RinkonRenfrew Posted August 30, 2023 Share Posted August 30, 2023 Think we’ve got a little off topic. Miller or no Miller, I don’t see Petey cutting bait and running as long as this team is trying. Of course he wants to win, but if he’s intent on being a cup finalist year-in year-out, the obvious move is to get to ufa and jump teams. I don’t think that’s who he is though. If I’m him, I’d wait for next off season and sign a shorter contract. And that would have nothing to do with wanting to be here long term, which i think he does. This team is on the upswing, and he gets to lead that. i’m happy to see him betting on himself to keep improving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted August 30, 2023 Share Posted August 30, 2023 9 minutes ago, RinkonRenfrew said: Exactly. they’re not rebuilding. And, teams can flip picks for young or established players. Trades aren’t easy to make, picks are currency, and two-part trades can facilitate a team’s needs. I know what PA said. i’m sure he wanted a good young centerman or a top 4 rd for Horvat. If a team offers you a good price in flippable assets, you don’t say no because there isn’t the player with the age/position you covet offered. The rumoured Ranger offer didn’t have any premium value pieces, so i get why he passed. If there was a top 10 pick plus plus offered, I think that might have done it two trade deadlines ago. I’m glad they set the price high and didn’t cave. But if they had traded him, I’d expect those assets we received to be traded again for pieces we need now and in the medium that align with Petey and Hughes prime years. Yes, I agree with that. The two-part trade, flipping assets, it worked really well with Horvat, as the Islanders weren't giving up any of their RHD. If the rumour is correct, Allvin was trying to do the same thing with Miller but most likely couldn't find the young 2C he wanted. I was never opposed to a Miller trade. In fact, I even made trade proposals for him. However, I like what they have done in adding to the core with Hronek and building around Petey and Miller up front. Miller isn't perfect but he checks most of the boxes on what you want in a 2C. Add in Hughes, Demko and Kuzmenko and you have a pretty decent core 5. Miller obviously is 30 years old so we are going to be looking to contend sooner rather than later, which is a good thing. I don't think this city could wait another 5-6 years for a contender. We have our core 5 right now, so why not build a contender around them? Makes sense to me. Plus, Allvin isn't throwing away any of his 1st round picks either, so now we have two solid prospects in Willander and Lekkerimaki since Allvin arrived. Even D-Petey looks legit as a 3rd rounder... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RinkonRenfrew Posted August 30, 2023 Share Posted August 30, 2023 4 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: Yes, I agree with that. The two-part trade, flipping assets, it worked really well with Horvat, as the Islanders weren't giving up any of their RHD. If the rumour is correct, Allvin was trying to do the same thing with Miller but most likely couldn't find the young 2C he wanted. I was never opposed to a Miller trade. In fact, I even made trade proposals for him. However, I like what they have done in adding to the core with Hronek and building around Petey and Miller up front. Miller isn't perfect but he checks most of the boxes on what you want in a 2C. Add in Hughes, Demko and Kuzmenko and you have a pretty decent core 5. Miller obviously is 30 years old so we are going to be looking to contend sooner rather than later, which is a good thing. I don't think this city could wait another 5-6 years for a contender. We have our core 5 right now, so why not build a contender around them? Makes sense to me. Plus, Allvin isn't throwing away any of his 1st round picks either, so now we have two solid prospects in Willander and Lekkerimaki since Allvin arrived. Even D-Petey looks legit as a 3rd rounder... Agreed. If you’re going to move a Miller or a Horvat, you need a premium piece to flip to get what you really want if it’s not coming back in the original trade. NYI 1st was pretty close with that team’s trajectory and the conditions on it. Im happy having Miller as our 2c. We’re clearly a team that is looking to make some noise as our young stars mature and drag the team to respectable. A lot can change in 3-4 years, but OEL’s buyout and Miller likely declining from an elite 2C can be sorted out then. Trying to crystal ball all our players peaking over a longer window isn’t an easy task, but neither is winning the cup. I don’t get the feeling that this mgmnt will push all their chips in at the first sign of playoffs, so hopefully they can find a way to keep the contender window open a little longer for the duration of petey and qh’s best years. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wai_lai416 Posted August 30, 2023 Share Posted August 30, 2023 5 hours ago, KirkSave said: If we moved Miller along with Horvat, no way Petey resigns in Van long term. That would have signaled an actual tear down, rebuild. Petey has made it plain he wants to play on a winner. This team should be scrappy. I like the new additions. We have decent depth at all positions and loads of skill. If Demko can stay healthy and our PK NOT be a disaster, we should be in the fight for a playoff spot. Just cannot afford another terrible start to the season. I like the job Alvin has done with limited cap space. He inherited a bit of a tire fire. Hoping the cap increases as projected in the years to come or that OEL cap penalty will really hurt in '26 and '27. I hated that move when it happened but it goes with MGMT's MO, trying to make the team more competitive in the here and now. Canucks could be this year's version of Seattle. Here's hoping!! not really if we moved miller and horvat.. i think we have a very realistic chance of getting one of the top 3 picks whether it's bedard fantilli or carlsson smith reinbacher if we luck out and get any of those 3? any one of those 3 even smith would be a huge upgrade over miller in 2 years time and long term. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Provost Posted August 30, 2023 Share Posted August 30, 2023 1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said: I doubt Allvin's idea of trading for a younger 2C meant someone who is still basically a prospect. Newhook and Krebs are a stretch to think they willl ever be a legit 2C in the NHL. Eichel would be a pretty expensive 2C at $10 million. PLD would have been a great fit, but they never pulled the trigger on him because Winnipeg wasn't interested in picks, they wanted ready made NHL players which they got from LA. They aren't interested in a rebuild and neither is Allvin. Trading Miiler and Horvat forces the team to also look at trading Petey because Petey isn't interested in playing for a rebuilding team. He even said it himself. So in effect yes, it would constitute the start of a rebuild and Hughes would be the next one out the door... You don’t need a 1 for 1 replacement for Miller if you have more depth and better players all over the roster like could have been accomplished with trades and a buttload of cap space. You also suddenly would have some high end picks and prospects which will be badly needed in the coming years to pay for raises to guys like Petterson, Hronek, and Hughes. It is really tough to build a contending roster without cheap ELC players outperforming Their contracts and offsetting more expensive market rate players. We have to hope that we are very competitive this year as there is no cavalry coming in the pipeline, we still have one of the worst prospect pools in the league. All the the big cap increases in the coming years are already spent if you want to keep this roster together. Petterson/ Hronek raises and Eriksson’s increased penalty eat up about $12 million in extra cap by two seasons from now. Teams with their key players already signed and cheap ELC players on the way will use that $12 million to get better while we use it to tread water. If we aren’t going on a bubble type playoff run this year then we are screwed. We will have to trade guys like Petey and Hronek who likely don’t want to tie the rest of their careers to a floundering team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DownUndaCanuck Posted August 30, 2023 Share Posted August 30, 2023 If we're really tanking hard around the TDL time, nowhere close to a playoff spot, I wonder if we cut our losses and try and trade Petey? Surely he'll be on pace for 100pts by then easily. Obviously he's an RFA and could just walk but...wonder if we get some value out of him? If we're losing him I wonder if we blow it up completely or just revolve around Miller, Hughes and Demko? Surely Demmer is going to want out but Hughes is on a pretty long-term neat deal and Miller obviously just signed. I'd be happy to blow it up but it'd start with Petey and the deadline to a very desperate team in need of a top line center. Bit gross to think about but Boston would be itching for him. Wonder what we'd get for a pending RFA in the prime of his career? Couple of firsts and a prospect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostsof1915 Posted August 30, 2023 Share Posted August 30, 2023 (edited) 10 hours ago, Provost said: There were numerous offers reported and the Canucks insisted on an NHL ready young centre back. There was also for sure a Penguins offer for significant futures. That would have also freed up a huge amount of cap space that could have been weaponized or used on other players when the cap was super tight around the league. Please stop using that term weaponized. There's no such thing. That would only be using gobs of cap space to do the stupid thing of making offer sheets. Which is basically a GM committing career suicide. Montreal/Carolina being a recent example of not only failing to try and grab a player, but the team retaliated back and wound up stealing an important player from Montreal when they ran out of cap space. Having cap space means you have options at the trade deadline, or at the start of the season. The Pittsburgh/Vancouver thing was a rumour. Nothing more. Look at a team like Arizona. They had cap space. Did they "weaponize" it? Nope. Are you seeing Chicago and Anaheim doing anything with cap space? Nope. May they take advantage of it at the start of the season? Yes. But I don't see Chicago or Anaheim making offer sheets. They might trade cap space for bad contracts and get more draft picks and accelerate the rebuilds. Edited August 30, 2023 by Ghostsof1915 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KirkSave Posted August 30, 2023 Share Posted August 30, 2023 8 hours ago, stawns said: A retool is what everyone does. This myth of a "rebuild" is exactly that, a myth I gave you a handful of examples of the differences b.w rebuilding teams (Chicago, Anaheim, Arizona, Ottawa, Buffalo) and retooling teams (Nashville, Calgary, Isles, Canucks). Get your head outta the sand lol. Majority of teams retool, whereas some go full tear down, rebuild mode, which is way more painful for the fanbase and harder on the owner's pocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted August 30, 2023 Share Posted August 30, 2023 1 hour ago, KirkSave said: I gave you a handful of examples of the differences b.w rebuilding teams (Chicago, Anaheim, Arizona, Ottawa, Buffalo) and retooling teams (Nashville, Calgary, Isles, Canucks). Get your head outta the sand lol. Majority of teams retool, whereas some go full tear down, rebuild mode, which is way more painful for the fanbase and harder on the owner's pocket. Ottawa did not tear down Maybe rebuild successfully is a myth would have been a better way to put it. The only thing it seems to accomplish is a decade or more of languishing in the basement suite of the NHL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted August 30, 2023 Share Posted August 30, 2023 9 hours ago, Provost said: You don’t need a 1 for 1 replacement for Miller if you have more depth and better players all over the roster like could have been accomplished with trades and a buttload of cap space. You also suddenly would have some high end picks and prospects which will be badly needed in the coming years to pay for raises to guys like Petterson, Hronek, and Hughes. It is really tough to build a contending roster without cheap ELC players outperforming Their contracts and offsetting more expensive market rate players. We have to hope that we are very competitive this year as there is no cavalry coming in the pipeline, we still have one of the worst prospect pools in the league. All the the big cap increases in the coming years are already spent if you want to keep this roster together. Petterson/ Hronek raises and Eriksson’s increased penalty eat up about $12 million in extra cap by two seasons from now. Teams with their key players already signed and cheap ELC players on the way will use that $12 million to get better while we use it to tread water. If we aren’t going on a bubble type playoff run this year then we are screwed. We will have to trade guys like Petey and Hronek who likely don’t want to tie the rest of their careers to a floundering team. I don't buy into the "one of the worst prospects pools in the NHL" mantra........technically it might seem that way, but they also have the youngest NHL roster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted August 30, 2023 Share Posted August 30, 2023 11 hours ago, stawns said: A retool is what everyone does. This myth of a "rebuild" is exactly that, a myth So Chicago is currently retooling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted August 30, 2023 Share Posted August 30, 2023 2 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: So Chicago is currently retooling? Seems that way don't you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted August 30, 2023 Share Posted August 30, 2023 1 minute ago, stawns said: Seems that way don't you think? Actually it seems like they tore the whole thing down and are rebuilding with Connor Bedard. What part of their rebuild seems like a retool to you? A retool is when you already have a core in place and move other parts around. Or you may move a core piece to acquire other assets or core pieces. Like Vancouver did by moving Horvat to acquire Hronek. What Chicago is doing is the very definition of a rebuild. Trade or get rid of all of your core pieces for picks and prospects and rebuild through the draft. They unfortunately screwed up their rebuild by trading picks and prospects for Seth Jones. This happens quite frequently when teams are caught in the middle and don’t know whether they should fully tear it down or just move some pieces around. In hindsight, if they had kept those assets and not traded for Jones, Chicago would be much further along in their rebuild. I believe the picks traded to Columbus were user to draft David Jiricek and Cole Sillinger. And Adam Boqvist also went the other way. 3 young players that could have been playing with Bedard for the next 15 years. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostsof1915 Posted August 30, 2023 Share Posted August 30, 2023 13 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: Actually it seems like they tore the whole thing down and are rebuilding with Connor Bedard. What part of their rebuild seems like a retool to you? A retool is when you already have a core in place and move other parts around. Or you may move a core piece to acquire other assets or core pieces. Like Vancouver did by moving Horvat to acquire Hronek. What Chicago is doing is the very definition of a rebuild. Trade or get rid of all of your core pieces for picks and prospects and rebuild through the draft. They unfortunately screwed up their rebuild by trading picks and prospects for Seth Jones. This happens quite frequently when teams are caught in the middle and don’t know whether they should fully tear it down or just move some pieces around. In hindsight, if they had kept those assets and not traded for Jones, Chicago would be much further along in their rebuild. I believe the picks traded to Columbus were user to draft David Jiricek and Cole Sillinger. And Adam Boqvist also went the other way. 3 young players that could have been playing with Bedard for the next 15 years. I think more of they gradually let the team lose it's older stars by attrition. They got something for Kane from NYR. What they should have done was try and draft and develop so when they got to drafting Bedard, at least you can set him up with some good pieces. Chicago seemed to be trying to compete by trading for Seth Jones. Then changed their mind. (And GM, with scandals etc.) Now they have to start all over again. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tower102 Posted August 30, 2023 Share Posted August 30, 2023 Chicago blew it up, come on, thats a rebuild. They traded a young Debrincat and a young Dach. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted August 30, 2023 Share Posted August 30, 2023 5 minutes ago, Tower102 said: Chicago blew it up, come on, thats a rebuild. They traded a young Debrincat and a young Dach. Yup. The Hawks new deBrincat and Dach were crap. Dumperooed them on a couple stupid GMs. Especially Dach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BertaNuck Posted August 30, 2023 Share Posted August 30, 2023 Vancouver has Been an under performing circus media show for a few years can’t blame him for wanting to wait and see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostsof1915 Posted August 30, 2023 Share Posted August 30, 2023 Welcome to the EP40 Angst thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeNiro Posted August 30, 2023 Share Posted August 30, 2023 59 minutes ago, BertaNuck said: Vancouver has Been an under performing circus media show for a few years can’t blame him for wanting to wait and see It starts at the top. As long as we have an owner who’s personal life keeps creating distractions for the team it won’t change. Really wish we had hands off owners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nooks Posted August 30, 2023 Share Posted August 30, 2023 2 hours ago, stawns said: Seems that way don't you think? Not a retool they’re full sandbag tank submarine and trade Kane, Dach, DeBrincat to get 1st overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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