A time to reflect! (Discussion) (Long read)

[J.I.A.H.N]

When we hired Benning, I don't think he could see what has transpired in the last 24 hours, but I do think he should have been able to evaluate what teams had a better chance of making the playoffs and what team were climbers, and which were fallers.

Benning should have realized coming from Boston, that being at or near the top of the cap is not a good thing if your team is aging and you have RFA's and UFA's to resign in the next year. Benning should have realized that signing Miller was not a good thing and would put us too tight to that cap the following year.

I believe that Benning should have been able to forecast our pro talent level and our prospect talent level and been able to compare that with the rest of the league.

Later on in 2014 - 2015 season, he should have been able to evaluate, that even though we were winning, we were doing it on an aging core, a rookie, and some hot goaltending, as well as those teams that were having bad years because of injuries.

Benning should have came to a conclusion that many of us had and that is a changing of the guard was needed and that a major inclusion of young talent would be needed just to catch up to the Calgary's and Edmonton's.

This does bring us to the first round of this years draft, and although I do not agree with the players Boston chose, Benning should have been able to recognized that the Canucks needed to make those same type of changes, as Edmonton, Boston, Buffalo and the Islanders made and attempted to acquire higher top end picks and prospects.

Reading the Boston HF Boards, they are not really angered at the trades Sweeney made, only the picks he took. Most of the Boston fans recognized that it was needed and changes needed to happen.

Again, we needed to make some of those same changes...you can not be afraid to move top end players or prospects, if what you replace it with makes you stronger. Maybe we could not have gotten into the top ten, but Boston's picks could have been much better, and why they didn't pick Brazal with one of the 3 confuses me.....and a whole lot of Boston fans, evidently.

Our pick at 23 was solid and I have no complaint with it, but "IF" we could have worked our way into a similar position as Boston, or grabbed Edmonton's 16th and 33rd for Hamhuis and Lack, we should have worked it out.

I think you need to accumulate picks if you are declining, and work those picks and your other assets into prime 1st and 2nd line draft prospects, as it is very simple to move/buy the lower 2 lines and # 5,6, 7, 8 defensemen, and so much harder to accumulate high end prospects.

For me it is a pay me now or pay me later scenario, and I would much have preferred,pay now, while our older core had value, next year at the deadline they will have less, and after that they will either walk away free or we will be resigning old, aging talent.

I think Benning has made many mistakes since he has been here, too many for one year, really! But the question for me is who is pulling the strings? Did Aquallini hire a "YES" man?

I am disappointed today, and disappointed with this last year. Was it really worth getting those last 4 points, or even getting into the playoffs this last year.

We seen a lot of moves today, and my call is that those that made the moves are in a better place because of it.

Sure didn't take Boston long to resign McQuaid after lowering their cap, did it? I am sure most of their deals were agreed upon before they resigned him.

PS...........nice job Buffalo and Islanders!

[Wilbur]

If we wanted to retool like Boston did today, then we would've had to make these trades back in, like, 2009.

[Jiggs50]

The owner wants the team to be competitive. Linden and JB have planned to rebuild/re-tool on the fly and keep us in the hunt for the playoffs.

The boys are doing a pretty decent job. People need to chill out and let it all play out before crying. There's still lot's of time.

Buncha whiny babies

[canucktican]

In my opinion, today Boston did what we should have done at the end of 2013 season. Bringing in youth has been lacking from the team for the past few seasons. I so believe that Benning and co have a plan, and some things just aren't going the way they would've liked (eg. Bieksa trade). We have a lot more youth in the system now which is a good thing. The Miller signing is a different story. I hope there are still moves to be made and we get some quality players in the second round.

[FlyLow_]

When we hired Benning, I don't think he could see what has transpired in the last 24 hours, but I do think he should have been able to evaluate what teams had a better chance of making the playoffs and what team were climbers, and which were fallers.

Benning should have realized coming from Boston, that being at or near the top of the cap is not a good thing if your team is aging and you have RFA's and UFA's to resign in the next year. Benning should have realized that signing Miller was not a good thing and would put us too tight to that cap the following year.

I believe that Benning should have been able to forecast our pro talent level and our prospect talent level and been able to compare that with the rest of the league.

Later on in 2014 - 2015 season, he should have been able to evaluate, that even though we were winning, we were doing it on an aging core, a rookie, and some hot goaltending, as well as those teams that were having bad years because of injuries.

Benning should have came to a conclusion that many of us had and that is a changing of the guard was needed and that a major inclusion of young talent would be needed just to catch up to the Calgary's and Edmonton's.

This does bring us to the first round of this years draft, and although I do not agree with the players Boston chose, Benning should have been able to recognized that the Canucks needed to make those same type of changes, as Edmonton, Boston, Buffalo and the Islanders made and attempted to acquire higher top end picks and prospects.

Reading the Boston HF Boards, they are not really angered at the trades Sweeney made, only the picks he took. Most of the Boston fans recognized that it was needed and changes needed to happen.

Again, we needed to make some of those same changes...you can not be afraid to move top end players or prospects, if what you replace it with makes you stronger. Maybe we could not have gotten into the top ten, but Boston's picks could have been much better, and why they didn't pick Brazal with one of the 3 confuses me.....and a whole lot of Boston fans, evidently.

Our pick at 23 was solid and I have no complaint with it, but "IF" we could have worked our way into a similar position as Boston, or grabbed Edmonton's 16th and 33rd for Hamhuis and Lack, we should have worked it out.

I think you need to accumulate picks if you are declining, and work those picks and your other assets into prime 1st and 2nd line draft prospects, as it is very simple to move/buy the lower 2 lines and # 5,6, 7, 8 defensemen, and so much harder to accumulate high end prospects.

For me it is a pay me now or pay me later scenario, and I would much have preferred,pay now, while our older core had value, next year at the deadline they will have less, and after that they will either walk away free or we will be resigning old, aging talent.

I think Benning has made many mistakes since he has been here, too many for one year, really! But the question for me is who is pulling the strings? Did Aquallini hire a "YES" man?

I am disappointed today, and disappointed with this last year. Was it really worth getting those last 4 points, or even getting into the playoffs this last year.

We seen a lot of moves today, and my call is that those that made the moves are in a better place because of it.

Sure didn't take Boston long to resign McQuaid after lowering their cap, did it? I am sure most of their deals were agreed upon before they resigned him.

PS...........nice job Buffalo and Islanders!

We should have blown this up years ago, but I think it's pretty clear by now that ownership is not prepared to take the financial losses they figure they'll take during a true rebuild.

[87Crosby]

You're willing to trade Hamhuis for the 16th? I'd never do that. Without hammer the Canucks defense would be more atrocious than it is now. Arguably our best defender we only make that trade if we're tanking, which the ownership group isn't ready to do.

[PhillipBlunt]

When we hired Benning, I don't think he could see what has transpired in the last 24 hours, but I do think he should have been able to evaluate what teams had a better chance of making the playoffs and what team were climbers, and which were fallers.

Benning should have realized coming from Boston, that being at or near the top of the cap is not a good thing if your team is aging and you have RFA's and UFA's to resign in the next year. Benning should have realized that signing Miller was not a good thing and would put us too tight to that cap the following year.

I believe that Benning should have been able to forecast our pro talent level and our prospect talent level and been able to compare that with the rest of the league.

Later on in 2014 - 2015 season, he should have been able to evaluate, that even though we were winning, we were doing it on an aging core, a rookie, and some hot goaltending, as well as those teams that were having bad years because of injuries.

Benning should have came to a conclusion that many of us had and that is a changing of the guard was needed and that a major inclusion of young talent would be needed just to catch up to the Calgary's and Edmonton's.

This does bring us to the first round of this years draft, and although I do not agree with the players Boston chose, Benning should have been able to recognized that the Canucks needed to make those same type of changes, as Edmonton, Boston, Buffalo and the Islanders made and attempted to acquire higher top end picks and prospects.

Reading the Boston HF Boards, they are not really angered at the trades Sweeney made, only the picks he took. Most of the Boston fans recognized that it was needed and changes needed to happen.

Again, we needed to make some of those same changes...you can not be afraid to move top end players or prospects, if what you replace it with makes you stronger. Maybe we could not have gotten into the top ten, but Boston's picks could have been much better, and why they didn't pick Brazal with one of the 3 confuses me.....and a whole lot of Boston fans, evidently.

Our pick at 23 was solid and I have no complaint with it, but "IF" we could have worked our way into a similar position as Boston, or grabbed Edmonton's 16th and 33rd for Hamhuis and Lack, we should have worked it out.

I think you need to accumulate picks if you are declining, and work those picks and your other assets into prime 1st and 2nd line draft prospects, as it is very simple to move/buy the lower 2 lines and # 5,6, 7, 8 defensemen, and so much harder to accumulate high end prospects.

For me it is a pay me now or pay me later scenario, and I would much have preferred,pay now, while our older core had value, next year at the deadline they will have less, and after that they will either walk away free or we will be resigning old, aging talent.

I think Benning has made many mistakes since he has been here, too many for one year, really! But the question for me is who is pulling the strings? Did Aquallini hire a "YES" man?

I am disappointed today, and disappointed with this last year. Was it really worth getting those last 4 points, or even getting into the playoffs this last year.

We seen a lot of moves today, and my call is that those that made the moves are in a better place because of it.

Sure didn't take Boston long to resign McQuaid after lowering their cap, did it? I am sure most of their deals were agreed upon before they resigned him.

PS...........nice job Buffalo and Islanders!

You had zero impact in Jim "Numbnuts" Benning being hired. You're nothing more than another useless insignificant fanatic who thinks they have some brilliant, unbeknownst way to save this &^@#ed up team from the next 5-7 years of mediocrity.

The Canucks are &^@#ed. They have a president whose primary concern are his fitness clubs. They have a GM who is clueless as to how build a winning team.

[24K PureCool]

JB within 24 hours turns from hero( minus some bitterness) to zero.

[Provost]

We should have blown this up years ago, but I think it's pretty clear by now that ownership is not prepared to take the financial losses they figure they'll take during a true rebuild.

So you are saying that people won't buy tickets to see the games because we would be losing too much... that is the only way the owner loses money during a "true rebuild". He would have a significantly lower salary burden, so if the fans were really ready for a rebuild then he would make more money.

Unfortunately, despite all the wailing and gnashing of teeth here about blowing up the roster, fans have become so jaded by winning, they won't even support the team when it is still above average. That building will be a ghost town if we spend 5 years or so at the bottom of the standings hoping to luck out and draft a couple of generational talents who can "possibly" help us get back into the playoff picture.

[J.I.A.H.N]

PhillipBlunt

You realize you basically said the same thing as me in a few less words, right!

I guess that makes you a...........................too?

Cheers

[J.I.A.H.N]

Provost

I do!

And I am here every day or 2 reading posts...........I been saying the same message all year

But, you really think the Canucks can stay competitive the next 3 years ...............Really?

Really?

[SaintPatrick33]

To compare us to Boston is unrealistic. Who did they give up? A stud young D-man and Lucic. These are assets we simply do not have, and other teams do not rate our players highly. Boston still has a decent core of players remaining as well, so they can afford to move a few pieces here and there.

Lets be realistic about this, NEXT year is when we can truly retool with all the contracts coming off the books. We cant simply have a firesale and then throw the young players to the wolves in a tough western conference, we will end up ruining them like the oilers. Eventually we will draft high enough to land a true stud. This will take time, and another season of watching these veterans play, but I am ok with that because I know next year is the one im waiting for the real change.

I give Benning an A for scouting and development, and a D for contracts. Granted he is only a year into his job, so after 3 years is where I will reserve judgement for this team.

[JamesB]

The owner wants the team to be competitive. Linden and JB have planned to rebuild/re-tool on the fly and keep us in the hunt for the playoffs.

The boys are doing a pretty decent job. People need to chill out and let it all play out before crying. There's still lot's of time.

Buncha whiny babies

You can "plan" to re-tool on the fly and stay in the playoffs, just like you can "plan" to skip work regularly and still get salary increases. It is not likely to work.

If you look at the data, it just doesn't happen. Every Stanley Cup finalist is built around two or three exceptional players and those players are almost always high draft picks. The one big exception was Detroit, built around Lidstrom (3rd round), Datsyuk (6th round) and Zetterberg (7th round). But with all the effort and all the science and analysis that goes into the draft now it is less and less likely that future stars will slip far down the draft.

So I agree with the OP. If the Canucks just continue trying to make the playoffs that is a recipe for being mediocre for a couple more year. And the crash will come when the Sedins either retire or suffer significant additional age-related decline.

I would rather bite the bullet now, although it is too late for this draft.

[BlackRedYellow]

Are you guys for real!?

These comments are exactly like the ones from one year ago. "Management sucks!" "We won't make the playoff! Yada yada yada..."

Still, our future looks brighter than for a long time. We've got a good group of young guys competing for ice time in the next 2-3 years.

Nothing happens over a night...and still... we finished 8th last season... 8th!!!!! What says we can't do that again!?

Chill a little and have some faith.

[jmahyoung]

Does it make you feel any better? Every team had to give up something in order to get something back.

Boston had to give up and awesome young defender Dougie Hamilton to get 3 picks.

Calgary had to give up 3 1-2 round picks (3 young prospects really) to get said defender.

LA had to give up 13th overall for Lucic

Boston had to give up their playoff hopes and dreams for awhile.

If these teams had stood still they would still have those assets instead of losing them. Staying put means we kept our prospects.

[mpt]

The teams that made deals today offered much more quality than the Canucks could offer. You can't win every trade when other teams have what people want more.

[Nuxfanabroad]

The talking heads on Sportsnet..it was Doug MacLean & some generic host-flunky, perhaps back in January/Feb, when Miller was so hot...

Guy asked: "So Doug, was signing Miller the best thing JB has done, so far in his tenure?"..Of course, it came off as rhetoric, & DM was nodding enthusiastically.

Both media & fanbase can get so 'in the moment' & appear clueless to the bigger pic(forest for the trees, crap).

This bugs me because where we now stand, going forward, it's quite possibly the stupidest F***ing move he's made-& there HAVE been a few, to make one mull deeply.

We needed to transition(sell) 2 or 3 times, (counting Lu/Kes) as the first. Not just ONE, big bold sell-off. You collect a bunch of assets, & keep recycling. Don't be shy. Guys like Sbisa, Vey & Bonino currently seem a bridge to nowhere. We could've used them for three 2nd's, & signed these kind of depth guys, or got similar pieces on waivers.

Take Bonino...PLEASE, take Bones(as the ol' wife joke went). Sick of hearing about his 1.9 mill, for an all star in Oct/Nov. Flip him for a 2nd, if he's such a gem-price. Don't get Vey in the first place. There's TWO MORE SECONDS-right there..what we're scurrying around, presently scrounging for. Just had to retain Schreds & Santo-what a waste!

They're serving up mediocrity, while stumbling along the edge of the cap-cliff. Which is worse, JB conceived these moves on his own, or was given hard instruction on where to turn, stop, etc..?

[Nuxfanabroad]

Comparisons are educational, if they are apt, & one compares the important aspects.

For example, after losing to the Ducks(2008?), I've seen a lot of similarity between ours' & Ottawa's peaks & valleys.

Another that springs to mind(sadly) is TO in 2009. Burke just hit town, & loudly proclaimed THAT market had no patience for rebuilds. Here they are 6 years on, entering that dark jungle with a dull machete.

That's a prime example(the best one ever?) of what not to do, as your squad is about to plummet. Trade the next 2 1st's for Chubby? What a disaster! But then I hear JB lamenting on 1040 how he tried hard to obtain surly, ugly Lucic.

We're getting CLOSE to the ugly 6 yrs Hogtown has just endured. JB played(indirectly) a part there..I sure hope he was paying attention.

For his full yr to now, I'd give him a C-.

It was the MG leftovers that mostly salvaged our season.

Lastly.." No patience for rebuilds"? Good Gawd! How many dozen fans attend sunbelt games! Who's worried about this? Might we upset the league's Cdn-sponsored welfare-scheme? Give me a huge break with that!

[Jiggs50]

You can "plan" to re-tool on the fly and stay in the playoffs, just like you can "plan" to skip work regularly and still get salary increases. It is not likely to work.

If you look at the data, it just doesn't happen. Every Stanley Cup finalist is built around two or three exceptional players and those players are almost always high draft picks. The one big exception was Detroit, built around Lidstrom (3rd round), Datsyuk (6th round) and Zetterberg (7th round). But with all the effort and all the science and analysis that goes into the draft now it is less and less likely that future stars will slip far down the draft.

So I agree with the OP. If the Canucks just continue trying to make the playoffs that is a recipe for being mediocre for a couple more year. And the crash will come when the Sedins either retire or suffer significant additional age-related decline.

I would rather bite the bullet now, although it is too late for this draft.

Your right about what team's make the finals. But the Canucks are in a rare case. Actually it's quite similar to Detroit.

The Sedins can still anchor a decent top line and we got guys like Horvat, Baertschi, Virtanen, Kassian etc coming in.

Imo we won't end up like Calgary or Edmonton because we have already been stockpiling picks and prospects. The Canucks aren't in as bad of shape as people make it out to be.

[mpt]

Comparisons are educational, if they are apt, & one compares the important aspects.

For example, after losing to the Ducks(2008?), I've seen a lot of similarity between ours' & Ottawa's peaks & valleys.

Another that springs to mind(sadly) is TO in 2009. Burke just hit town, & loudly proclaimed THAT market had no patience for rebuilds. Here they are 6 years on, entering that dark jungle with a dull machete.

That's a prime example(the best one ever?) of what not to do, as your squad is about to plummet. Trade the next 2 1st's for Chubby? What a disaster! But then I hear JB lamenting on 1040 how he tried hard to obtain surly, ugly Lucic.

We're getting CLOSE to the ugly 6 yrs Hogtown has just endured. JB played(indirectly) a part there..I sure hope he was paying attention.

For his full yr to now, I'd give him a C-.

It was the MG leftovers that mostly salvaged our season.

Lastly.." No patience for rebuilds"? Good Gawd! How many dozen fans attend sunbelt games! Who's worried about this? Might we upset the league's Cdn-sponsored welfare-scheme? Give me a huge break with that!

The season may have been salvaged from MGs leftovers but we have many more prospects and youth coming into our system. He's done a pretty good job so far IMO. Too early to judge really any of his decisions