Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW

[stawns]

3 minutes ago, JamesB said:

The 5th Line is kind of playing the Devil's Advocate. We all want Jake to do well and we can all agree that Jake shows a lot of promise despite what happened at the WJC. Jake is certainly not the only reason the Canada lost, or even the main reason. But he did have a bad tournament. If we can't see that then we have no objectivity at all.

And he has been disappointing with the Canucks so far this year. He is far behind McCann and far behind where Horvat was last year. Maybe, like Horvat, he comes on strong in the second half. I hope he does. But things have not gone a well as most people hoped or expected this year.

I agree. Willie is a supportive coach who is good with young players (as his long track record shows). And he is saying the right things about Jake. He is putting a positive spin on the situation, but that is exactly what he should be doing.

Unfortunately, I think that is correct.

I think the "objectivity" is directly proportional to the expectation level of every individual.  I see a kid with elite skills, a power forward body and plays with an edge, but he's a lump of unfolded clay.  My feeling at the beginning of the year was that I wanted to see him play a defensively responsible game, use his speed and big to create some space for him and his linemates, and show that he can be a player who has an impact on the game.

To me, he's shown steady progress in all those areas.  My personal approach to hockey and scouting is that I generally don't care much for things that are measureable.......I look for the immeasurable because those are all the things that you build measureable plays on.  

[JamesB]

7 minutes ago, stawns said:

I think the "objectivity" is directly proportional to the expectation level of every individual.  I see a kid with elite skills, a power forward body and plays with an edge, but he's a lump of unfolded clay.  My feeling at the beginning of the year was that I wanted to see him play a defensively responsible game, use his speed and big to create some space for him and his linemates, and show that he can be a player who has an impact on the game.

To me, he's shown steady progress in all those areas.  My personal approach to hockey and scouting is that I generally don't care much for things that are measureable.......I look for the immeasurable because those are all the things that you build measureable plays on.  

Fair point. Maybe the problem is largely one of expectations -- that many us expected too much of Jake this year in the NHL and at the WJC.

But certainly going into the WJC the consensus was that he would be a leader. Even Jake himself talked about the expectation for him to score and to play a big role on the team.

So maybe we have expected too much, but those expectations were quite widely held. Expectations have no doubt been scaled back after the WJC, and that might be a good thing.

[Canorth]

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Edited January 3, 2016 by Canorth

[CANUCK-EXPRESS]

Jake liked this tweet. Must suck reading all the negative comments about you.

 

 Follow

Anonymous‏@anonymous18889

Please read, favourite, retweet @TSN_Sports @HockeyCanada @Jake_Virtanen #AllHeartCanada #BigCountry #HereWeGo

Edited January 3, 2016 by CANUCK-EXPRESS

[babych]

38 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

No, but he can convince another junior team to trade for his rights with the promise that he'll send Jake down.

He already did that with Stewart.

Do you have anything to back this up? To be clear, I'm not trying to be a jerk or challenge you or anything like that (I feel like I need to state this as it's hard to read tone from text) but I find it really hard to believe that a NHL GM would broker a deal at the WHL level without consent from the WHL team that controls the right to the player in question.

Hypothetically, let's say this scenario did happen; JB brokers a deal with another team to trade for JV and then sends him down. I'm pretty sure that the Hitmen would have to sign off on the deal, would they not? Otherwise JB could send Virt to one of the Hitmens biggest competitors (like Red Deer for example) for next to nothing.

It really doesn't make any sort of sense to me that an NHL GM can exert any sort of pressure on a junior level club to move a player other than (maybe) an informal suggestion or an asking of a favour.

 

[babych]

5 minutes ago, JamesB said:

Fair point. Maybe the problem is largely one of expectations -- that many us expected too much of Jake this year in the NHL and at the WJC.

But certainly going into the WJC the consensus was that he would be a leader. Even Jake himself talked about the expectation for him to score and to play a big role on the team.

So maybe we have expected too much, but those expectations were quite widely held. Expectations have no doubt been scaled back after the WJC, and that might be a good thing.

You make some solid points JamesB. I will admit to being one the fans that had huge expectations for JV at the WJC this year. Given that Jake had 4 points in 7 games last year playing a supporting role I really felt that he was going to have a really tournament this year.

What went wrong? It's hard to say. It could be any combination of pressure to be a leader, coaching systems, personal expectations, etc.

It's fair for fans of the Canucks and Team Canada to be unhappy with JV's performance. It's not fair, however, for anyone (fan or not) to single out Virtanen as the sole or even main reason for Team Canadas' poor performance this year.

[CANUCK-EXPRESS]

2 minutes ago, babych said:

You make some solid points JamesB. I will admit to being one the fans that had huge expectations for JV at the WJC this year. Given that Jake had 4 points in 7 games last year playing a supporting role I really felt that he was going to have a really tournament this year.

What went wrong? It's hard to say. It could be any combination of pressure to be a leader, coaching systems, personal expectations, etc.

It's fair for fans of the Canucks and Team Canada to be unhappy with JV's performance. It's not fair, however, for anyone (fan or not) to single out Virtanen as the sole or even main reason for Team Canadas' poor performance this year.

Yeah you would think he'd have a good tournament this year. However that's what happens when you're expected to produce. You try to do too much and it doesn't work. Some players may put up better numbers if theyre not expected to do much. I bet if McDavid and others were loaned from the NHL. Jake wouldn't have had that high expectations and would play his game more.

[RRypien37]

8 hours ago, Toews said:

He barely even played with Point and Marner.

This. Also Point never actually played at ALL with Marner and Strome on a line. 

[Delta76]

Tough tournament for Virtanen. I will admit I expected more from him and that he did have a disappointing tourney. I did find it strange that Jake really wasn't physical throughout the tournament. It's a part of the game he loves so I doubt he wanted to not play physical. Was he told not to hit? A couple times last year he got penalized for throwing a big hit that wasn't necessarily dirty but just looked bad. Is he still struggling with injury? I'm not sure but I don't think it was his decision to not play physical. 

This however does not mean that we should wright him off. Hopefully Jake takes everything that happened in the tournament and learns from it.

I think that Jake is really struggling with not being the best anymore. When you are the best at something through your whole life it's hard to transition to being just "meh." Every NHL player has to go through this, and some handle better than others. Bo and McCann have taken it in stride but it seems to have affected Jake a little more. Jake is going to have to push through all this and when he finally does I think that we will really see hime start to come on. He has all the tools. 

Of course it is possible that he can't push through and just stays as a "meh" player through his NHL career.

[stawns]

26 minutes ago, babych said:

You make some solid points JamesB. I will admit to being one the fans that had huge expectations for JV at the WJC this year. Given that Jake had 4 points in 7 games last year playing a supporting role I really felt that he was going to have a really tournament this year.

What went wrong? It's hard to say. It could be any combination of pressure to be a leader, coaching systems, personal expectations, etc.

It's fair for fans of the Canucks and Team Canada to be unhappy with JV's performance. It's not fair, however, for anyone (fan or not) to single out Virtanen as the sole or even main reason for Team Canadas' poor performance this year.

Strome makes four passes instead of trying to shoot through a crowd and everyone is raving about Jakes wjhc performance and Canada likely has a better outcome.

[Fanuck]

1 hour ago, babych said:

Do you have anything to back this up? To be clear, I'm not trying to be a jerk or challenge you or anything like that (I feel like I need to state this as it's hard to read tone from text) but I find it really hard to believe that a NHL GM would broker a deal at the WHL level without consent from the WHL team that controls the right to the player in question.

Hypothetically, let's say this scenario did happen; JB brokers a deal with another team to trade for JV and then sends him down. I'm pretty sure that the Hitmen would have to sign off on the deal, would they not? Otherwise JB could send Virt to one of the Hitmens biggest competitors (like Red Deer for example) for next to nothing.

It really doesn't make any sort of sense to me that an NHL GM can exert any sort of pressure on a junior level club to move a player other than (maybe) an informal suggestion or an asking of a favour.

 

It's common knowledge that McTavish did this exact thing for Draisaitl and it seems to have worked out very well for his development. 

Obviously each situation is unique,  but there are some strong similarities between the two. 

[DeNiro]

1 hour ago, babych said:

Do you have anything to back this up? To be clear, I'm not trying to be a jerk or challenge you or anything like that (I feel like I need to state this as it's hard to read tone from text) but I find it really hard to believe that a NHL GM would broker a deal at the WHL level without consent from the WHL team that controls the right to the player in question.

Hypothetically, let's say this scenario did happen; JB brokers a deal with another team to trade for JV and then sends him down. I'm pretty sure that the Hitmen would have to sign off on the deal, would they not? Otherwise JB could send Virt to one of the Hitmens biggest competitors (like Red Deer for example) for next to nothing.

It really doesn't make any sort of sense to me that an NHL GM can exert any sort of pressure on a junior level club to move a player other than (maybe) an informal suggestion or an asking of a favour.

 

Calgary doesn't have to make the deal. The team trading for his rights will still have to make a good offer.

No team is going to trade for his rights unless they know Vancouver is going to send him down. And Vancouver won't send him down unless he's going to a team that will help his development. Therefore they would have to communicate with a team they'd be interested in him going to.

If it's a choice of getting a key piece for their playoff run or getting nothing for his rights, Calgary would be dumb not to trade him.

[messier's_elbow]

4 hours ago, 87Crosby said:

 

No words. 

That's disgusting. I'm never buying the province ever again.

[WHL rocks]

Makes sense to bring JV back to the Canucks for a while before making a decision on sending him to juniors. He probably feels pretty down right now after the tourney he had, so wouldn't be productive to send him straight down. Let him earn another NHL paycheck, get to play some NHL games and be around his teammates in an NHL locker room.

Wouldn't be surprised to learn if JB's been on the phone talking to likes of Kelowna or Everett in an attempt to facilitate a trade out of Calgary. 

The Jan 10 date to make a decision on JV for rest of the year is the same day as WHL trade deadline. I think a trade will be facilitated and JV will go down. It's the best thing for everyone involved including the HItmen, Canucks,JV and Canucks fans because JV will be a better player due to this.

[MoneypuckOverlord]

On 2015-12-28 at 9:28 PM, messier's_elbow said:

On 2015-12-29 at 7:47 PM, Wild Sean Monahan said:

9 minutes ago, WHL rocks said:

Makes sense to bring JV back to the Canucks for a while before making a decision on sending him to juniors. He probably feels pretty down right now after the tourney he had, so wouldn't be productive to send him straight down. Let him earn another NHL paycheck, get to play some NHL games and be around his teammates in an NHL locker room.

Wouldn't be surprised to learn if JB's been on the phone talking to likes of Kelowna or Everett in an attempt to facilitate a trade out of Calgary. 

The Jan 10 date to make a decision on JV for rest of the year is the same day as WHL trade deadline. I think a trade will be facilitated and JV will go down. It's the best thing for everyone involved including the HItmen, Canucks,JV and Canucks fans because JV will be a better player due to this.

 

 

JIm Benning has no business asking whl teams to facilitate trades, nor will he.  Makes us look bad, and he won't do it.

[DeNiro]

8 minutes ago, MoneypuckOverlord said:

JIm Benning has no business asking whl teams to facilitate trades, nor will he.  Makes us look bad, and he won't do it.

He already did do it. Mackenzie Stewart's rights were traded right before he was sent down. Same thing was done with Leon Draisaitl.

It doesn't make anyone look bad. Why would a team wanna send a young player down if they don't think it's a good fit for them? (good linemates, top ice time, good coaching etc.)

It's good for all parties involved. Calgary gets something for a player that wasn't even going to play for them. The team that trades for him gets a 19 year old player that can help them on a Memorial cup run. And the Canucks get the benefit of having Jake on a team that will better help his development.

If Virtanen played for the Knights, I honestly think he would have been sent down after his 9 games. I think it really came down to whether sending him back to Calgary specifically was better for his development, rather than it being about playing in junior.

Edited January 4, 2016 by DeNiro

[babych]

1 hour ago, Fanuck said:

It's common knowledge that McTavish did this exact thing for Draisaitl and it seems to have worked out very well for his development. 

Obviously each situation is unique,  but there are some strong similarities between the two. 

Here's the thing - somebody saying it and tons of people quoting it constitutes "common knowledge". I'm asking for proof that it actually happened. These are very two different things.

Did Draisatl get sent back down and then subsequently traded? Yes. Was this ultimately good for his development? Also yes.

Did MacT force a trade to a specific team to make this happen? Just pure speculation on CDC's part and taken as fact.

 

Is this actually fact? No one has yet cited a source but many claim "common knowledge" to prove a point.

 

I would love to see an actual source to back up that this went down the way so many posters on here claim it did. But I won't hold my breath.

[babych]

1 hour ago, DeNiro said:

Calgary doesn't have to make the deal. The team trading for his rights will still have to make a good offer.

No team is going to trade for his rights unless they know Vancouver is going to send him down. And Vancouver won't send him down unless he's going to a team that will help his development. Therefore they would have to communicate with a team they'd be interested in him going to.

If it's a choice of getting a key piece for their playoff run or getting nothing for his rights, Calgary would be dumb not to trade him.

None of what you are saying contradicts what I was saying.

I was merely questioning your original position that GM JB could somehow force a trade to another WHL team. You seem to be agreeing with me that he can't...

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, babych said:

None of what you are saying contradicts what I was saying.

I was merely questioning your original position that GM JB could somehow force a trade to another WHL team. You seem to be agreeing with me that he can't...

Was there not someone who said that JB was involved in the Mackenzie trade, to get him closer?

[Crabcakes]

18 minutes ago, WHL rocks said:

Makes sense to bring JV back to the Canucks for a while before making a decision on sending him to juniors. He probably feels pretty down right now after the tourney he had, so wouldn't be productive to send him straight down. Let him earn another NHL paycheck, get to play some NHL games and be around his teammates in an NHL locker room.

Wouldn't be surprised to learn if JB's been on the phone talking to likes of Kelowna or Everett in an attempt to facilitate a trade out of Calgary. 

The Jan 10 date to make a decision on JV for rest of the year is the same day as WHL trade deadline. I think a trade will be facilitated and JV will go down. It's the best thing for everyone involved including the HItmen, Canucks,JV and Canucks fans because JV will be a better player due to this.

This.  Just listened to Willies post practice presser and he basically said this.

They have planned on doing mid season reviews on McCann and Virtanen (maybe they do it for the whole team, wouldn't surprise me....would be a good idea heading towards the trade deadline etc).  

We know that they have decided to manage McCanns time more closely and this is based on how things have been going for him the last month or so.  He'll be getting fewer starts, more training, watching NHL games and learning about NHL play etc.

With Virtanen, they're going to wait until he gets back to Van, suss out his state of mind, what he thinks etc and how he plays and practices and figure out a plan for him for the rest of the season.  Obviously, this can mean all sorts of things and Willie isn't about to list off all the possibilities.