[Trade] Canucks trade Jonathan Dahlen to Sharks for Linus Karlsson

[zduck14]

9 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

Kucherov only played 17 games for him

point only played 9 

drouin only played 9 

 

i dont think you can say he made any sort of impact on those guys. gourde and marchessault are his two most notible players that he’s worked with. Them and my buddy hank who played 19 games with him in 13/14.  Lol

Looking through Cull's history with Syracuse (both stints) there doesn't seem to be much development overall. The only high draft pick that spent any time with him and turned out half decent has been Derick Brassard. Aside from him, he's seen quite a long list of 1st and 2nd round picks become below average NHLers or worse.

 

Joakim Lindstrom (41st pick in 2002),

Alex Picard (8th pick in 2004),

Adam Pineault (46th pick in 2004),

Nikita Filatov (6th pick in 2008),

Brett Connolly (6th pick in 2010), 

Vladislav Namestnikov (27th pick in 2011),

Slater Koekkoek (10th pick in 2012),

Adam Erne (33rd pick in 2013),

Tony DeAngelo (19th pick in 2014),

Dominik Masin (35th pick in 2014).

 

These guys all spent a significant amount of time with Cull in the AHL and most were highly regarded prospects. I'm not saying that I have anything against Cull as I know very little about him but this history definitely leaves me questioning whether or not he's the right guy to be developing prospects like Lind, Gadjovich, Juolevi, etc...

[Solinar]

   The more I hear, the more I start to wonder about Utica.  We haven't had a lot of success coming out of the small club, and you can cite a variety of reasons.  To begin with, there as a lack of high end talent because of years of drafting low.  Then we started drafting high, but high end prospects graduated to the club directly instead of via  the farm team, much the same way Edmonton has done.  We call guys up, and it isn't like they light the world on fire, and immediately go back down when our own questionable players come back from injury.  

  The organisation needs to take a good long look at our player development model, and fix a situation so that we can start a true pipeline of players coming in to supplement the team for years to come.  And it certainly doesn't bode well when we take our better prospects and trade them out for sideways project players.  

  That being said, I think it is a problem that can be dealt with easily.  You have to commit some time and money into your AHL development model, bring in more supplemental skills coaches, and be more focused in drafting beyond rounds 1 and 2, so that you are gaining guys to work in your system that'll compliment each other.  If you have skilled wingers, you better have some skilled centres to play with.  If you have an offensive defense, gain some guys who can support them defensively while they create.  Sniper needs a guy to feed him a shot, and a physical guy to go to the net.  You need the right mix to bring out full potential, and hopefully then you'll end up with a system where the players not only work together, but work to even out the warts in their game, and excel in the areas that made them intriguing to draft in the first place.

[Canucks Curse]

they gave up on Dahlen way too early. I don't get it, what was the harm of telling him to just shut it and that he would get a crack at the nil next year and he could play for utica in the playoffs. Also they traded him for a 2 way forward who will be at best a 3C in the nil but was a 3rd round pick... they traded our top wing prospect for a two way counterman hmmmmm- really, could they get nothing else?  could they not package him for something better???

[filthycanuck]

9 hours ago, zduck14 said:

Looking through Cull's history with Syracuse (both stints) there doesn't seem to be much development overall. The only high draft pick that spent any time with him and turned out half decent has been Derick Brassard. Aside from him, he's seen quite a long list of 1st and 2nd round picks become below average NHLers or worse.

 

Joakim Lindstrom (41st pick in 2002),

Alex Picard (8th pick in 2004),

Adam Pineault (46th pick in 2004),

Nikita Filatov (6th pick in 2008),

Brett Connolly (6th pick in 2010), 

Vladislav Namestnikov (27th pick in 2011),

Slater Koekkoek (10th pick in 2012),

Adam Erne (33rd pick in 2013),

Tony DeAngelo (19th pick in 2014),

Dominik Masin (35th pick in 2014).

 

These guys all spent a significant amount of time with Cull in the AHL and most were highly regarded prospects. I'm not saying that I have anything against Cull as I know very little about him but this history definitely leaves me questioning whether or not he's the right guy to be developing prospects like Lind, Gadjovich, Juolevi, etc...

Not every guy is gonna be a star, or simply put, management just picked the wrong player. There are a lot of guys that least have made the NHL compared to what we were used to during the Gillis era. I mean, even in the guys you mentioned ( I don't think Filatov should count, the guy just flat out gave up and bolted to the KHL) Connolly, Deangelo, Namestikov, Koekkoek are all playing in the NHL up to now. Average, yes, but their careers have also going and played a fair bit of games. Picard and Lindstrom have also been up here, and another 2 guys Cull had a hand in getting to the bigs is Tom Sestito and Derek Dorsett, both had somewhat decent careers, Dorsett playing 500 games is quite and achievement on its own.

 

I think the problem is our expectations. We have Benning at such a high pedestal with his drafting prowess that we want to see all these guys just light it up in the AHL, and jump to the NHL but thats not the case, not every guy is going to pan out. But if we were going to make comparisons, before the Benning era, look at the guys we've gotten to see and be excited for. Schroeder, Grenier, Nick Jentzen, etc, these guys all lit it up in the AHL, none had great careers in even compared to the guys that have made it in your list. Gone are the days when we had guys like Alex Mallett, Matt Beattie, Jordan Subban, and we eat up every single morsel of highlights and project them as roster players and flame out and none of those guys were remotely close into making the NHL. But from what I can compare with Cull, it seems like hes gotten more guys into the NHL, than what was previously done with the previous regime. You don't need a whole bunch of lead singers, you need backup dancers too. The main part is getting to the stage

[coryberg]

I heard a rumor a month ago that the nilsson deal was done when it was because demko's group wanted him to take the next step. I could see dahlens group seeing that work and giving it a go.

 

Demko of course was 2.5 seasons in to his AHL career, had improved on his short comings and management had no problem bumping him up.

 

Dahlen on the other hand was half a season in the AHL and still had holes in his game, hence the result. Sends a message to keep the egos in check down there.

Edited March 2, 2019 by coryberg

[Phil_314]

15 hours ago, Canucks Curse said:

they gave up on Dahlen way too early. I don't get it, what was the harm of telling him to just shut it and that he would get a crack at the nil next year and he could play for utica in the playoffs. Also they traded him for a 2 way forward who will be at best a 3C in the nil but was a 3rd round pick... they traded our top wing prospect for a two way counterman hmmmmm- really, could they get nothing else?  could they not package him for something better???

Given Jimbo's track record of selling high on prospect potential flops, I trust that there's more promise and potential in Linus than he's received credit for.  
Of course, I agree it could've worked if he told Dahlen to earn his spot next year but if he did want out then so be it.  
J.B. isn't someone to let the room be disrupted by individuals. 

[zduck14]

9 hours ago, filthycanuck said:

Not every guy is gonna be a star, or simply put, management just picked the wrong player. There are a lot of guys that least have made the NHL compared to what we were used to during the Gillis era. I mean, even in the guys you mentioned ( I don't think Filatov should count, the guy just flat out gave up and bolted to the KHL) Connolly, Deangelo, Namestikov, Koekkoek are all playing in the NHL up to now. Average, yes, but their careers have also going and played a fair bit of games. Picard and Lindstrom have also been up here, and another 2 guys Cull had a hand in getting to the bigs is Tom Sestito and Derek Dorsett, both had somewhat decent careers, Dorsett playing 500 games is quite and achievement on its own.

 

I think the problem is our expectations. We have Benning at such a high pedestal with his drafting prowess that we want to see all these guys just light it up in the AHL, and jump to the NHL but thats not the case, not every guy is going to pan out. But if we were going to make comparisons, before the Benning era, look at the guys we've gotten to see and be excited for. Schroeder, Grenier, Nick Jentzen, etc, these guys all lit it up in the AHL, none had great careers in even compared to the guys that have made it in your list. Gone are the days when we had guys like Alex Mallett, Matt Beattie, Jordan Subban, and we eat up every single morsel of highlights and project them as roster players and flame out and none of those guys were remotely close into making the NHL. But from what I can compare with Cull, it seems like hes gotten more guys into the NHL, than what was previously done with the previous regime. You don't need a whole bunch of lead singers, you need backup dancers too. The main part is getting to the stage

I agree that it's good that these guys made it to the NHL. The part I find questionable is that none of these guys are playing up to what was considered their potential at the time they were drafted. Connolly, while he's a very good bottom 6 player, was drafted 6th overall because he was seen as a 1st or 2nd line player. DeAngelo is only now starting to show why he was a first rounder (even that is a stretch at this point so far) but he's on his 3rd organization in 5 years since being drafted. Koekkoek, a 10th overall pick, got in a whole 85 games in 6+ years since being drafted and was basically given away. Alex Picard was drafted 8th overall and saw a total of just 67 NHL games and while Lindstrom may have played 150 career games, they were spread out over 10 seasons and 5 different teams.

 

It's easy to pick out guys like Sestito (not exactly a good hockey player but was around when toughness was still needed) and Dorsett and say Cull is able to produce NHLers. Every team has these guys. Even the Canucks had guys like Hutton and Connauton turn into decent NHL players. My point, however, is that the overwhelming majority of high draft picks (players expected to be top 6 guys) that Cull's had a hand in have failed to reach their potential. 

 

Your point about our expectations is right though. If you look back a few years, the most successful team we've ever seen had several players brought up through Manitoba and go on to be significant contributors to the big club throughout the lineup. The 2011 team consisted of Kesler, Raymond, Burrows, Hansen, Rypien, Edler, Bieksa and Schneider. All of whom spent a fairly significant amount of time in the AHL and eventually reached or exceeded their original draft projections. I feel like seeing that makes fans almost assume it's going to happen again

 

I'm not saying there's an issue with Cull or not. As I mentioned in the first post, I know very little about him but looking at his history of dealing with high draft picks, I think it's fair to question whether or not guys like Juolevi, Lind, Gadjovich, etc are in the right hands for their development. The last thing fans want to see is for all these higher drafted guys to turn into Connolly types. While those players are valuable, the team will be mediocre at best if they can't get the Juolevi's and Linds to reach a higher level than just bottom 6/bottom D pair role players.

[JeremyCuddles]

18 hours ago, Canucks Curse said:

they gave up on Dahlen way too early. I don't get it, what was the harm of telling him to just shut it and that he would get a crack at the nil next year and he could play for utica in the playoffs. Also they traded him for a 2 way forward who will be at best a 3C in the nil but was a 3rd round pick... they traded our top wing prospect for a two way counterman hmmmmm- really, could they get nothing else?  could they not package him for something better???

I don't wanna say Karlsson is a 3rd line center at best, but that is realistically what we are hoping for. People are calling 22 year old 5th rounder Gaudette Kesler already, so to short change a 19 year old 3rd rounder like that is hypocritical at best, disrespectful at worst. There are a lot of things about his game we should be excited to see. Character and work ethic are great tools to have. He seems to have those if any of the reports I keep hearing/reading about are to be believed. You can in some ways teach skills, you can't really teach character and hard work.

 

With that said we never really got to see what we had in Dahlen other than almost single handedly carrying his team into the SHL, and I think he recognized that as well by being frustrated with his lack of looks in the A and not even being mentioned as a call up for Vancouver when our team was riddled with injuries. Did he overstep his boundaries? For sure, you gotta earn your way to looks in the NHL. He had a really great season last year in Europe and I guess he was frustrated that he hit a wall here. But there was ZERO rush to move him. Sit him down, tell him the plan, and hope he battles through it. You don't wanna be on the opposite side of a Naslund/Stojanov deal.

Edited March 2, 2019 by N7Nucks

[DrJockitch]

Before we go at Cull too much I think we also need to recognize that Benning has had a tendency to draft College and Euro players who generally do there developing outside of Utica.  

I would also note that the vast majority of draft picks don't become NHL players.  When you get outside the first round the percentages drop off steeply. 

When I looked at the group of forwards heading to Utica this year I thought it was a good looking group and hoped that 1 or 2 would become NHL players.  I would say Dahlen was on the path but obviously that point is moot.  Lind is on the path but has a long way to go yet.  Gadjo may take longer, not uncommon for big guys.  Palmu was always a stretch and is an excellent prospect for where we got him.

If we get one player out of Lind, Gadjovich, Jasek and Palmu we are above the expected success rate for these draft pics.  

[theo5789]

18 hours ago, Canucks Curse said:

they gave up on Dahlen way too early. I don't get it, what was the harm of telling him to just shut it and that he would get a crack at the nil next year and he could play for utica in the playoffs. Also they traded him for a 2 way forward who will be at best a 3C in the nil but was a 3rd round pick... they traded our top wing prospect for a two way counterman hmmmmm- really, could they get nothing else?  could they not package him for something better???

This is the classic case of I have no idea who this player is (not the "brand name") so he must have little potential. And it goes the other way, you hear a name enough and even when they are well past their potential growth, people still are hopeful though because of a name they've heard.

 

With that said, I don't claim to know much about Karlsson, so I'm going to wait and see and hopefully find out more about him before wondering if we could've gotten more. Karlsson was only drafted last year, so it's basically the equivalent of gaining another pick from last year's draft (especially considering he seemed to be a pick that we were targetting in the 3rd round as well). He's been labelled as a 2 way center, but his potential seems to go beyond a 3rd line center.

 

We hear time and time again that this player is at best 3rd line center. Sometimes these players breakthrough and show even more. Kesler had the 3rd line center title and eventually became a 2nd line center for us. Gaudette was likely viewed as a 4th line center /AHL fodder for us after being a 5th round pick and based on him having an incredible Hobey Baker season, he's progressed and seems like a guy that can continue climbing the ranks. I remember him making a comment that he wanted to compete for the 2nd line center spot (before EP took the reigns). And Tyler Madden, who we took in that very same 3rd round that Karlsson did, looks very promising to become even more than the "next John Madden" checking forward that some projected.

 

Besides there isn't a Karlsson (Erik, William and Meller) in the league right now that I do not like!

[Alflives]

3 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

This is the classic case of I have no idea who this player is (not the "brand name") so he must have little potential. And it goes the other way, you hear a name enough and even when they are well past their potential growth, people still are hopeful though because of a name they've heard.

 

With that said, I don't claim to know much about Karlsson, so I'm going to wait and see and hopefully find out more about him before wondering if we could've gotten more. Karlsson was only drafted last year, so it's basically the equivalent of gaining another pick from last year's draft (especially considering he seemed to be a pick that we were targetting in the 3rd round as well). He's been labelled as a 2 way center, but his potential seems to go beyond a 3rd line center.

 

We hear time and time again that this player is at best 3rd line center. Sometimes these players breakthrough and show even more. Kesler had the 3rd line center title and eventually became a 2nd line center for us. Gaudette was likely viewed as a 4th line center /AHL fodder for us after being a 5th round pick and based on him having an incredible Hobey Baker season, he's progressed and seems like a guy that can continue climbing the ranks. I remember him making a comment that he wanted to compete for the 2nd line center spot (before EP took the reigns). And Tyler Madden, who we took in that very same 3rd round that Karlsson did, looks very promising to become even more than the "next John Madden" checking forward that some projected.

 

Besides there isn't a Karlsson (Erik, William and Meller) in the league right now that I do not like!

I already like Karlsson more than Dahlen, because he’s ours and Dahlen is gone.  But I don’t like that our most skilled prospects are having the creative skill part of their games beaten out of them. 

[filthycanuck]

11 hours ago, DrJockitch said:

Before we go at Cull too much I think we also need to recognize that Benning has had a tendency to draft College and Euro players who generally do there developing outside of Utica.  

I would also note that the vast majority of draft picks don't become NHL players.  When you get outside the first round the percentages drop off steeply. 

When I looked at the group of forwards heading to Utica this year I thought it was a good looking group and hoped that 1 or 2 would become NHL players.  I would say Dahlen was on the path but obviously that point is moot.  Lind is on the path but has a long way to go yet.  Gadjo may take longer, not uncommon for big guys.  Palmu was always a stretch and is an excellent prospect for where we got him.

If we get one player out of Lind, Gadjovich, Jasek and Palmu we are above the expected success rate for these draft pics.  

Exactly. Lets just say for arguements sake we had Jett Woo, Toni Utenen and Artyem Manyukan in Utica next  few years. Woo doesn't pan out for various reasons and Manyukan shines, gets into the big leagues and is a consistent 20 goal scorer, and Utenen makes it to the Canucks as a top 4 pairing. Is it still right for us to say that Utica doesn't develop players? I think we should all sometimes look at the draft as a whole, because honestly, 2 guys making it in the draft and being contributions to the team should be considered a very good draft class

[5Fivehole0]

11 hours ago, Alflives said:

I already like Karlsson more than Dahlen, because he’s ours and Dahlen is gone.  But I don’t like that our most skilled prospects are having the creative skill part of their games beaten out of them. 

They aren't 

Horvat dangles
Pettersson dangles
Boeser dangles
Leivo dangles
Goldobin dangles
Hutton dangles

They are not telling these kids to not be creative... It's knowing when you can and not losing the puck...

[Timråfan]

On 2/27/2019 at 11:29 PM, Phat Fingers said:

Believe what you need too...  since your convinced, care to share why... MacEwan, Demko, Brisbiois, Gaudette, Lind, Gads, Saunter and Biega are all proof that Utica is toxic.... 

 

Guess they all must be begging for a trade.  

I am talking about man management... You seem to talk about mindless drones. 

I want creativity and creativity needs man management. Suck it up mentality doesn't work. 

[Phat Fingers]

46 minutes ago, Timråfan said:

I am talking about man management... You seem to talk about mindless drones. 

I want creativity and creativity needs man management. Suck it up mentality doesn't work. 

What....

 

So ' suck it up mentality' sorry buttercup, sometimes you actually have to put the work in and earn it.  

 

'Man managers' real men dont need managers, they can manage themselves.  

 

'Mindless drones' or hard working players that skate to the hard areas of the ice and play solid north south hockey.  If I wanted creativity I would go to art school.  

[Alflives]

5 hours ago, 5Fivehole0 said:

They aren't 

Horvat dangles
Pettersson dangles
Boeser dangles
Leivo dangles
Goldobin dangles
Hutton dangles

They are not telling these kids to not be creative... It's knowing when you can and not losing the puck...

Good point.  I’m talking about our prospects in Utica. 

[IBatch]

25 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Good point.  I’m talking about our prospects in Utica. 

Well Dahlen, dahngled.  Wasn’t good enough to keep him here now he’s a loser playing for the loser Sharks.

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, IBatch said:

Well Dahlen, dahngled.  Wasn’t good enough to keep him here now he’s a loser playing for the loser Sharks.

Exactly he’s a Loser.  Lind, and the rest of ouryoung guys in Utica are not losers.  I hope we aren’t beating the creativity out of them.

[IBatch]

15 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Exactly he’s a Loser.  Lind, and the rest of ouryoung guys in Utica are not losers.  I hope we aren’t beating the creativity out of them.

Nah just the entitlement.  Message received.

[Alflives]

6 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Nah just the entitlement.  Message received.

Excellent point.