striker7 Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 As long as Mike Illitch is alive, funding will not be an issue. Despite all the flak Detroit gets as a city, his family's contributions to the city often get overlooked. He legitimately feels strongly about the city and although he is more focused on a World Series (as he owns the Tigers as well), he is not going to force Holland's hand just to save a little bit of money. As I said before, they drop Samuelsson, Bertuzzi, Cleary, and Quincey after the season. I have no doubt that if Holland said he needed to use the other amnesty available, that the answer would unequivocally be yes. I really do not believe Detroit makes any trades with the idea of saving money. Some of the trades offered up in here look fair to me, but the reason Detroit won't make them is because they are looking for a permanent solution, not a salary dump. I still maintain that unless they were trading for a bonafide superstar player, Mantha and Nyquist are not going anywhere. As far as the Kesler talk, I would be very surprised if Detroit was interested and it has nothing to do with his value as a player. They just need a top 4 defenseman above all else and I don't see them moving assets for a forward until the defense is fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canucklehead44 Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 It would be cool to get Bertuzzi back as a throw-in to provide mentorship to Kassian, scoring depth, and the possibility of having him retire as a Canuck. Franzen doesn't have a whole lot of value. He would be a nice player to have but given his age, contract, injuries, and declining production he is a bit of a risk. Brendan Smith is a solid piece as we need a defenseman who can skate. I think the big piece for Vancouver would be a young forward prospect who can fill in the lineup right away or play top minutes in Utica. I think Tomas Jurco could be that piece. Edler, Sauve, Friesen for Franzen, Smith, Jurco, Bertuzzi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Money Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 Bertuzzi will never, ever be a Canuck again. Neither him, the organization, nor the league wants to give the Steve Moore story any more legs. Even the proposition of such is ludicrous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Wasn't their a rurmor that MG was offered three pieces including Tatar, Sheahan, and something else before the NTC kicked in? That would have been decent return... nothing over the top good, but pretty decent for sure As long as Mike Illitch is alive, funding will not be an issue. Despite all the flak Detroit gets as a city, his family's contributions to the city often get overlooked. He legitimately feels strongly about the city and although he is more focused on a World Series (as he owns the Tigers as well), he is not going to force Holland's hand just to save a little bit of money. As I said before, they drop Samuelsson, Bertuzzi, Cleary, and Quincey after the season. I have no doubt that if Holland said he needed to use the other amnesty available, that the answer would unequivocally be yes. I really do not believe Detroit makes any trades with the idea of saving money. Some of the trades offered up in here look fair to me, but the reason Detroit won't make them is because they are looking for a permanent solution, not a salary dump. I still maintain that unless they were trading for a bonafide superstar player, Mantha and Nyquist are not going anywhere. As far as the Kesler talk, I would be very surprised if Detroit was interested and it has nothing to do with his value as a player. They just need a top 4 defenseman above all else and I don't see them moving assets for a forward until the defense is fixed. Thats just short term thinking. Adding an athletic potential star center, already well established, who is younger and more athletic than Z and D is the type of move that would transition them a generation without any serious drop. They still would need their D man to escalate back to contender status though, Yes. However, with Z injured, Kesler could also make the difference of a play off berth this year. He is also more the difference maker that elevates a team in comparison to Edler. Add in home town boy (who is the best Michigan born NHL player in the league right now?) whom they would expect to re-sign in summer 2016 and its compelling. Bertuzzi will never, ever be a Canuck again. Neither him, the organization, nor the league wants to give the Steve Moore story any more legs. Even the proposition of such is ludicrous. Not to mention there is still $20 or so odd million hanging in a legal settlement Bertuzzi wants the Canucks to contribute to... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VIC_CITY Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Why do you let your hate for Edler get in the way of what he's actually worth? I completely agree. Everyone knew Edler would get at least $5.0M per on his new deal and at the time, he was viewed as worth every penny. There's no way a guy's stock can drop that fast unless he was damaged goods, which Edler is not. He is a 40 point Dman year in, year out that just happens to be a bit behind that pace lately. Yes, he has his defensive lapses and seems to have bad puck luck with the recent goals going in off him but he's still a very valuable asset. He's 6'3 215 LBS, is a plus puck mover, has a plus shot, he plays in all situations...Canuck fans are just mad that he didn't turn out to be a Shea Weber type. The guy oozes potential but hasn't really put it all together. If he did he'd be a top 10 NHL Dman. He isn't that but he's a SOLID top 4 Dman and is still only 27! Sounds like a pretty good asset to me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
73 Percent Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 I completely agree. Everyone knew Edler would get at least $5.0M per on his new deal and at the time, he was viewed as worth every penny. There's no way a guy's stock can drop that fast unless he was damaged goods, which Edler is not. He is a 40 point Dman year in, year out that just happens to be a bit behind that pace lately. Yes, he has his defensive lapses and seems to have bad puck luck with the recent goals going in off him but he's still a very valuable asset. He's 6'3 215 LBS, is a plus puck mover, has a plus shot, he plays in all situations...Canuck fans are just mad that he didn't turn out to be a Shea Weber type. The guy oozes potential but hasn't really put it all together. If he did he'd be a top 10 NHL Dman. He isn't that but he's a SOLID top 4 Dman and is still only 27! Sounds like a pretty good asset to me! good post. 100% agreed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VIC_CITY Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 good post. 100% agreed Cheers brotha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry Goose Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 I completely agree. Everyone knew Edler would get at least $5.0M per on his new deal and at the time, he was viewed as worth every penny. There's no way a guy's stock can drop that fast unless he was damaged goods, which Edler is not. He is a 40 point Dman year in, year out that just happens to be a bit behind that pace lately. Yes, he has his defensive lapses and seems to have bad puck luck with the recent goals going in off him but he's still a very valuable asset. He's 6'3 215 LBS, is a plus puck mover, has a plus shot, he plays in all situations...Canuck fans are just mad that he didn't turn out to be a Shea Weber type. The guy oozes potential but hasn't really put it all together. If he did he'd be a top 10 NHL Dman. He isn't that but he's a SOLID top 4 Dman and is still only 27! Sounds like a pretty good asset to me! Yep I definitely have high praises for Edler given what you say, and too many people undervalue the small things he does like his strong work along the boards against other teams big and best players. I think losing Edler sucks because the Canucks give up alot of size in the back end, but the Canucks have similar puck movers in Hamhuis, Bieksa & Tanev. If a deal with DET is made, a smart deal is to get a top prospect that can play now (like Tatar) and something for the future (like 2015 1st round pick or prospect) + whatever to make the deal work for both sides. I agree with striker7 that CDC is living in a dreamworld if they think Mantha is tradeable, and maybe add Nyquist to that as well. We would never trade Horvat/Shinkaruk/Kassian/Tanev etc. so why would DET equally give up their best young players? My guess is DET is very serious in Edler, they'll make a deal work involving different players, and nobody should be surprised by that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pears Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Yep I definitely have high praises for Edler given what you say, and too many people undervalue the small things he does like his strong work along the boards against other teams big and best players. I think losing Edler sucks because the Canucks give up alot of size in the back end, but the Canucks have similar puck movers in Hamhuis, Bieksa & Tanev. If a deal with DET is made, a smart deal is to get a top prospect that can play now (like Tatar) and something for the future (like 2015 1st round pick or prospect) + whatever to make the deal work for both sides. I agree with striker7 that CDC is living in a dreamworld if they think Mantha is tradeable, and maybe add Nyquist to that as well. We would never trade Horvat/Shinkaruk/Kassian/Tanev etc. so why would DET equally give up their best young players? My guess is DET is very serious in Edler, they'll make a deal work involving different players, and nobody should be surprised by that. Detroit isn't getting Edler if they don't offer Franzen+Mantha at least. If we can't get one of their young kids we'll look at trading Edler somewhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Fig Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Of course we're interested in Franzen, he's an aging player with injury problems and that is signed till he's 40! what's not to like? He and Lou could chip in and buy Polident at bulk rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
messier's_elbow Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 I think the Wings want a top 4 defenseman who can help the power play. Kronwall, DeKeyser, and Ericsson are their top 3, and Kindl is a 5-6 (but often plays like a 7 or 8). Smith could develop into that role, but if it happens, it won't be for a few more years. Quincey has been total garbage since he has been here. He will make a nice play or two, and then cancel that by making a dozen awful ones. I think he is the player Detroit desires to upgrade from. When I posted before, I just wanted to give a Detroit perspective on what kind of players you were potentially going to get based upon what I had been reading. My personal opinion is that if a deal for Edler was going to be made, Holland would wait until the summer as opposed to trading away more assets just to move Franzen's contract now, when the team can amnesty him in July if they really want him gone. So unless your team actually wanted Franzen as part of the deal, I don't see any way a trade happens (assuming Franzen returns before the deadline, which seems doubtful) before the draft. Any trade for Edler now would require Detroit to trade close to equal money because of the team's cap situation, but Samuelsson, Cleary, Bertuzzi, and Quincey are all coming off the books this summer and currently they are estimated to have about $22 million in cap space with Tatar and Dekeyser the only players I expect to be re-signed (both are RFAs). Edler to Detroit has been swirling around here since the summer, so I do think there is interest. However, everything I have heard (and just the feeling I have about it) tells me that both Mantha and Nyquist are not available for trade. The other players talked about in here like Smith, Jurco, Tatar, and even Helm, I can see being moved. I also don't think Holland is afraid to move his 1st round pick this season, even if they think they will miss the playoffs (which they will if the reports on Zetterberg are accurate, as he has been their best player by miles). But with all the teams jumbled up in points right now, I think Holland would again wait until the summer to know just how valuable the pick is (both with scouting and the fact that Detroit could easily have a pick inside the top 10 this season). Although I do think Detroit has interest in Edler despite his struggles this season (at least that is what I have gathered from reading posts in here), they are still trading for "potential" when I know they are looking for stability and not more questions. Stability costs more, so both teams waiting to see how this season pans out before evaluating assets makes the most sense to me. I don't think any trade between these teams (within reason) drastically changes the outcome of where these teams are going this season. If a trade is made, again just my opinion, I think it is done with the future in mind for both of these teams, and to me that means no earlier than the 2014 draft. If Mantha and Nyquist arent available for trade then either should Edler in my opinion. If Edler can regain his 2011 form hes worth a ton. Selling low and getting an average return is how you end up a bottom feeder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Money Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 If Mantha and Nyquist arent available for trade then either should Edler in my opinion. If Edler can regain his 2011 form hes worth a ton. Selling low and getting an average return is how you end up a bottom feeder. This is why I'd rather trade Hamhuis or Garrison. Higher return, and we still potentially keep the best player in the long term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noseforthenet Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 As long as Mike Illitch is alive, funding will not be an issue. Despite all the flak Detroit gets as a city, his family's contributions to the city often get overlooked. He legitimately feels strongly about the city and although he is more focused on a World Series (as he owns the Tigers as well), he is not going to force Holland's hand just to save a little bit of money. As I said before, they drop Samuelsson, Bertuzzi, Cleary, and Quincey after the season. I have no doubt that if Holland said he needed to use the other amnesty available, that the answer would unequivocally be yes. I really do not believe Detroit makes any trades with the idea of saving money. Some of the trades offered up in here look fair to me, but the reason Detroit won't make them is because they are looking for a permanent solution, not a salary dump. I still maintain that unless they were trading for a bonafide superstar player, Mantha and Nyquist are not going anywhere. As far as the Kesler talk, I would be very surprised if Detroit was interested and it has nothing to do with his value as a player. They just need a top 4 defenseman above all else and I don't see them moving assets for a forward until the defense is fixed. You make some great points, here! And I can definitely see what you mean about Detroit not being worried about money. are people seriously complaining about how much Helm makes?! That's pretty great production for bottom 6. My question to you is how is he at playing wing? My other thought is, even though he is injured and out for the season, what exactly can Darren Helm do that Mike Santorelli can't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millerdraft Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 You make some great points, here! And I can definitely see what you mean about Detroit not being worried about money. are people seriously complaining about how much Helm makes?! That's pretty great production for bottom 6. My question to you is how is he at playing wing? My other thought is, even though he is injured and out for the season, what exactly can Darren Helm do that Mike Santorelli can't? Play Selke calibre defence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
striker7 Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Thats just short term thinking. Adding an athletic potential star center, already well established, who is younger and more athletic than Z and D is the type of move that would transition them a generation without any serious drop. They still would need their D man to escalate back to contender status though, Yes. However, with Z injured, Kesler could also make the difference of a play off berth this year. He is also more the difference maker that elevates a team in comparison to Edler. Add in home town boy (who is the best Michigan born NHL player in the league right now?) whom they would expect to re-sign in summer 2016 and its compelling. Not to mention there is still $20 or so odd million hanging in a legal settlement Bertuzzi wants the Canucks to contribute to... I have nothing against Kesler, but everything anyone has said publicly about Detroit's search is that it all hovers around a defenseman. I am not saying he would not work or that he is not worth getting. I honestly don't see Detroit moving assets for a forward as they want to save them for a defenseman. They don't want to be kicking themselves later when the assets they moved for a forward turned into a problem because they needed them for a later trade instead. Furthermore, Holland is not going to empty his prospects to acquire just a few players. If Holland makes a move, it will be just one and for a defenseman, as outside of the deadline style depth moves, he does not trade players often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
striker7 Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 If Mantha and Nyquist arent available for trade then either should Edler in my opinion. If Edler can regain his 2011 form hes worth a ton. Selling low and getting an average return is how you end up a bottom feeder. I think Detroit is prepared to live with that. This is also why I think this trade would not happen now. Teams don't want to get low return on players and other teams don't want to pay premium prices for players that might return to form or might not. It goes both ways here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shane1733 Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 I literally had a dream we traded Edler for a first round pick to Detroit last night. I guess thats what I truly think they'd pay for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyCuddles Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 This is why I'd rather trade Hamhuis or Garrison. Higher return, and we still potentially keep the best player in the long term. We'd get less value from Garrison and Hamhuis and they are the least likely to waive their NTC's given they took a home town discount to be here, you know close to home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadiangunner Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 If Edler is moved to wings it will be for a hefty return. No way is a guy like edler moved for anything less then a package that includes 3 of the following: Mantha/Nyquist/Abdelkador/Tatat/First rounder/Smith. If anything less edler is going nowhere, guys like him especially for a 5m cap hit don't come around too often and it takes a great return to move them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noseforthenet Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Play Selke calibre defence? Helm is less than 50% on faceoffs. Can't see a Selke caliber player ever winning or even being close to a Selke with less than 50%. That's why I wanted to know if he can also play wing. But, I mean if you look at it, Santorelli has a better PPG than Helm this season, came to camp in better shape than anyone else on the team, he's from Van so he would take a hometown discount, and his faceoffs are great! Wouldn't Helm be more redundancy? I mean, besides his speed. Speed isn't everything though. Hansen also has lots of speed.... Oh and I forgot to mention...Santorelli can also play wing. Btw, this is not me waving the flag to keep Santorelli in the fold, but saying if that's the way we are going, might as well keep him instead of take Helm off Detroit's hands. If we were to take Helm from them, I would want consistent top 6 production on the wing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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