Alflives Posted December 27, 2016 Share Posted December 27, 2016 2 minutes ago, Ihatetomatoes said: Jaime Benn Voracek Lucic Simmonds Hartnell Perry All guys around Jakes size that put up decent numbers within their draft +3 years A few guys like Kreider, Backes or Ladd took a while to develop but there are plenty of power forwards that do just fine within their draft +3 seasons. Just as many small guys have the exact same development curves. Also Ritchie being on a team that is far better is more of a testiment to his quality level of a player that he can make the team and contribute vs not being able to make a bad team and contribute. Why do you hate tomatoes, and did you hate Mike Gillis, because that guy looked like Mr. Tomato head for sure? Im down on JV too. Looking at what Ehlers is doing has to make people question Benning, doesn't it? I mean how long do we wait for this kid to "get it"? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesB Posted December 27, 2016 Share Posted December 27, 2016 8 hours ago, mll said: Virtanen doesn't seem to have a mentor - he has role models to observe but no specific mentor. It sounds like he needs some maturing to do and having someone that can keep him in check could be useful. The reasons you mention is why he could use one. He is also famous, making a lot of money and there are a lot of distractions. A mentor can help to not get caught in all that. Other teams have their younger players initially live with a vet - keep an eye on them but also make them understand early on the discipline it takes to be a pro. Also, if he had a mentor you would think he would address his frustrations with him instead of voicing them to the media and he would have helped him get some perspective. This is Shanahan in the Player's Tribune and why the Leafs believe in mentorship: http://www.theplayerstribune.com/mailbag-brendan-shanahan/ .... Nice post. I learned something about mentorship from it. Certainly Shanahan makes some good points. And I am not saying mentorship is irrelevant. I think that good teams should try to set up mentoring as the Leafs apparently have. Maybe the Canucks have fallen behind on that dimension (after all Benning thought Prust was a "culture carrier"). So I certainly agree that teams should try to have effective mentoring. I just don't think you can expect too much. I am pretty sure that a guy like Shanahan was going to be successful with a mentor or not. Same with the Sedins and same with Horvat. But I agree that there probably are guys who are impressionable enough that a good mentor can be the difference between building a solid career and falling off the rails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rush17 Posted December 27, 2016 Share Posted December 27, 2016 jake score yet? jk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rush17 Posted December 27, 2016 Share Posted December 27, 2016 when is the next game for utica? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted December 27, 2016 Share Posted December 27, 2016 47 minutes ago, Ihatetomatoes said: Jaime Benn Voracek Lucic Simmonds Hartnell Perry All guys around Jakes size that put up decent numbers within their draft +3 years A few guys like Kreider, Backes or Ladd took a while to develop but there are plenty of power forwards that do just fine within their draft +3 seasons. Just as many small guys have the exact same development curves. Also Ritchie being on a team that is far better is more of a testiment to his quality level of a player that he can make the team and contribute vs not being able to make a bad team and contribute. Man I wish we'd picked Benn he definitely 'got it' and got it early. Voracek largely did as well (to a slightly lesser extent). Lucic put up 'only' 27 points in his draft +2 year and would be a prime example of what I'm talking about. He had a decent year in his draft +3 putting up 42, then had a bit of injury issues/regression and only put up 20 (33 point pace) in his +4 year and finally broke through at 22 going on 23 years old in his +5 year. Simmonds, again... 23, 40, 30, 49, 32 and finally broke through to 60 points at 25 going on 26. Hartnell did fairly well but still had just a 16 point season to start, a few decent 30-50 point seasons and didn't break 60 until he was 26. Perry had 25 points and split time in the AHL his first NHL season at draft +3, had a couple decent 'middle 6' scoring level years and then had a good then great season at 22 and 23 years old respectively. And these are largely the 'better' examples you came up with. Are you not seeing a trend here? As for Ritchie, yes, by all means some of it should certainly be credit to him for doing the work and for performing when given the opportunity but he's also VERY insulated behind all the Getlaf, Perry, Vermette, Kesler etc. Virtanen didn't exactly have a lot of help with the heavy lifting of being the skilled, big/physical guy in the top 9 on the Canucks. And still, Ritchie's on pace for a 30 points. That's decent, but again it's not like these guys are all stepping in to top 6 roles/scoring rates at 19. He had a whopping 4 points in 33 games last season (10 point pace). Virtanen last year had 13 in 55 (19 point pace) on a FAR inferior team. Now clearly he's regressed a bit this year due to whatever reasons (injury? maturity? needing and not initially getting extra coaching and practice time initially?) but IMO, it's FAR too early to start panicking. Again, if he hasn't progressed by next year and the year following, we certainly have more cause for concern. As of right now, if he can get back on track (as he appeared to be doing in Utica) there's very little cause for concern IMO. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ihatetomatoes Posted December 27, 2016 Share Posted December 27, 2016 14 minutes ago, J.R. said: Man I wish we'd picked Benn he definitely 'got it' and got it early. Voracek largely did as well (to a slightly lesser extent). Lucic put up 'only' 27 points in his draft +2 year and would be a prime example of what I'm talking about. He had a decent year in his draft +3 putting up 42, then had a bit of injury issues/regression and only put up 20 (33 point pace) in his +4 year and finally broke through at 22 going on 23 years old in his +5 year. Simmonds, again... 23, 40, 30, 49, 32 and finally broke through to 60 points at 25 going on 26. Hartnell did fairly well but still had just a 16 point season to start, a few decent 30-50 point seasons and didn't break 60 until he was 26. Perry had 25 points and split time in the AHL his first NHL season at draft +3, had a couple decent 'middle 6' scoring level years and then had a good then great season at 22 and 23 years old respectively. And these are largely the 'better' examples you came up with. Are you not seeing a trend here? As for Ritchie, yes, by all means some of it should certainly be credit to him for doing the work and for performing when given the opportunity but he's also VERY insulated behind all the Getlaf, Perry, Vermette, Kesler etc. Virtanen didn't exactly have a lot of help with the heavy lifting of being the skilled, big/physical guy in the top 9 on the Canucks. And still, Ritchie's on pace for a 30 points. That's decent, but again it's not like these guys are all stepping in to top 6 roles/scoring rates at 19. He had a whopping 4 points in 33 games last season (10 point pace). Virtanen last year had 13 in 55 (19 point pace) on a FAR inferior team. Now clearly he's regressed a bit this year due to whatever reasons (injury? maturity? needing and not initially getting extra coaching and practice time initially?) but IMO, it's FAR too early to start panicking. Again, if he hasn't progressed by next year and the year following, we certainly have more cause for concern. As of right now, if he can get back on track (as he appeared to be doing in Utica) there's very little cause for concern IMO. Going by your metrics most guys only break out at that 23-26 year old seasons if we're looking at reaching their ultimate potentials. Ignoring the absolute elite that come into the league and dominate. The Crosby's, Malkins, Ovechkins and so on most guys will take a year or so post draft in the minors then 2-3 seasons in the NHL to "break out". Just looking at the top scorers this year and avoiding #1 overall picks. Tarasenko - Draft +4 40pts. +5 70pts Panarin - Well he took an abnormal route Voracek - Talked about him, did quite well. Atkinson - Took til his draft +5 to put up 20 goals and only is breaking out at 27 Kessel - Did well and put up 40 goals in his draft +3 Seguin - Did well in draft +2 but he's basically another 1st overall pick Pavelski - Took til draft +5 to put up 25 goals. Took til draft +7 to put up over 60pts Draisatl - In his draft +3 and is "breaking out" for a big guy. Could be considered another PF Scheifele - 23 years old and breaking out now Giroux - Took til draft +4 to really break out Looking at all these guys I really don't see any difference between PF type guys and small guys. Some come into the league and do well right away. Kessel, Seguin Voracek, Drasaitl for example. Yet some guys take a while to hit their primes regardless of size. Tarasenko, Atkinson, Pavelski, Scheifele, Giroux. Are you not seeing a trend here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted December 27, 2016 Share Posted December 27, 2016 2 minutes ago, Ihatetomatoes said: Going by your metrics most guys only break out at that 23-26 year old seasons if we're looking at reaching their ultimate potentials. Ignoring the absolute elite that come into the league and dominate. The Crosby's, Malkins, Ovechkins and so on most guys will take a year or so post draft in the minors then 2-3 seasons in the NHL to "break out". Just looking at the top scorers this year and avoiding #1 overall picks. Tarasenko - Draft +4 40pts. +5 70pts Panarin - Well he took an abnormal route Voracek - Talked about him, did quite well. Atkinson - Took til his draft +5 to put up 20 goals and only is breaking out at 27 Kessel - Did well and put up 40 goals in his draft +3 Seguin - Did well in draft +2 but he's basically another 1st overall pick Pavelski - Took til draft +5 to put up 25 goals. Took til draft +7 to put up over 60pts Draisatl - In his draft +3 and is "breaking out" for a big guy. Could be considered another PF Scheifele - 23 years old and breaking out now Giroux - Took til draft +4 to really break out Looking at all these guys I really don't see any difference between PF type guys and small guys. Some come into the league and do well right away. Kessel, Seguin Voracek, Drasaitl for example. Yet some guys take a while to hit their primes regardless of size. Tarasenko, Atkinson, Pavelski, Scheifele, Giroux. Are you not seeing a trend here? Still no reason to panic then, is there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saucypass Posted December 27, 2016 Share Posted December 27, 2016 34 minutes ago, J.R. said: Man I wish we'd picked Benn he definitely 'got it' and got it early. Voracek largely did as well (to a slightly lesser extent). Lucic put up 'only' 27 points in his draft +2 year and would be a prime example of what I'm talking about. He had a decent year in his draft +3 putting up 42, then had a bit of injury issues/regression and only put up 20 (33 point pace) in his +4 year and finally broke through at 22 going on 23 years old in his +5 year. Simmonds, again... 23, 40, 30, 49, 32 and finally broke through to 60 points at 25 going on 26. Hartnell did fairly well but still had just a 16 point season to start, a few decent 30-50 point seasons and didn't break 60 until he was 26. Perry had 25 points and split time in the AHL his first NHL season at draft +3, had a couple decent 'middle 6' scoring level years and then had a good then great season at 22 and 23 years old respectively. And these are largely the 'better' examples you came up with. Are you not seeing a trend here? As for Ritchie, yes, by all means some of it should certainly be credit to him for doing the work and for performing when given the opportunity but he's also VERY insulated behind all the Getlaf, Perry, Vermette, Kesler etc. Virtanen didn't exactly have a lot of help with the heavy lifting of being the skilled, big/physical guy in the top 9 on the Canucks. And still, Ritchie's on pace for a 30 points. That's decent, but again it's not like these guys are all stepping in to top 6 roles/scoring rates at 19. He had a whopping 4 points in 33 games last season (10 point pace). Virtanen last year had 13 in 55 (19 point pace) on a FAR inferior team. Now clearly he's regressed a bit this year due to whatever reasons (injury? maturity? needing and not initially getting extra coaching and practice time initially?) but IMO, it's FAR too early to start panicking. Again, if he hasn't progressed by next year and the year following, we certainly have more cause for concern. As of right now, if he can get back on track (as he appeared to be doing in Utica) there's very little cause for concern IMO. Well actually most of the examples listed have shown that by your +3 draft year like Jake is in now, you should show SOMETHING. Like you said, Benn and Voracek did great right off the bat. No doubt about that. Lucic at 42 points would make a HUGE difference to our club and to any for that matter. Simmonds at 40 points also a big difference. Hartnell by his +2 year his 41 points. Perry by +3 draft year 36 point pace. What these examples means is that these powerforwards were able to score at around a point every other game by their +3 years or earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted December 27, 2016 Share Posted December 27, 2016 Just now, suitup said: Well actually most of the examples listed have shown that by your +3 draft year like Jake is in now, you should show SOMETHING. Like you said, Benn and Voracek did great right off the bat. No doubt about that. Lucic at 42 points would make a HUGE difference to our club and to any for that matter. Simmonds at 40 points also a big difference. Hartnell by his +2 year his 41 points. Perry by +3 draft year 36 point pace. What these examples means is that these powerforwards were able to score at around a point every other game by their +3 years or earlier. They're also some of the better/higher scoring PWF's in the game today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saucypass Posted December 27, 2016 Share Posted December 27, 2016 (edited) 3 minutes ago, J.R. said: They're also some of the better/higher scoring PWF's in the game today. I'm confused. So then what kind of PWF are you hoping Jake to become? One of the not better/higher scoring PWF in the game? Edited December 27, 2016 by suitup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted December 27, 2016 Share Posted December 27, 2016 (edited) 2 minutes ago, suitup said: So then what kind of PWF are you hoping Jake to become? One of the not better/higher scoring PWF in the game? I'm hoping he can be a 40+ point guy who can bring an intimidating speed/physicality game on top of being a complimentary scorer, likely on the 2nd line, in his prime. Any more than that is gravy IMO. Edited December 27, 2016 by J.R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken kaniff Posted December 27, 2016 Share Posted December 27, 2016 I can see Jake turning out to be a Chris Kreider or Dustin Brown type. I don't see him as a premier power forward anymore. Maybe just a 20G scorer that can hit like a truck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ihatetomatoes Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 23 minutes ago, J.R. said: I'm hoping he can be a 40+ point guy who can bring an intimidating speed/physicality game on top of being a complimentary scorer, likely on the 2nd line, in his prime. Any more than that is gravy IMO. We're all hoping for anything resembling an NHL player at this point but this power forwards take longer to develop excuse needs to die. Right now he's just not looking like the guy of guy willing to put in the work to be an NHL player. Let's hope this changes and he gets back on track. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EternalCanuckFan Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 39 minutes ago, ken kaniff said: I can see Jake turning out to be a Chris Kreider or Dustin Brown type. I don't see him as a premier power forward anymore. Maybe just a 20G scorer that can hit like a truck This is what I saw him as from the start. If he can get to that level, I think we can call him a success. Not what one hopes for from a top 6 pick, but those are impact players in one way or another. Hopefully Boeser will be the major point producer. Virtanen can still improve beyond this but I wouldn't be too disappointed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saucypass Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 (edited) 41 minutes ago, J.R. said: I'm hoping he can be a 40+ point guy who can bring an intimidating speed/physicality game on top of being a complimentary scorer, likely on the 2nd line, in his prime. Any more than that is gravy IMO. So then who would that be? Would Marcus Johansson, Dylan Larkin, Lee Stempniak, Mika Zibanejad, Martin Hanzal, Bryan Little, and Travis Zajac be good examples? Production at draft year to +3 draft year Zajac 42pts at +2 Little 51pts over 79 at +3 Hanzal 35pts over 72 at +3 Zibanejad 20pts over 42 at +2 and 33pts over 69 at +3 both 39 point pace Stempniak 27pts over 57 at +3 which is a 38 point pace Larkin - you already know All near around 40+ points by their +3 draft year. At 6th overall I'm hoping for a whole lot of gravy Edited December 28, 2016 by suitup 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 2 minutes ago, suitup said: So then who would that be? Would Marcus Johansson, Dylan Larkin, Lee Stempniak, Mika Zibanejad, Martin Hanzal, Bryan Little, and Travis Zajac be good examples? Production at draft year to +3 draft year Zajac 42pts at +2 Little 51pts over 79 at +3 Hanzal 35pts over 72 at +3 Zibanejad 20pts over 42 at +2 and 33pts over 69 at +3 both 39 point pace Stempniak 27pts over 57 at +3 which is a 38 point pace Larkin - you already know All near around 40+ points by their +3 draft year. At 6th overall I'm hoping for a whole lot of gravy You need one of JB's special blue and green Koolaide suckers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phat Fingers Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 On December 26, 2016 at 11:07 AM, groovy said: I came on here to get an idea how Jake is doing. Obviously in the wrong place. CoHo, Linden -vs- Horvat... WTF? Its christmas break and we are all taking tagents in the Virtannen thread. Hope Jake takes it easy on the turkey this holidays and finds another gear in Utica post holidays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saucypass Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 (edited) @J.R. Some others to name a few Stafford 27pts over 41 at +3 which is a 54 pt pace then scoring 38pts in 68 games the year after Couturier 39pts over 82 at +3 Frolik 45pts over 79 at +3 Bailey 35pts over 73 at +2 a 40pt pace Okposo (Albeit a top line forward) at 39pts over 65 at +3 a 49pt pace Our very own Horvat 40pts over 82 at +3 E. Kane 43pts over 72 +2 and 57pts over 74 at +3 Franzen 30pts over 69 at +3 a 35pt pace N. Foligno 32pts over 81 at +3 and this is not counting some I might've missed or others I've left out with amazing AHL numbers in their +3 years and/or great numbers in their +4 year. What I'm trying to say is that I don't think PWF's necessarily take longer to develop and is a myth around here that should be debunked. Maybe it's true for some but definitely not always the case. Which is why I don't really like that being used as an excuse for Jake around here. However, I'm also on board on giving him time to see what he can become. Again, I just don't buy into that whole "PWFs take longer" myth. Edited December 28, 2016 by suitup 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Monahan Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 @suitup cherry picking here but Johan Franzen was like 27 in his d+3 year 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saucypass Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 3 minutes ago, Sean Monahan said: @suitup cherry picking here but Johan Franzen was like 27 in his d+3 year Ohhh... really? It says 30 on NHL.com and Wikipedia though? Drafted 2004 and +3 year at 2006-2007 correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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