every bright ray of optimism of a player disappointing year upon year. Missing the playoffs every dam year. Getting pushed around like a pack of weaklings.  I dunno - i have very little positive memories of this team beyond the moment the Sedins stepped off the ice. 

 

All my hopes were this core could be salvaged and i partially believe it still can - but i can honestly and without shame say, if we tank sell the entire lot and tank again I'm not investing time and money to continue to watch the team until the unlikely day comes they start to become competitve again... 

 

Who am i kidding, i probably will - but i'll hate myself for it. 

[JM_]

1 minute ago, ABNuck said:

We missed our chance this past summer. Boeser was an RFA and could have been moved to recover assets...not now. JT Miller had 1 year left on a terrific deal, could have retrieved the maximum assets possible (maybe more at the TDL but...alas)...not now, DEFINITELY not now. Myers could have gotten us the most return this past summer as well...it wouldn't have been much, but it's all down hill on the return scale now. Nothing could be done about OEL so we own that.

 

Keep Horvat, Hughes, Pettersson, Demko, Podz & Kuz, rotate other pieces into the lineup over the next couple of years around them (don't care about who comes and goes or what our record would have been...couldn't be any worse than now anyways) and develop the assets we got in return for Boeser and Miller.

 

But, that ship sailed and we can't even see the masts anymore. It is what it is now. Any rebuild now will not net the same return without losing some of our current/future assets so not worth it.

 

Bottom line...would love to do a rebuild (on the fly would be most preferable), but the best opportunity to do so was 3 months ago.

you never really can miss an opportunity for a tear down tho. The best talent will still come from your own 1sts, and everything else is secondary to that. 

[ABNuck]

2 minutes ago, JM_ said:

you never really can miss an opportunity for a tear down tho. The best talent will still come from your own 1sts, and everything else is secondary to that. 

Yup, that's the long haul rebuild. To do a quicker 2-3 year turn-around, you get the max return from assets that don't figure into the longer term plan...double your future assets (your own as you stated, plus the returns). IMHO a much better way to rebuild...the long haul is painful.

[Warhippy]

31 minutes ago, -Vintage Canuck- said:

100%.

 

I would do something similar to what the Rangers did:

 

I like this a lot.  I also might add as others did, two lotto wins (one might be a whiff) and having some amazing free agents fall in their lap in Panarin and Fox helps.

 

This is a team that made hard decisions fast, took their youth and ran with it.

[JM_]

1 minute ago, ABNuck said:

Yup, that's the long haul rebuild. To do a quicker 2-3 year turn-around, you get the max return from assets that don't figure into the longer term plan...double your future assets (your own as you stated, plus the returns). IMHO a much better way to rebuild...the long haul is painful.

thats why I think you retain on Boeser, Mikheyev and Myers - look at a <3 year turn around where you can absorb that and get a max return for all 3. 

[Kelly Green]

The players they need now can be traded for , 3C, 3D, and a winger who can play top 9 and fight (win fights easily) will be expensive but possible imo.

A top pair RHD will be more expensive but its still doable.

 

The problem right now is the guy who signs a long term contract for big money the shows up and coasts, that is inexcusable.

[Warhippy]

6 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Honestly, no i don't.  Probably makes me a shit fan i know, but man these last 10 years have been trying - all the high profile busts, and expensive free agents that 'retired' on the ice. The terrible lottery luck - every bright ray of optimism of a player disappointing year upon year. Missing the playoffs every dam year. Getting pushed around like a pack of weaklings.  I dunno - i have very little positive memories of this team beyond the moment the Sedins stepped off the ice. 

 

All my hopes were this core could be salvaged and i partially believe it still can - but i can honestly and without shame say, if we tank sell the entire lot and tank again I'm not investing time and money to continue to watch the team until the unlikely day comes they start to become competitve again... 

 

Who am i kidding, i probably will - but i'll hate myself for it. 

Since the 70s the Canucks have done the exact same thing if you look at it

 

Suck, acquire some assets.  Have a single break out year or so; trade picks/assets to extend that window.  Fail; retool rinse and repeat.

 

The single longest unbroken streak by and large came about from the 2001 WCE through 2012 Sedin eras.  Barring of course that post Bertuzzi incident year; it was done on the backs of the single successful two development years this organization has had in its existence from 2004-2006 with Bieksa, Burrows, Kesler, Hansen, edler etc drafted/signed and developed that kicked that window open.

 

The issue here now is that we have the key pieces, but we have zero assets to extend them.  My thought is essentially anyone under the age of 25 is kept and Horvat and everyone else is gone.  Like jettison it.  Hold a team meeting and say that's it, it's time.  Commit to a 3 year rebuild where we drafted well; we have Petey, Demko, Hughes sign players every off season that we can flip at the TDL for additional 2nd/3rd round picks and rinse repeat over a 3 year term.  develop the hell out of what we have and when Petey/Hughes are hitting their peaks at 26-28 our youth is kicking that window open again for us.

 

And FFS draft some RHD!!!!  Drafting less than 10 total RHD since 2004 is absolutely gd abysmal

[King Heffy]

Full rebuild, but keep some veteran leadership to avoid a situation like Edmonton where your best players don't turn into men and become locker room cancers instead.

[Trebreh]

Yes! especially this years draft with Bedard, Fantili, Mitchikov etc. 

 

Miller to Arizona straight up for Chyrun would be nice... just trade him before that new contract kicks in. 

 

guys like Garland, Pearson, Bo, Brock and Myers could fetch us something good at the TD.

 

new core is Podkolzin, Pettersson, Demko, Hughes and maybe Kuzmenko. 

 

 

 

 

 

[canuck73_3]

Just now, King Heffy said:

Full rebuild, but keep some veteran leadership to avoid a situation like Edmonton where your best players don't turn into men and become locker room cancers instead.

You keep saying that but you don’t make the Conference Finals with a team full of cancers. 

[Provost]

I don’t know if I will keep following that much if they DON’T rebuild.  I already have started PVRing games and fast forwarding through parts.

 

The big picture is bleak… as it was two years ago.  All of our efficient contracts were up for extension meaning all the money coming off the books was already eaten up by raised we would owe.  That is the same for the next few years, there is no big help coming in free agency and no high end prospects coming In the pipeline.  Due to cap and contracts signed…this is the roster we will have for the next 3-4 years give or take a couple players.  If it isn’t a winner, then why keep trotting it out.

 

To me the rebuild includes Petterson, Hughes, and Demko as they are what gives you the return you need to kickstart it.  They are also not going to be under club control indefinitely.

 

If we had have made moves last trade deadline we could have been looking at 2 years to being competitive with a few extra high end prospects in the system to sustain a window with a steady stream of ELCs.  Now we are looking at 4 years I think.  A couple years of tearing down and a couple years of building up.

 

There are a lot of decent veterans looking for work nowadays that we can keep finding cheap one year UFAs that we can flip for more picks each deadline so that the prospects don’t have to be thrown to the wolves.  Build a champion Abbotsford team of guys that learn to win together… then they graduate as a group over 2-3 years.  A lot of the team building for our last good core came from the Moose.

 

Look at Montreal, they aren’t going to be winning a Cup this year but the fans are falling in love with the players as they see it as being on the way up.

[Sell.the.team]

think we have some good pieces that we should try to retain.  

 

If we could get good return for Garland, Miller, Bo, Myers...etc I would be fine exploring trades.  Obviously what would be considered a 'good return' varies somewhat drastically depending on which player we are talking about.

 

If we can dump Boeser and Pearson for spare parts then we may want to consider that.

 

May also be worth trying to dump OEL contact.  Even if we need to move some of the draft capital coming back for the above-noted players. 

 

Keep Quinn, Petto, Kuz, Podz, Hoglander... get a few decent draft picks over the next few years, maybe tank this season for a crack at Bedard (or other top pick).

 

No idea what to do with Thatcher.  Don't have a good sense of how much of our struggles this year are on him.  Same goes for Mikheyev.

 

Try to utilize some cap space going forwards and hopefully draft smart and make the most of the picks...

 

Don't imagine Bruce will survive if this season is a write off.  Get rid of all the assistant coaches for sure.

 

Not sure if any of our "prospects" have any hope of being impact players.  Would be nice if Rathbone pans out.

[Tinky-Winky]

if we can get bedard, id for sure stomach a rebuild

[King Heffy]

1 minute ago, canuck73_3 said:

You keep saying that but you don’t make the Conference Finals with a team full of cancers. 

You do when you play against a rebuilding team in the first round and a women's team in the 2nd.  Bottom line is that McDiver probably could have been taught to cut out the flopping and tantrums if they'd had any respectable vets to set him straight.  It's too late now that he's been given the C despite his refusal to act like a man on or off the ice.  Draisitl wasn't spearing guys in the balls until the Oilers brought in Lucic to teach him how to play like a gutless coward.

 

Leadership matters in a rebuild.

[Kevin Biestra]

Just now, Warhippy said:

Since the 70s the Canucks have done the exact same thing if you look at it

 

Suck, acquire some assets.  Have a single break out year or so; trade picks/assets to extend that window.  Fail; retool rinse and repeat.

 

The single longest unbroken streak by and large came about from the 2001 WCE through 2012 Sedin eras.  Barring of course that post Bertuzzi incident year; it was done on the backs of the single successful two development years this organization has had in its existence from 2004-2006 with Bieksa, Burrows, Kesler, Hansen, edler etc drafted/signed and developed that kicked that window open.

 

The issue here now is that we have the key pieces, but we have zero assets to extend them.  My thought is essentially anyone under the age of 25 is kept and Horvat and everyone else is gone.  Like jettison it.  Hold a team meeting and say that's it, it's time.  Commit to a 3 year rebuild where we drafted well; we have Petey, Demko, Hughes sign players every off season that we can flip at the TDL for additional 2nd/3rd round picks and rinse repeat over a 3 year term.  develop the hell out of what we have and when Petey/Hughes are hitting their peaks at 26-28 our youth is kicking that window open again for us.

 

And FFS draft some RHD!!!!  Drafting less than 10 total RHD since 2004 is absolutely gd abysmal

 

This is partly true...but not really the case with respect to the before and after the 1982 and 1994 runs.

 

Immediately after the 1982 run, the Canucks traded established talent for up and comers or otherwise brought new young blood into the lineup like Tony Tanti, Patrik Sundstrom, Petri Skriko, Doug Lidster etc.  They nurtured young talent and rookies at the time like Garth Butcher.  They lost good veterans like Curt Fraser, Kevin McCarthy, Ivan Hlinka and Ivan Boldirev.  It was actually before the 1982 run where, as a not very good team, they somewhat inexplicably traded fantastic prospects like Rick Vaive, Brent Ashton and Bill Derlago...to bring in veterans like Tiger Williams who would be finishing pieces on a Cup contender.  It just managed to work out well.

 

As to 1994.  It was 1989 that was the "one breakout year" with Linden up for the Calder and McLean the Vezina and the Canucks going to Game 7 OT against the eventual Cup champs.  The Canucks weren't very good in 1990 and 1991 but won the division with a bullet in 1992 and 1993 before the Cup run in 1994.  They were a powerhouse from 1991-92 through 1993-94.  And it was after 1989 and before 1992 where they traded or lost all of their veteran talent...and I mean almost all of it:  Stan Smyl, Harold Snepsts, Tony Tanti, Barry Pederson, Petri Skriko, Mel Bridgman, Steve Weeks, Rich Sutter, Paul Reinhart, Dan Quinn, Garth Butcher, etc.

 

As for following the 1994 run itself...weird stuff as they let playoff hero Ronning go when he would have played for a bargain, then chased after Messier who then chased all of the 1994 veterans out the door (Linden, McLean, Babych, Gino, etc.).  Next thing you know it was an accidental rebuild.

 

 

Edited October 25, 2022 by Kevin Biestra

[chon derry]

Stomach a rebuild? I’ve been doing that for 53 years my stomachs ready to blow. Play out the season. That was the plan  see where  it lands.  See if the problem in the rooms festers and gets worse and where it’s eminating from or goes away with some wins. None of us know for sure.  PLAY SOME HOCKEY WITH SOME EMOTION.  If there’s some players pissed off    Put it on the ice.   

[RolexSub]

Screw the rebuild process...weren't we in a rebuild process in the last 5-6yrs!!! I can't stand another 3-4year not making the playoffs..and that would be a total joke!!! 

 

I think we are missing a few pieces of the puzzle to be a good team and that will come from a combination of a few big trades and a few good young stars coming up from our draft picks. I would trade Myers, Poolman, Bo, Pearson, and Boeser for return on good assets.