Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW

[LaBamba]

There is not a vast difference in quality of play between Gaunce and Virt at this point. I'd agree that Gaunce at this point is more 'polished' but we're not winning or loosing games having one in over the other.

Gaunce however doesn't bring anything particularly different in his skill set than players we already have on the team, in particular Higgins. We don't currently have available anywhere else on our roster what Virtanen has more of than Gaunce (physicality, speed and shot). He's less polished but more dynamic and less redundant.

Sending Virt back to Jr. also means he's gone for the year and we have one less man of depth available as an organization. Depth is pretty important and it's really, REALLY nice to have guys like Gaunce or Shink available as call ups when we need them rather than less competent players (AKA: plugs). It's also important that Utica has a good team as well.

Then there's the matter of his development. The Hitmen are not a particularly good team, they're usage of Virt in the past has been somewhat questionable and their use of systems is either being poorly taught, poorly implemented, both or barely used at all. Sending him back to that environment to further teach him bad habits and little to no systems/positioning while dominating younger, smaller players is not going to help him develop. If he played for say the London Knights or a similar team, sending him back to Jr. would be a far bigger consideration. As it stands, he's much better off with NHL coaches, team mates, trainers, nutritionists and competition. Depending on how well he does this year and next off season, he may very well spend at least some time in Utica next year but this year he's FAR better off here.

Now if people would just temper their expectations of how he does, this year...

I have no expectations of Jake and frankly, at his age his and with the role he is given, offensive production is irrelevant. I want him to succeed, and I only question his NHL viability out of genuine concern. 

I see you use words like Dynamic very loosely by the way, cute. 

Under no circumstances would ownership or management at any level put the success of Utica above the multimillion dollar operation that is the Vancouver Canucks. Guance is playing in Utica because he is able to play in Utica. If both Guance and Virtanen were able to play in Utica, you can bet Virtanen would be down there. It has absolutely nothing to do with how "Dynamic" he is. Stop kidding yourself and stop fishing for up votes.

Guance has gone through the process best suited for long term success. He and even Shink should both have their much deserved roster spot. They earned it, Instead, Jake Virtanen gets to waltz into the lineup because he is "Too good for Jr"

Absolute BS.

If I was Guance I would punch Jim Benning right between the eyes. This way he would have a legit reason to keep me in Utica.  

[elvis15]

You're on your own there, LaBamba.

Certainly dynamic might mean something to you but that makes me think of Jake's speed, hitting and even him driving to the net with the puck. Gaunce is capable of similar things and more that he has as an advantage over Jake, but by no means have he or Shinkaruk proven a "much deserved roster spot" over anyone else.

Gaunce, if playing, would be in a bottom 6 role in the NHL as we've already seen this year, and Shinkaruk won't benefit as much from anything outside the top 6 (or an offensive minded top 9). Virtanen can handle both roles at this point, even if maybe his offence isn't there yet or his overall game isn't as polished. Obviously, not being able to be sent to Utica plays into that, but he's not being rushed to the NHL either the way he's played.

If plays a full season in the NHL this year, would he not have to pass through waivers to play for the Comets next year? Or is he protected by his ELC? Or I might be confusing this with games played and rookie status...

That's not how waivers work. There are two criteria for players, years since signing their first contract and NHL games played.

Virtanen, for instance was just shy of his 18th birthday when he signed his ELC in 2014. That puts him at 5 years or 160 NHL games of waiver exemption, the latter he'll likely pass sometime in his 3rd NHL season.

Edited November 16, 2015 by elvis15

[Shinkorvat]

I have no expectations of Jake and frankly, at his age his and with the role he is given, offensive production is irrelevant. I want him to succeed, and I only question his NHL viability out of genuine concern. 

I see you use words like Dynamic very loosely by the way, cute. 

Under no circumstances would ownership or management at any level put the success of Utica above the multimillion dollar operation that is the Vancouver Canucks. Guance is playing in Utica because he is able to play in Utica. If both Guance and Virtanen were able to play in Utica, you can bet Virtanen would be down there. It has absolutely nothing to do with how "Dynamic" he is. Stop kidding yourself and stop fishing for up votes.

Guance has gone through the process best suited for long term success. He and even Shink should both have their much deserved roster spot. They earned it, Instead, Jake Virtanen gets to waltz into the lineup because he is "Too good for Jr"

Absolute BS.

If I was Guance I would punch Jim Benning right between the eyes. This way he would have a legit reason to keep me in Utica.  

Who is this "Guance" you speak of? 

[LaBamba]

Oh sorry that's Gaunce you were probably pretty lost reading that 

[aGENT]

I have no expectations of Jake and frankly, at his age his and with the role he is given, offensive production is irrelevant. I want him to succeed, and I only question his NHL viability out of genuine concern. 

I see you use words like Dynamic very loosely by the way, cute. 

Under no circumstances would ownership or management at any level put the success of Utica above the multimillion dollar operation that is the Vancouver Canucks. Guance is playing in Utica because he is able to play in Utica. If both Guance and Virtanen were able to play in Utica, you can bet Virtanen would be down there. It has absolutely nothing to do with how "Dynamic" he is. Stop kidding yourself and stop fishing for up votes.

Guance has gone through the process best suited for long term success. He and even Shink should both have their much deserved roster spot. They earned it, Instead, Jake Virtanen gets to waltz into the lineup because he is "Too good for Jr"

Absolute BS.

If I was Guance I would punch Jim Benning right between the eyes. This way he would have a legit reason to keep me in Utica.  

Not loosely at all. Virt's a more dynamic player than Gaunce. That's why he was drafted higher than him, that's why he'll likely be a better overall player than him and that's one of the multiple reasons he's playing here instead of Gaunce.

Gaunce is many things... safe, sturdy, dependable, smart etc. But 'dynamic' is not a word often associated with him. That's fine, teams need guys like him too and he's GREAT at what he does. But he does not have Virt's speed, physicality or shot and they're otherwise largely a draw in a bottom 6 role. 

Who said anything about putting Utica ahead of the Canucks? You're straw man tangent-ing again. It is however in the Canucks best interests to have a good team in Utica given a lot of those Comets will be future Canucks and it's important to learn how to win at every level. You know, development. It's also great for having capable call-ups when injuries hit.

I could give a rats arse about upvotes.

Gaunce will get his chance soon enough when Higgins is almost surely moved. If not this year, next. Virtanen didn't waltz in to anything, he basically played to a draw with Gaunce and gets the spot because... pay attention here, he's less redundant, more dynamic, provides greater organizational depth and it's better for his development.

I'll just ignore your irrelevant and childish paragraph for hopefully obvious reasons.

[Canorth]

Virtanen, for instance was just shy of his 18th birthday when he signed his ELC in 2014. That puts him at 5 years or 160 NHL games of waiver exemption, the latter he'll likely pass sometime in his 3rd NHL season.

Thnx for clearing that up. I thought it had to do with # of NHL games played but I assumed it was a lot less for some reason. 

[mll]

[...]

Virtanen, for instance was just shy of his 18th birthday when he signed his ELC in 2014. That puts him at 5 years or 160 NHL games of waiver exemption, the latter he'll likely pass sometime in his 3rd NHL season.

In fact he lost a year of waiver exemption this year - it's after 3 years of pro hockey and 11 NHL games count as one year for players under age 20.  So he is waiver eligible at the latest in 2018/19 - 4 years after signing and no longer 5 years - or earlier if he reaches the 160 NHL game mark before.  

[Ihatetomatoes]

Not loosely at all. Virt's a more dynamic player than Gaunce. That's why he was drafted higher than him, that's why he'll likely be a better overall player than him and that's one of the multiple reasons he's playing here instead of Gaunce.

Gaunce is many things... safe, sturdy, dependable, smart etc. But 'dynamic' is not a word often associated with him. That's fine, teams need guys like him too and he's GREAT at what he does. But he does not have Virt's speed, physicality or shot and they're otherwise largely a draw in a bottom 6 role. 

Who said anything about putting Utica ahead of the Canucks? You're straw man tangent-ing again. It is however in the Canucks best interests to have a good team in Utica given a lot of those Comets will be future Canucks and it's important to learn how to win at every level. You know, development. It's also great for having capable call-ups when injuries hit.

I could give a rats arse about upvotes.

Gaunce will get his chance soon enough when Higgins is almost surely moved. If not this year, next. Virtanen didn't waltz in to anything, he basically played to a draw with Gaunce and gets the spot because... pay attention here, he's less redundant, more dynamic, provides greater organizational depth and it's better for his development.

I'll just ignore your irrelevant and childish paragraph for hopefully obvious reasons.

there is now way you could have watched the pre-season and came to the conclusion that Virtanen earned a spot over Gaunce, Gaunce outplayed him in all aspects of the ice except hitting. The only reason Virtanen is here over Gaunce is because he has to go to juniors. 

[aGENT]

there is now way you could have watched the pre-season and came to the conclusion that Virtanen earned a spot over Gaunce, Gaunce outplayed him in all aspects of the ice except hitting. The only reason Virtanen is here over Gaunce is because he has to go to juniors. 

It's one of the reasons, it's not the only one

[Edlerberry]

He has but let's look at it thru Down Unda's eyes:

 

- Took a horrible penalty that showed his lack of hockey IQ;

- Didn't do much outside of some far out shots, some average passes, and some useless hits.  Jared McCann (a real (prospect) on the other hand had some nice shots, nice passes, and a nice hit.

- Any good play by Virtanen doesn't count because Buffalo is a bad team.  Call me when he dangles Shea Weber and scores on Patrick Roy.

Think that should cover it.

gosh he has such stone hands though. 3rd liners have more finesse. chipchura was a touted 1st rounder too.

[Ihatetomatoes]

It's one of the reasons, it's not the only one

ticket sales is another 

[guntrix]

ticket sales is another 

That and maybe his piercing blue eyes? 

It wasn't his play on the ice as much as JV apologists want to believe.

[elvis15]

Thnx for clearing that up. I thought it had to do with # of NHL games played but I assumed it was a lot less for some reason. 

Yup, there's a good chart (as well as further explanation) here: http://www.litterboxcats.com/2013/10/7/4792782/nhl-waiver-waivers-cba-florida-panthers

In fact he lost a year of waiver exemption this year - it's after 3 years of pro hockey and 11 NHL games count as one year for players under age 20.  So he is waiver eligible at the latest in 2018/19 - 4 years after signing and no longer 5 years - or earlier if he reaches the 160 NHL game mark before.  

Since he signed last summer he's already used a year, but that is a wrinkle I left out for simplicty. That's the wrinkle that got Corrado to waiver status this year instead of next (accounting for pro-ration) when he played 7 games in the lockout season. Barring injury or being sent down to the Comets in following seasons, he'll reach that 160 game mark first in any event.

[LaBamba]

there is now way you could have watched the pre-season and came to the conclusion that Virtanen earned a spot over Gaunce, Gaunce outplayed him in all aspects of the ice except hitting. The only reason Virtanen is here over Gaunce is because he has to go to juniors. 

finally someone else who isn't blinded by the BS. 

Virtanen did not earn his spot on this team, he is here for technical reasons only. 

So Dynamic tho. 

[elvis15]

there is now way you could have watched the pre-season and came to the conclusion that Virtanen earned a spot over Gaunce, Gaunce outplayed him in all aspects of the ice except hitting. The only reason Virtanen is here over Gaunce is because he has to go to juniors. 

You also have to consider the role they'd be in and what opportunity there was on the team. Gaunce was competing with other bottom 6 players and we already had Burrows, Hansen, Prust and Dorsett in those roles. Add to that McCann came out of camp playing very well and keeping Cracknell up and there was only really the 3rd line center role left. Maybe you can move Burrows up with the Sedins (or now we've seen Hansen back there) but Virtanen could move between the top and bottom 6 so there was more opportunity for him.

Maybe Virtanen being CHL or NHL only was the final factor, but it was by no means a given before that Gaunce should be the one staying.

[Gstank29]

The problem i have is that the last 5 or so games he hasn't progressed at all. Maybe he is still feeling the effects of that fight but for a young player I would like to see some kind of progression though a 5 game sample.

 

Mind you Horvat had a similar type of progression last year so maybe he just needs to get back to Vancouver so he can work on his individual skill set more

[elvis15]

We have been on a road trip the last little while so he might be adjusting to that as well. McCann had been noted as saying they didn't have anything like this in Junior, and even with the difference in WHL travel Virtanen wouldn't have either.

I'm not that worried. If he hasn't picked up a little bit in the second half then we might have more cause for concern, but for now it's not anything major.

[Delta76]

I'm not going to worry about Virtanen yet. It is a little concerning to see that he seemed to be progressing nicely before the fight and seems to have stalled now but stuff like this happens.

Like mentioned above it could just be the road trip or he might start to pick it up in the 2nd half of the season, akin to Horvat. If he is showing a lack of development and still making the mistakes he is making down around the 40/50 game mark then we have cause for concern but there is no sense in panicking now. 

One thing that I do find moderately concerning is I haven't seen the wrist shot that was so great in his draft year yet. He always seems to miss the net or shoot it at the goalie, but patience. 

Edit: Something to add is he seemed to be playing very well with Sutter, his game is all about gaining speed on the wing, getting hit with a pass and entering and Sutter seemed to do well to get him the puck when he was up to speed. I've noticed now that his line mates seem to either elect not to pass it to him or give it to him at a standstill which makes it harder for him to enter the zone.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Delta76

[DeNiro]

Anyone still think it wouldn't be a good idea to loan him to team Canada?

It seems to me like he's regressing. 

Edited November 17, 2015 by DeNiro

[Coconuts]

Anyone still think it wouldn't be a good idea to loan him to team Canada?

It seems to me like he's regressing. 

At this point I don't see why not, we've got forwards to fill in and it's not as if he couldn't learn from the tournament. He could probably use a boost.