[PGT] Vegas Golden Knights at Vancouver Canucks | Nov. 21, 2022

[Strawbone]

10 minutes ago, Outsiders said:

My god if I see another game of Stillman-Myers. Holy shit

That roster choice is infuriating and just about single handedly made me not bother watching the game last night. 

[Boudrias]

1 hour ago, SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME said:

I don’t really fault Demko on the Petro game winner. That scoring chance doesn’t happen without some atrocious in-zone defence and net front coverage. But it’s also probably true that last year’s Demko somehow manages to stop that puck, not because it’s an expected save (most ‘tenders would get beat there), but because last year’s Demko was elite, and could be counted on for those kinds of heroic, critical saves.

 

The team’s problems are much bigger than Demko and evident last game (and throughout this season). In-zone defence was a major issue. There were a lot of instances when the team failed to properly box out. Net front coverage was really weak at times. Overall defensive structure was poor on many of the goals. And individual defensive efforts and focus/reads were lacking at critical moments from some of the skaters.

 

That all said, it’s also true that Demko’s mishandling of the puck led to two critical sequences that resulted in defensive breakdowns and goals against. And he spilled pucks that resulted in second chances (and one of the goals against). He also saw probably three pucks go through him for goals where, when he’s playing at his best, he’d have had those holes plugged. I think when Demmer is really on his game (and dialled in for a full 60 minutes), he keeps the goals against to three or less against Vegas, even given the breakdowns and poor defence in front of him.

 

(Vegas had 3.83 expected goals last night, by the fancy stats, so it’s not unreasonable that an elite goalie holds the Knights to three goals, even given the overall volume and quality of chances given up by the team in front of him.)

 

4 goals scored against Vegas last night should have been enough to win. When he’s at his best, Demko maintains his focus and composure, locks down that third period, holds the lead, and delivers the W.

 

On the other hand, it’s also true that no contender-level team (or even one properly built to compete in this league) should need to play rope-a-dope against top opponents like Vegas, requiring elite goaltending to keep them in the game and surgical-level counter punching on limited scoring opportunities to produce enough goals to even have a chance to win. That’s not a sustainable model for success. No team should really expect to eek out victories, with any consistency, when they’re out-chanced 41-22 and the expected goals are 3.83 to 1.67.

 

Last year’s Demko (plus the “Bruce there it is” good vibes) created the illusion that this team was close to competing with the big boys of this league. This year’s version is showing just how far away this team really is. It’s true that we’d have several more wins this season (including last night) if Demko was playing at his best. But while we’d all be having a whole lot more fun this year, and probably enjoying better overall mental health (at least speaking personally ), if we were getting those extra W’s, winning on the back of elite goaltending only masks the underlying issues with how this team is currently built.
 

Elite-level Demko, on his own, probably gets this current roster 100+ points and a solid playoff berth. But barring an absolute god-level goaltending performance, and one somehow sustained over four rounds of best-of-sevens, that’s not a model that has much chance, if any, of ever delivering the Vancouver Canucks those all-important 16 wins in a single postseason.

If this team really has designs on becoming a contender, they need to fix a lot of issues that are outside of the net. And, if those issues were fixed, it would make it so much easier for Demko to maintain top level goaltending, consistently, night-after-night, and season-to-season.

I think Canuck fans should watch some games away from the Canucks to get a btter idea of how good the top teams are. Canucks aren't close. 

[Gawdzukes]

41 minutes ago, jyu said:

Jason Robertson was a second rounder. Adam Fox was a high third rounder.

 

Unless you are a contender, a top 8 team in the league, you should keep your 1st and 2nd almost every year let alone trade it for a marginal player like Stillman.

 

It takes one Jason Robertson or Adam Fox to propel a playoff team to becoming a contender. IMO, the only way to build a contender aside from relying on insane fortune (like drafting MAF-Malkin-Crosby-Letang) is that you form a core set of players and let them develop together and establish team culture by infusing veterans. And then you bide your time until you get a chance to draft or sign key players that can propel you upwards. Obviously, you need to make deals to improve your team when you can but you can't be trading as many picks as we have.

 

We are no where near being a contender, yet we've had one 1st (Lekkerimaki) and one 2nd (Klimovich) round draft picks in the past 3 years. 

 

JR's interview where he pinned the weak defence on Boudreau and not on the personnel was the sign of things to come. He assessment that our defence is good enough just goes to show how little he cares or knows about our team.

 

 

Very nicely stated jyu!

 

Spot on. Like you said you only need one of these prospects to pan out to make a huge impact on your team. Imagine if we had a guy like Cernak, or Bratt. That alone can allow you move forward in other areas as well.

 

The other teams get all the good young players because we're giving away our precious few top picks.

[-Vintage Canuck-]

 

[Timråfan]

18 minutes ago, JayDangles said:

Why?

He said he wanted to change the culture - Nope

He said he wanted to improve the defense - Nope

He said we wanted to get younger - Miller, Mikhayev - Nope

He said we weren't going to trade draft picks - Dickinson & 2nd for Stillman - Nope

Hired 4 new people for the front office. Made a big splash about diversity hire. Get lots of attention - Yep

 

If JR was actively making efforts to improve and the team was still struggling, then I would agree with your comment, you cant blame a guy for trying and all that. But him and every other management idiot are happily collecting their paychecks and haven't done a damn thing they said they were going to do.

So you won’t give the new management one year before judgement!?

 

Can you tell me wich teams that came from where the Canucks were and turned it completely around before new management got to a year?

[-Vintage Canuck-]

 

[Coconuts]

5 minutes ago, Timråfan said:

So you won’t give the new management one year before judgement!?

 

Can you tell me wich teams that came from where the Canucks were and turned it completely around before new management got to a year?

That was never going to happen. Management is judged on the decisions they make, or sometimes don't make, by fans and media in almost every NHL hockey market.

 

Just the way she goes. Folks may be willing to be patient and see what they can do, it's still been less than a year, but folks will absolutely judge and gauge progress or a lack of progress. Sports are results driven at the end of the day. 

Edited November 22, 2022 by Coconuts

[Devron]

7 minutes ago, Timråfan said:

So you won’t give the new management one year before judgement!?

 

Can you tell me wich teams that came from where the Canucks were and turned it completely around before new management got to a year?

Re-signing Miller was enough judgement for me 

[JayDangles]

3 minutes ago, Timråfan said:

So you won’t give the new management one year before judgement!?

 

Can you tell me wich teams that came from where the Canucks were and turned it completely around before new management got to a year?

Of course no team has "turned it completely around" in 1 year. I'm not asking or expecting for the canucks to be a contender after 1 year... but the fact that they have done nothing to address the key points they identified, yeah I think it's ok to judge them on that. When someone doesnt do the exact thing they said they were going to do I don't see the rationale for cutting them slack.

 

Calgary this off season went from being a playoff team.. to a bottom dwelling team, back to a playoff team in a matter of 72 hours. With the right people, anything can be done.

Same situation? No, but defending management based on a "wait and see" approach makes way less sense than what I'm saying.

 

[canuck73_3]

30 minutes ago, JayDangles said:

Why?

He said he wanted to change the culture - Nope

He said he wanted to improve the defense - Nope

He said we wanted to get younger - Miller, Mikhayev - Nope

He said we weren't going to trade draft picks - Dickinson & 2nd for Stillman - Nope

Hired 4 new people for the front office. Made a big splash about diversity hire. Get lots of attention - Yep

 

If JR was actively making efforts to improve and the team was still struggling, then I would agree with your comment, you cant blame a guy for trying and all that. But him and every other management idiot are happily collecting their paychecks and haven't done a damn thing they said they were going to do.

Did you actually expect this to be fixed in less than a year? 
 

LMAO 

[Hairy Kneel]

54 minutes ago, Jaimito said:

Need to be in the locker room so he can throw some f bombs. 

That's what I don't understand. Burroughs really cares,being from here, and his play reflects that tenacious attitude.  smh

[Hairy Kneel]

14 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

I think Canuck fans should watch some games away from the Canucks to get a btter idea of how good the top teams are. Canucks aren't close. 

Pick a game, let's break it down.

[Mustard Tiger]

33 minutes ago, JayDangles said:

Why?

He said he wanted to change the culture - Nope

He said he wanted to improve the defense - Nope

He said we wanted to get younger - Miller, Mikhayev - Nope

He said we weren't going to trade draft picks - Dickinson & 2nd for Stillman - Nope

Hired 4 new people for the front office. Made a big splash about diversity hire. Get lots of attention - Yep

 

If JR was actively making efforts to improve and the team was still struggling, then I would agree with your comment, you cant blame a guy for trying and all that. But him and every other management idiot are happily collecting their paychecks and haven't done a damn thing they said they were going to do.

JR very clearly said numerous times 2/3 years. You convinced yourself otherwise 

[EdgarM]

2 minutes ago, Hairy Kneel said:

That's what I don't understand. Burroughs really cares,being from here, and his play reflects that tenacious attitude.  smh

Not only should he be playing but he would be one that could be leaned on in the third period. Him and Schenn. Its a no brainer.

[J.I.A.H.N]

5 minutes ago, NUCKER67 said:

1st overall picks will do that. Looks like NJ could have another Cup soon. 

This actually is a good lead in to how a rebuild is done and how to spend Cap.........................

 

1. New Jersey............Trade off assets, keep character, Tank, and fill in holes with appropriate UFA's, while cap is low and rebuild has filled the coffers with young inexpensive talent.

 

Example: New Jersey signs Doug Hamilton 28 year old 6'6" 229 lb top 10 RHD to a 7 year X $9 million contract. He is a none replaceable top RHD Go big or Go Home!

 

2. Vancouver..............Buy UFA's, trade picks, and don't tank long enough to fill coffers........................Incomplete!

 

Example: Vancouver sign Tyler Myers 33 this year 28 year 6'8" 228 lb top 50 RHD to a 5 year X $6 million contract. He is replaceable and never played above a top 4 defenseman

 

 

Blame should be spread around between impatient ownership, say anything GM's and vocal Fan's that do not believe in Tanking (we will call them "Deniers!")

 

"IF" Aqualini actually felt that a Tank would be supported, and actually demanded to complete a rebuild, he may do it, but there is way too much fan pressure here, by fans who actually believe that teams do not tank! 

 

I can't tell you how many times I started threads that spoke of Tanking and a proper rebuild, but many of you, including some very established, well supported, and high ranking Canuck.com posters, threw water on any thought of it, and in many cases, protected old players, because of loyalty. (It still happens!) We lost basically a whole Stanley cup finalist roster for absolutely no return. Absolutely foolish!

 

Yes, Jim Benning signed them, and would not trade them, but Aqualini said ok, and the fans demanded it, which is why Aqualini said ok.....................

 

Again! At the risk of repeating myself.....it is the same old story!

 

Blame should be spread around between impatient ownership, say anything GM's and vocal Fan's that do not believe in Tanking (we will call them "Deniers!")

 

Honestly..............FO with all the crying, and be more vocal of what you want! Look at hockey history, look at rebuilds, and figure it out!

 

Yes, I know there was a few, calling for trades and rebuilds, but not enough!

 

 

[aqua59]

20 minutes ago, Timråfan said:

So you won’t give the new management one year before judgement!?

 

Can you tell me wich teams that came from where the Canucks were and turned it completely around before new management got to a year?

First off I agree fully with your statement. We also have to remember there is little true business knowledge here. 

 

 

[Gawdzukes]

59 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

How  do you fix it? Keep the opposition out of the Danger Zone period. Stop watching the puck and take the body, especially if they get close to your goalie. We would rather shake their hand or pat them on the back instead of going to war with them, sad.

It must be nice getting paid millions to watch NHL games. It's like the Canucks all have better than front row seats to the most exciting game on earth. I'm jealous. 

[stawns]

21 minutes ago, Timråfan said:

So you won’t give the new management one year before judgement!?

 

Can you tell me wich teams that came from where the Canucks were and turned it completely around before new management got to a year?

it's been a full year and they've had several windows where hockey decisions needed to be made........they've had the better part of a season, a tdl, a draft, a FA window, an off season and now a quarter of a new season.......more than enough to judge them on.

 

While I do think they've made som monumental mistakes, I did like some of their signings and I think the Bear trade was a good one too.  However, while what they "have" done has been pretty good, what they "haven't" done is far, far more impactful and they need to get their ship in order and on some kind of track before it's to late.  Most notably, a decision  has to be made between Horvat and Miller.  That will determine the course going forward

[EdgarM]

3 minutes ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

This actually is a good lead in to how a rebuild is done and how to spend Cap.........................

 

1. New Jersey............Trade off assets, keep character, Tank, and fill in holes with appropriate UFA's, while cap is low and rebuild has filled the coffers with young inexpensive talent.

 

Example: New Jersey signs Doug Hamilton 28 year old 6'6" 229 lb top 10 RHD to a 7 year X $9 million contract. He is a none replaceable top RHD Go big or Go Home!

 

2. Vancouver..............Buy UFA's, trade picks, and don't tank long enough to fill coffers........................Incomplete!

 

Example: Vancouver sign Tyler Myers 33 this year 28 year 6'8" 228 lb top 50 RHD to a 5 year X $6 million contract. He is replaceable and never played above a top 4 defenseman

 

 

Blame should be spread around between impatient ownership, say anything GM's and vocal Fan's that do not believe in Tanking (we will call them "Deniers!")

 

"IF" Aqualini actually felt that a Tank would be supported, and actually demanded to complete a rebuild, he may do it, but there is way too much fan pressure here, by fans who actually believe that teams do not tank! 

 

I can't tell you how many times I started threads that spoke of Tanking and a proper rebuild, but many of you, including some very established, well supported, and high ranking Canuck.com posters, threw water on any thought of it, and in many cases, protected old players, because of loyalty. (It still happens!) We lost basically a whole Stanley cup finalist roster for absolutely no return. Absolutely foolish!

 

Yes, Jim Benning signed them, and would not trade them, but Aqualini said ok, and the fans demanded it, which is why Aqualini said ok.....................

 

Again! At the risk of repeating myself.....it is the same old story!

 

Blame should be spread around between impatient ownership, say anything GM's and vocal Fan's that do not believe in Tanking (we will call them "Deniers!")

 

Honestly..............FO with all the crying, and be more vocal of what you want! Look at hockey history, look at rebuilds, and figure it out!

 

Yes, I know there was a few, calling for trades and rebuilds, but not enough!

 

 

I have to admit,  i was part of the keep some of our talent group but you mentioned a key part that is critical in building a championship team, " keep character ".

We have an abundance of offensive players who are not willing to pay the price in the defense department. No character.  

After watching their performance the last couple of years its obvious that this talent does not have enough character.  

I am ok with a tear down and bring in more character.  This team is not much fun to watch anyway. 

[Bobby James]

Please trade Miller. He's producing well and should get us a 1st and an okay prospect (maybe need to take back a 1-2 year cap dump to make it work which is fine). If Horvat doesn't wanna resign or a fair price can't be reached trade him as well (dude is scoring great this year).

 

This is forward group should be lead by Petey. He is playing excellent on a rough team, I imagine he will only improve with a better D group and a more cohesive team. 

 

Meyers should be moveable, but I don't think they need to rush to dump him this year if there are no takers. Next season should be even easier with only 1 year left and we can retain a bit if required. 

 

Stop playing Stillman over Rathbone every night. The kids gotta play even when it isn't always going great. Rath, Hoglander and Podz should be playing as much as possible this season.