The Canucks would be better off moving Elias Pettersson than Bo Horvat

[King Heffy]

[jyu]

I'd do the deal with the Rangers that you proposed if it's Horvat and not Pettersson.

 

Schneider is not going to see the ice time needed to develop into a premier top 4D with Fox and Trouba ahead of him.

 

Bo is an immediate upgrade on Chytil for the Rangers.

[eeeeergh]

2 minutes ago, Ruthervin said:

Schneider + Chytyl + draft pick(s) was my idea for NYR.  Petey for Schneider one for one is NOT something I’d do

Your proposal says Petey and Schenn for Schneider and Chytil

 

idk I’m speechless

 

in what world is Schneider an “elite top pairing rd?” He might be one day but I watch rangers games and he is absolutely not that right now 

 

Chytil is a perfectly fine 3C 

 

Youre gonna give up a superstar and a top-4 rd who’s on a dirt cheap contract (so cheap he may get us a 1st round pick at the deadline) 

 

for NYRs young bottom pair rd + a 3c

 

boy I don’t know 

[Ruthervin]

Just now, jyu said:

What is your justification that this team is solid up front even without Pettersson? The last time I checked natural stat trick, only 3 players had GF/60 well above GA/60, Pettersson, Mik, and Kuz. Who drives that line?

 

Take Pettersson out and we are weak up front because Miller and Horvat would have to be spread out and Horvat would end up taking all the match ups. And we all know from 8 seasons of watching Horvat that while is not a defensive liability, he is unable to push the play in the right direction against the elite players on a consistent basis.

 

The reason why Bo and Miller can focus on offence is because of Pettersson. 

 

Besides, Schneider is not even playing big minutes right now. So big fat no to that deal.

 

I agree that Dobson is what we need. And I do think he could develop into the player of Pettersson's caliber so maybe I'd consider that deal.

 

But we are creating a big hole: trading #1C for a #1RD. I don't think it moves us forward.

 

This is an excellent post and I thank you for your response.  Good points about spreading BoHo and Miller (which is what it would come to), along with BoHo’s inability to drive offense in a match up role (unlike Petey).   I was also unaware of the GF/60.

My hope is that if we did move Pettersson and Schenn (to NYI) for something around Pageau and Dobson, then you could have someone like Pageau take on the tough match ups while Horvat continued to play in his current role.

[Ruthervin]

1 minute ago, eeeeergh said:

Your proposal says Petey and Schenn for Schneider and Chytil

 

idk I’m speechless

 

in what world is Schneider an “elite top pairing rd?” He might be one day but I watch rangers games and he is absolutely not that right now 

 

Chytil is a perfectly fine 3C 

 

Youre gonna give up a superstar and a top-4 rd who’s on a dirt cheap contract (so cheap he may get us a 1st round pick at the deadline) 

 

for NYRs young bottom pair rd + a 3c

 

boy I don’t know 

You are correct and I do want to retract that idea (my Schneider proposal).  I’d do Dobson (or Pulock) and Pageau however for that same package.

[Ruthervin]

2 minutes ago, jyu said:

I'd do the deal with the Rangers that you proposed if it's Horvat and not Pettersson.

 

Schneider is not going to see the ice time needed to develop into a premier top 4D with Fox and Trouba ahead of him.

 

Bo is an immediate upgrade on Chytil for the Rangers.

I agree with this.

[StanleyCupOneDay]

[Warhippy]

The Canucks would be better off moving Elias Pettersson THEN Bo Horvat

 

FTFY

 

 

[BigTramFan]

We don't need to trade Petey.

 

If we can make your trade #4 (Boeser for a 3C), trade #5 (Garland for a pick) and trade #7 (Myers moved in the off season with only $1m of salary owing for his new club to pay him), then we have enough cap space to resign Horvat and Kuz and enough for a decent top 4 Dman (such as Zub).

[wai_lai416]

lol first hand look at life without EP tonight.. um how about no

[aGENT]

 

 

[PetterssonOrPeterson]

3 hours ago, -AJ- said:

Petey has taken his overall game to another level this year and is still quite young. He might become a Selke-level player while also scoring 90-100 points. Trading him is not the solution to our defensive woes.

100% agree. 

I'd say that players like Petey are harder to find than any sort of skill guy. 

 

Like Datsyuk, both in a similar mold imo.

[AK_19]

Agreed that Pettersson isn't untouchable but jeez for Schneider? The guy hasn't shown to better than Schenn as a RHD. I could see something like Pete + Schenn for Dobson + JG Pageau + 1st. Even if Dobson isn't a better player in a vacuum over Pete, he plays a more vital position to our team and should make a more significant impact. If we're going to retool this makes more sense. 

 

Kuzmenko Miller Mikheyev

Garland Horvat Boeser

Pearson Pageau Studnicka

Aman Lazar Joshua

Pod/Hog

 

Hughes Dobson

OEL Bear

Stillman Myers

[RolexSub]

I didn't have time reading what OP wrote but did you send your proposal along with your Christmas Card to Alvin and Co. 

[Westcoasting]

Did you see Bo tonight?? Trade the bastard!!

[Ruthervin]

3 hours ago, RolexSub said:

I didn't have time reading what OP wrote but did you send your proposal along with your Christmas Card to Alvin and Co. 

Yes….yes I did.  ;-)

[Sativika]

I'm a big Petey fan, but also partial to Boho as well. There's no doubt in any which way that trading Petey wouldn't net us a huge haul of top prospects, #1 draft picks and decent roster players right off the get go. If that were the case, then BoHo becomes a veteran presence for the team as well as a leader. Now, that being said.....

 

It's my belief that that the overall CDC majority would like to see BoHo traded. Sure, he'll get us a good haul, but not as eye opening as what Petey would net. In Boho we'd lose a league  top face-off guy. I mean we all know how important  that is to a team with supposedly offensive talent. Winning a FO could mean a win or a lost. Of course Boho's lighting it up right now. I think his offensive side has always been there. Just never really had the line mates to allow him to shine in the past.

 

Sure. Trade Petey. While we're at it trade Huggy and Demmer as well. As mentioned previously, it means in doing so, we'd be in a re-build mode. Come on Aquaman. Let it happen.............or not?!?!?!?!?

Go Canucks Go!

[ToTellTheTruth]

At some point both will have to happen, there is just not enough time to change enough wrong with this team.

The team cannot continue to be the retirement home for the league is fans ever want to see a cup final again.

I would like to see more than one push every 12 to 16 years, but it seems that is the way Canadian teams are being built one shot every generation, just so all the teams get a chance.

 

Both will be traded hopefully at some time

 

Pettersson will get a huge amount in return

What if, ya if, a Pettersson trade returned a Stutzle and a Fox and replacement Horvat? Even if that return took 2 years? Two good for the next possibly 12+ years versus one good for another 8 years with 4 of those being without any chance of winning.

 

Players are just part of a team, not the team itself just parts

[flat land fish]

On 12/17/2022 at 6:36 PM, grandmaster said:

No sorry. Petey is a special player. He reminds me of the Sedins. Like the Sedins, he will get stronger over time and dominate this league. Bo has hit his ceiling and doesn’t compare. 

Players that make those around them better are the ones you need Bo as good as he is isn’t a big play driver.

[Ruthervin]

On 12/17/2022 at 4:12 PM, Ruthervin said:

The Canucks would be better off moving Elias Pettersson than Bo Horvat

 

The “narrative” amongst many media members and fans is that the Canucks should build around Pettersson, Demko, and Hughes while attempting to trade pretty much anyone else (ie Horvat, Kuzmenko, Garland, and Miller/OEL/Boeser if they are at all moveable).   The problem with that strategy however is as follows:

 

1) If the Canucks choose to do a rebuild, you will waste the prime years of Hughes and Demko where they are on good cap hits.  By the time the Canucks were to emerge out of a retool, guys like Hughes and Demko would be at or near contract expiration.   
 

2) If the Canucks go through another rebuild, there’s a risk that Pettersson will not want to stay here, and will pull a Matt Tkachuk.  Yes, JP Barry went on the air yesterday and mentioned that Petey loves it here, and sees the Matt Barzal contract as a comparable, but there are no guarantees.  Petey has also stated in the past that he wants to win a cup and that if he doesn’t feel the organization is progressing, he’d consider all options (didn’t say this explicitly but rather implied it).

 

3) Guys like Garland, OEL, Mikheyev, Kuzmenko, and Miller were specifically brought in here and/or signed here because they were lead to believe that the Canucks would be pushing towards being competitive and pushing towards being a playoff team.  IF Rutherford-Alvin went off in a different direction at this point, it would send a TERRIBLE message to these players, as well as future free agents. Like it or not, the Canucks made their decision about this organization with the Miller signing.  With Miller and OEL here for the long term and basically being almost impossible to move, the Canucks have to push forward with this core:

 

[b]Now, you may be asking, “well what the hell does this have to do with wanting to keep Horvat over Pettersson?” [/b]

 

The answer is as follows:   The Canucks biggest organizational weakness right now is their team structure. Although they are very deep up front, many of these forwards aren’t very good on the back check….which is problematic since our defense is very anemic…..which ultimately results in the Canucks giving uo and inordinately high number of high danger chances.  The ONLY way to fix this deep structural flaw is to acquire an elite top pairing right handed defenseman that can not only help elevate Hughes to the top pairing but can also serve as that “shut down” all situations horse that can minimize Hughes’ weaknesses while maximizing Hughes strengths.  A younger version of Chris Tanev……the Brent Seabrook to Quinn Hughes’ Duncan Keith if you will.  The Canucks need someone like Noah Dobson or Braden Schneider (I won’t mention Moritz Seider because he’s untouchable now), and the only guy that the Canucks have that can acquire such a piece is Elias Pettersson.  
 

While a guy like Horvat will fetch you a 1st rounder and a decent prospect, he’s not going to fetch you the next Brent Seabrook which is EXACTLY what this team needs both short term and long term.  With the Canucks being structurally flawed, it wouldn’t matter if we had Connor McDavid in this team (instead of Horvat).  Hell, it wouldn’t even matter if the Canucks had a very deep prospect pool.  The Canucks, as they are right now, would be doomed to fail because of their tire fire defense.  The only way to fix that is to trade Pettersson for an elite RD.  By doing that, it would create a rippling effect.  
 

Hughes-[PetterssonTrade]
OEL-Bear

Schenn-Myers

 

With [PetterssonTrade], you’d elevate Hughes to the top pairing and have a guy that would help maximize Hughes’ strengths while minimizing his weaknesses.  Similar to what Chris Tanev did in 2019-2020.  OEL-Bear would then avoid taking on the toughest match ups while Schenn could help carry Myers on the 3rd pairing.  Eventually, once Pearson and Myers come off the books, you could have the following structure:

 

Hughes-[PetterssonTrade]
#####-Bear

OEL-####
 

You can sign a good 2nd pairing dman to play with Bear on the 2nd pairing while OEL can play on the 3rd pairing with someone cheap.

 

Defensive structure problem solved.

 

Now, up front?  At center, I would roll with the following:   
 

#####-Horvat#####
#####-Miller-#####
#####-New 3rd line C####
 

Yes, Horvat and Miller as your 1-2 punch down the middle wouldn’t be elite, but it would still be pretty solid….and if the Canucks were to somehow acquire a decent 3rd line center (which is WAY easier than acquiring an elite top pairing RD), then the Canucks would be a very balanced team…..a team that could choose to roll four lines instead of being too heavy.   
 

So, this is what I ultimately propose:

 

1) Trade Pettersson for an elite top pairing RD and a decent 3rd line center. Noah Dobson or Braden Schneider.  So maybe, Pettersson and Schenn for Braden Schneider and Filip Chytl or Pettersson and Schenn for Noah Dobson and Jean Gabriel Pageau.

 

2) Sign Horvat 

 

3) Sign Kuzmenko

 

4) Trade Boeser for a 3rd line center if you don’t trade for a 3rd line C in my 1st move.  So maybe Boeser to Montreal for Monahan if we don’t get Chytyl or Pageau.

 

5) Trade Connor Garland for a draft pick.  This will give us cap space

 

6) If we don’t trade Luke Schenn in my first idea, then move Schenn for a draft pick at the deadline. 
 

7) In the off-season, consider using a sweetener to move Myers and use that money on a good defenseman that can play with Bear on the 2nd pairing.

 

New future lines:

 

Kuzmenko-Horvat-Lazar

Mikheyev-Miller-Hoglander

Pearson-[BoeserTrade]-Podkolzin

#####-Aman-Joshua

 

Hughes-[PetterssonTrade]
#####-Bear

OEL-####
 

Demko

Martin

 

 

 

Jesus, lol.  I’m getting lit up in this thread.  Awful debut.