Where Are All the Viewers?

[Twilight Sparkle]

The average audience of 778,000 viewers across games was the best number since 2012.

 

The ratings numbers are in for the first round of the 2019 NHL playoffs, and they’re quite good. As per NBC, the first round wound up being the most-watched in seven years across the board, with the cable numbers the best they’ve been in 25 years:

 

On the strength of 10 overtime games, three Game 7s and two improbable sweeps, NBC Sports’ presentation of the 2019 Stanley Cup Playoffs across the networks of NBCUniversal delivered the most-watched First Round in seven years, according to Nielsen and digital data from Adobe Analytics. First Round coverage across NBC Sports’ cable platforms produced the most-watched First Round on cable in 25 years and ranks as the second-best First Round on cable on record (since 1994). The First Round milestones were punctuated by three Game 7s, including last night’s Hurricanes-Capitals series finale on NBCSN, which is now the most-watched First Round cable game on record.

Across NBC, NBCSN, CNBC, USA Network, NBCSports.com, and the NBC Sports app, the 45 Stanley Cup Playoff First Round games averaged a Total Audience Delivery (TAD) of 778,000 viewers, making it the most-watched First Round in seven years (2012; 936,000), NBC Sports’ third-most watched First Round ever (since 2006), and up one percent vs. last year (769,000).

 

That’s definitely impressive. Of course, some of that’s thanks to Total Audience Delivery capturing some elements that weren’t previously counted (including streaming viewership), and some of it’s thanks to factors outside of league or network control, especially the overtimes. Overtimes tend to be quite good for games’ overall average audience, with more people tuning in for close third periods and overtime frames (unless it goes to three, four or five overtimes, where there’s sometimes a drop-off), and the strong ratings NBCSN drew for the Carolina Hurricanes’ double-overtime Game 7 win over the Washington Capitals Wednesday (post-game handshake line seen above) provide some evidence there. Here’s more from their release on those ratings:

Last night’s double-overtime Game 7 — in which the Carolina Hurricanes defeated the defending Stanley Cup champion Washington Capitals, 4-3 — averaged a TAD of 1.750 million viewers, making it the most-watched First Round cable game on record, up 18% vs. NBCSN’s previous record, set by last year’s Maple Leafs-Bruins Game 7 (1.484 million; NBCSN), and up 16% vs. the previous overall record (1.514 million; 2000 Game 7 Sharks-Blues; ESPN).

Game 7 peaked at 2.522 million TV-only viewers at the end of the first overtime (10:45-11 p.m. ET) and powered NBCSN to its most-watched primetime weeknight (1.716 million viewers; 8-11 p.m. ET) since last year’s Stanley Cup Final Game 2 between Washington and Vegas on May 30 (3.678 million).

https://awfulannouncing.com/nhl/nhl-first-round-playoff-ratings-highest-in-seven-years.html

 

What the USA numbers mean: as of right now, WWE Monday Night RAW is USA's (NBC) highest rated show (avg 2m viewers), and the NHL is starting to breathe down their neck

 

 

and according to his last set of numbers, the NHL recovered from the tweet below~

It’s truly unbelievable just how bad the ratings for the NBA are. Let’s not forget the fact a repeat of The Masters beat a live pro basketball game. If that’s not a terrible sign, then I don’t know what is. Secondly, everybody just kind of assume the Golden State Warriors are going to win the title every year. It kind of kills the excitement for people when they don’t even think there is any competition. I’m not saying the Warriors will win it, but they’re the best team in the league until proven otherwise. On a side note, I’m glad to see the NHL is still going strong. There’s nothing better than some playoff hockey. It’s the best, and the fact so many people are watching is a great sign for America.

 

https://dailycaller.com/2019/04/28/nba-nhl-playoff-tv-ratings/

 

you can take these numbers with a grain of salt, but the nhl numbers continue to grow year after year so the league is doing something right.

 

at least from what i noticed here on cdc, is we've been the most active during the first round before things kinda fell off the rails (jerks winning (split), jets falling (split), vegas getting "screwed" (unpopular), flames losing (good), leafs losing (good) now the isles losing (split)-- it seems to me that the first round peaked for the majority of cdc tuning in to the playoffs and the overall activity, but the interest just doesn't feel like it's here for this second round

 

are we all kinda just "skipping" the semis for the final 4? like where do you guys stand?

 

for me, i don't have the interest like i did last year, and if the bj's/sharks get eliminated, i'm done, i'll no longer care about the rest of the post season

[Nuxfanabroad]

Yanks have almost completed their grand theft? Ahh, wtg!

[Twilight Sparkle]

4 minutes ago, Nuxfanabroad said:

Yanks have almost completed their grand theft? Ahh, wtg!

the grand theft was completed in 1994. they're just adding to their stash =p

[Nuxfanabroad]

17 minutes ago, Twilight Sparkle said:

the grand theft was completed in 1994. they're just adding to their stash =p

I fought the big machine(in vain), TS..it chewed me up, & spat me out

[Twilight Sparkle]

39 minutes ago, The 5th Line said:

I love watching LeBron so I haven't tuned in to the NBA playoffs as much this year.  LeBron vs The Field is good T.V

 

 

 

that first year, lebron vs the world, was great tv, and when they won, you couldn't have scripted it better than that, but with the nba, it seems so easy to manipulate real time than ice hockey, that you can't really take it seriously, but that one year, it was literally lebron vs. the world, and when the caps won the cup, no one expected that. everyone expected a caps choke and an expansion team to win the championship

[GLASSJAW]

i'm of the belief that most professional sports are bleeding a slow death - I, personally, cannot imagine the NFL or NHL or MLB being more than a small niche interest within 10-15 years.  I would be shocked if ESPN is still operating in 5 years, they are just screwed with their garbage contracts. But beyond that, most teams and leagues are propped up by tv contracts that rely on dwindling advertising deals that just don't look good anymore 

 

so much of the ratings for these sports are propped up by older men, not young people. so how long will that last? the efforts to make these sports appealing to young people (NFL on Twitch, etc.) just won't work because the markets aren't the same. young people just care less than ever before about playing these sports, and they're watching them less too.

 

there needs to be massive changes if these sports want to survive, and I think it'll take a total gamble from Amazon, Netflix, etc. to just buy the deals for teams outright, and sell app packages for specific teams to a global audience. no more of this regionalized, local advertisement garbage. 

 

let people watch and re-watch new and old games on their own time, on their own interest. stop shoving commercials and advertisements down everyones throat using a platform nobody cares about except the older generation that just hasn't made the move to streaming yet.

 

 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

We’re all waiting to subscribe to Twilight Sparkle’s live home webcams!

[Alflives]

1 hour ago, GLASSJAW said:

i'm of the belief that most professional sports are bleeding a slow death - I, personally, cannot imagine the NFL or NHL or MLB being more than a small niche interest within 10-15 years.  I would be shocked if ESPN is still operating in 5 years, they are just screwed with their garbage contracts. But beyond that, most teams and leagues are propped up by tv contracts that rely on dwindling advertising deals that just don't look good anymore 

 

so much of the ratings for these sports are propped up by older men, not young people. so how long will that last? the efforts to make these sports appealing to young people (NFL on Twitch, etc.) just won't work because the markets aren't the same. young people just care less than ever before about playing these sports, and they're watching them less too.

 

there needs to be massive changes if these sports want to survive, and I think it'll take a total gamble from Amazon, Netflix, etc. to just buy the deals for teams outright, and sell app packages for specific teams to a global audience. no more of this regionalized, local advertisement garbage. 

 

let people watch and re-watch new and old games on their own time, on their own interest. stop shoving commercials and advertisements down everyones throat using a platform nobody cares about except the older generation that just hasn't made the move to streaming yet.

 

 

I wonder what the radio numbers are like?  

[Dazzle]

1 hour ago, GLASSJAW said:

i'm of the belief that most professional sports are bleeding a slow death - I, personally, cannot imagine the NFL or NHL or MLB being more than a small niche interest within 10-15 years.  I would be shocked if ESPN is still operating in 5 years, they are just screwed with their garbage contracts. But beyond that, most teams and leagues are propped up by tv contracts that rely on dwindling advertising deals that just don't look good anymore 

 

so much of the ratings for these sports are propped up by older men, not young people. so how long will that last? the efforts to make these sports appealing to young people (NFL on Twitch, etc.) just won't work because the markets aren't the same. young people just care less than ever before about playing these sports, and they're watching them less too.

 

there needs to be massive changes if these sports want to survive, and I think it'll take a total gamble from Amazon, Netflix, etc. to just buy the deals for teams outright, and sell app packages for specific teams to a global audience. no more of this regionalized, local advertisement garbage. 

 

let people watch and re-watch new and old games on their own time, on their own interest. stop shoving commercials and advertisements down everyones throat using a platform nobody cares about except the older generation that just hasn't made the move to streaming yet.

 

 

I'd like to know how you came up with those conclusions.They all sound suspiciously baseless as opinions.

[Crabcakes]

Streaming live.

 

How many people are giving up cable?  

[D-Money]

I'm semi-interested, partially because I have some fantasy teams, and partially because I just like hockey. I plan on watching the Stars/Blues game this afternoon.

 

However, I live in Calgary, and early last Friday evening my family met friends at Earls (happy hour specials). They have a number of TVs, so I expected to be able to catch a little of Carolina/NYI game 1 while there...but every single screen was showing baseball.

 

Perhaps it was the fresh wound of a market with high expectations being eliminated in an upset, but I couldn't believe it. Perhaps they thought showing it would bum people out.

[Master Mind]

I refuse to watch Boston get away with all their crap.

 

Carolina/Isles may have been exciting to some, but I find neither team overly interesting to watch.

 

Blues/Stars is another meh series, especially if Stars win.

 

Sharks/Avs only one worth watching.

 

All the teams I have interest in are out. It's all just about who can stop Boston now, which is likely no one, so why tune in to see them win another cup they don't deserve?

[JeremyCuddles]

I love how everyone says Durant going to the Warriors was good for basketball. There is 0 parity in the NBA even without the Warriors having 4 of the best players in the NBA on their team. I mentioned it somewhere, probably on youtube, that the top 4 seeds in both the Eastern and Western conference all advanced past the first round. There is no surprise factor in the NBA, no upsets, no drama. Players are constantly crying after every call. It's not fun to watch. Doesn't help the center of the NBA universe didn't even make the playoffs. Love him or hate him NBA fans watch Lebron all the same whether to see him lose or win. As a huge basketball fan I don't watch very many basketball games anymore. Does not surprise me one bit to see the NBA numbers drop the way they have. 

 

Honestly, I was rooting for upsets in round 1 but didn't think this many would happen. Losing Crosby, Ovi, Vegas and Tampa in the first round isn't really good for the sport. Especially for teams like the Isles and the Canes. Neither team has those star players that people will flock to their tv to see. Then you have some less than exciting teams in the West move on. Sucked that Vegas and Sharks met in the 1st round. Both should be in the 2nd. Isles got bodied by the Canes, none of the games I seen were particularly interesting. Avs I am not super invested in seeing honestly. Stars normally play a boring game, not really watching them either. I'd watch more if Vegas was around. Crosby/Malkin and Ovi in the East.

[Coconuts]

More and more people are viewing online via streams and not spending a dime, I'm one of em. Cable isn't worth it when you can pick netflix, ect and find almost anything sports related online for free if you're willing to dig for it. 

 

Current playoff format doesn't help either. While Toronto, Pittsburgh, Tampa, Washington, Nashville, ect going out in the first round is exciting that's a lot of popular fanbases with interest likely having dipped. Makes sense viewership would suffer. Lot of fans aren't rabid hockey fans so much as one team supporters. 

[MikeBossy]

11 hours ago, Twilight Sparkle said:

The average audience of 778,000 viewers across games was the best number since 2012.

 

The ratings numbers are in for the first round of the 2019 NHL playoffs, and they’re quite good. As per NBC, the first round wound up being the most-watched in seven years across the board, with the cable numbers the best they’ve been in 25 years:

 

On the strength of 10 overtime games, three Game 7s and two improbable sweeps, NBC Sports’ presentation of the 2019 Stanley Cup Playoffs across the networks of NBCUniversal delivered the most-watched First Round in seven years, according to Nielsen and digital data from Adobe Analytics. First Round coverage across NBC Sports’ cable platforms produced the most-watched First Round on cable in 25 years and ranks as the second-best First Round on cable on record (since 1994). The First Round milestones were punctuated by three Game 7s, including last night’s Hurricanes-Capitals series finale on NBCSN, which is now the most-watched First Round cable game on record.

Across NBC, NBCSN, CNBC, USA Network, NBCSports.com, and the NBC Sports app, the 45 Stanley Cup Playoff First Round games averaged a Total Audience Delivery (TAD) of 778,000 viewers, making it the most-watched First Round in seven years (2012; 936,000), NBC Sports’ third-most watched First Round ever (since 2006), and up one percent vs. last year (769,000).

 

That’s definitely impressive. Of course, some of that’s thanks to Total Audience Delivery capturing some elements that weren’t previously counted (including streaming viewership), and some of it’s thanks to factors outside of league or network control, especially the overtimes. Overtimes tend to be quite good for games’ overall average audience, with more people tuning in for close third periods and overtime frames (unless it goes to three, four or five overtimes, where there’s sometimes a drop-off), and the strong ratings NBCSN drew for the Carolina Hurricanes’ double-overtime Game 7 win over the Washington Capitals Wednesday (post-game handshake line seen above) provide some evidence there. Here’s more from their release on those ratings:

Last night’s double-overtime Game 7 — in which the Carolina Hurricanes defeated the defending Stanley Cup champion Washington Capitals, 4-3 — averaged a TAD of 1.750 million viewers, making it the most-watched First Round cable game on record, up 18% vs. NBCSN’s previous record, set by last year’s Maple Leafs-Bruins Game 7 (1.484 million; NBCSN), and up 16% vs. the previous overall record (1.514 million; 2000 Game 7 Sharks-Blues; ESPN).

Game 7 peaked at 2.522 million TV-only viewers at the end of the first overtime (10:45-11 p.m. ET) and powered NBCSN to its most-watched primetime weeknight (1.716 million viewers; 8-11 p.m. ET) since last year’s Stanley Cup Final Game 2 between Washington and Vegas on May 30 (3.678 million).

https://awfulannouncing.com/nhl/nhl-first-round-playoff-ratings-highest-in-seven-years.html

 

What the USA numbers mean: as of right now, WWE Monday Night RAW is USA's (NBC) highest rated show (avg 2m viewers), and the NHL is starting to breathe down their neck

 

 

and according to his last set of numbers, the NHL recovered from the tweet below~

It’s truly unbelievable just how bad the ratings for the NBA are. Let’s not forget the fact a repeat of The Masters beat a live pro basketball game. If that’s not a terrible sign, then I don’t know what is. Secondly, everybody just kind of assume the Golden State Warriors are going to win the title every year. It kind of kills the excitement for people when they don’t even think there is any competition. I’m not saying the Warriors will win it, but they’re the best team in the league until proven otherwise. On a side note, I’m glad to see the NHL is still going strong. There’s nothing better than some playoff hockey. It’s the best, and the fact so many people are watching is a great sign for America.

 

https://dailycaller.com/2019/04/28/nba-nhl-playoff-tv-ratings/

 

you can take these numbers with a grain of salt, but the nhl numbers continue to grow year after year so the league is doing something right.

 

at least from what i noticed here on cdc, is we've been the most active during the first round before things kinda fell off the rails (jerks winning (split), jets falling (split), vegas getting "screwed" (unpopular), flames losing (good), leafs losing (good) now the isles losing (split)-- it seems to me that the first round peaked for the majority of cdc tuning in to the playoffs and the overall activity, but the interest just doesn't feel like it's here for this second round

 

are we all kinda just "skipping" the semis for the final 4? like where do you guys stand?

 

for me, i don't have the interest like i did last year, and if the bj's/sharks get eliminated, i'm done, i'll no longer care about the rest of the post season

Honestly I watched the first round religiously and each game - it was great hockey but really lost interest in the 2nd round. I myself am not a big Sharks fan as they are a division rival so if they move on along with the bruins I don't see myself watching at all. I did manage to watch the last period of the Columbus Boston game last night and wow what a finish

[Twilight Sparkle]

6 hours ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

We’re all waiting to subscribe to Twilight Sparkle’s live home webcams!

ill get a patreon started too lmaoo

 

3 hours ago, N7Nucks said:

I love how everyone says Durant going to the Warriors was good for basketball. There is 0 parity in the NBA even without the Warriors having 4 of the best players in the NBA on their team. I mentioned it somewhere, probably on youtube, that the top 4 seeds in both the Eastern and Western conference all advanced past the first round. There is no surprise factor in the NBA, no upsets, no drama. Players are constantly crying after every call. It's not fun to watch. Doesn't help the center of the NBA universe didn't even make the playoffs. Love him or hate him NBA fans watch Lebron all the same whether to see him lose or win. As a huge basketball fan I don't watch very many basketball games anymore. Does not surprise me one bit to see the NBA numbers drop the way they have. 

 

Honestly, I was rooting for upsets in round 1 but didn't think this many would happen. Losing Crosby, Ovi, Vegas and Tampa in the first round isn't really good for the sport. Especially for teams like the Isles and the Canes. Neither team has those star players that people will flock to their tv to see. Then you have some less than exciting teams in the West move on. Sucked that Vegas and Sharks met in the 1st round. Both should be in the 2nd. Isles got bodied by the Canes, none of the games I seen were particularly interesting. Avs I am not super invested in seeing honestly. Stars normally play a boring game, not really watching them either. I'd watch more if Vegas was around. Crosby/Malkin and Ovi in the East.

idk if anyone really cares too much about tampa bay to compare to crosby and ovii. where the league is going, and hockey in general, is we're seeing less and less of one guy carrying a team/market and true parity coming to fruition. its not like the nba where you already know who's winning the title in pre season, but you look at the NHL this year, and how little winning the regular season means. i like the aspect of not knowing who's winning the title.

 

i mean, yeah you can kinda gauge and where teams will end up, based on their roster, and you can kinda predect who's making the playoffs but its getting harder and harder to predict, not like previous years. this year is the year of upsets, and even though the hurricanes dont have any true standout superstars, they beat the stanley cup champions, so i can see a few people tuning in to see where they go from there, and the league picks up a few more fans along the way. i see caps fans on twitter supporting the canes, like hey you beat the champions, you better win the cup. the drama of a team that nearly missed the playoffs and beating the champions is more interesting than anything in the nba. i haven't cared about the nba since the finals a few years ago where labron carried the cavs to the title

 

overall i don't really care about the western conference outside of the canucks and jets so i'll just root for an eastern team to win the title. if it aint us, then keep the cup as far away from here, especially cali, as possible

 

2 hours ago, Coconuts said:

More and more people are viewing online via streams and not spending a time, I'm one of em. Cable isn't worth it when you can pick netflix, ect and find almost anything sports related online for free if you're willing to dig for it. 

 

Current playoff format doesn't help either. While Toronto, Pittsburgh, Tampa, Washington, Nashville, ect going out in the first round is exciting that's a lot of popular fanbases with interest likely having dipped. Makes sense viewership would suffer. Lot of fans aren't rabid hockey fans so much as one team supporters. 

i can agree that losing the "big markets" would make ratings suffer but the nhl seems to be finding something where losing the big stars and big market teams isnt hurting viewership. the on ice product is a smaller part to the bigger story, where the media plays a huge role in creating the drama and relaying it to fans to make you care about these teams, as if they were a tv character

[Ghostsof1915]

I think online streaming is going to be the way of the future. Even the way people watch TV is different. Binge watching is common now. 

I wonder how the CRTC is going to handle that? 

Even $299 for a full season of football or hockey translates into $25 a month. Choose NHL Centre Ice and whatever basics an online service will provide will be better than $150+ a month on cable and internet. 

 

Some sports are getting older. Baseball, Golf, and CFL. But young people are still watching hockey, basketball and soccer and the NFL. Even Rugby 7's sell out at BC Place and the fans are over the moon with it. 

The question was brought up will millennials watch a sporting event for 2 hours? If you are entertained yes.

Even baseball at Nat Bailey has it's charm, and is perfect on a sunny summer day, with lots of food and beverages. 

 

If ratings drop, TV contracts will be less lucrative. You might even see the craziest things. Like Baseball having a hard salary cap. 

 

[alt kilgore]

19 hours ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

Even $299 for a full season of football or hockey translates into $25 a month

Gave up cable long ago.  And that was back when finding a Canucks stream was even more difficult and I had to put up with stuttering feeds and freezes. There are sites today, especially one, which I can't/won't name, that works quite well for all games, including international. Even Tryamkins games in the KHL if I have insomnia.

 

Isn't that $25 a month just for away games as well?  Until they remove the home game black out for local markets its just not worth it. $300 for 41 games, and I still have to search and find the other 41 games anyways?  I understand that one has access to all the other teams games too, but I don't have the time nor desire to follow other teams.

 

I have Netflix too. If they had a deal, maybe not from NHL Center Ice, but from Rogers Sportsnet perhaps, for about the same price as Netflix, where I could watch every Canucks game, but no other teams or perks, I'd jump on that.  Let them include advertising. YouTube has figured out how to run ads that you can't skip over, they could do something similar.

[PhillipBlunt]

I'll always enjoy watching...…

[Twilight Sparkle]

Per NBC:

Quote

 

The Second Round of the 2019 Stanley Cup Playoffs are the most-watched Second Round on record, averaging a TAD of 1.621 million viewers for 24 games across NBC, NBCSN, NBCSports.com and the NBC Sports app. Viewership was also up 3% vs. last year (1.574 million).

Columbus-Boston Game 5, which followed Kentucky Derby coverage in primetime this past Saturday night, averaged a TAD of 4.618 million viewers, ranking as the second-most watched non-Stanley Cup Final NHL game on television since 1993 and up 7% vs. the comparable game in 2018. It trailed only Chicago-Anaheim (4.636 million), which was a Western Conference Game 7 in 2015.

 

The top cable game of the Second Round was Boston-Columbus Game 4 on NBCSN, which averaged a TAD of 2.065 million viewers and is the network’s most-watched Second Round Game 4 on record. It was up 15% from the comparable 2018 game.

 

COLORADO-SAN JOSE GAME 7

Last night’s exciting Colorado-San Jose Second Round Game 7 averaged a TAD of 1.754 million viewers on NBCSN, making it the most-watched late game in four years (Chi-Ana Game 5, 2.092 million) and up 9% vs. last year’s Winnipeg-Nashville Game 7 (1.611 million).

Viewership peaked with nearly 2.1 million viewers. Both Denver and San Jose set viewership milestones for the game.

 

DIGITAL

Across NBCSports.com and the NBC Sports app streaming platforms, the 2019 Stanley Cup Playoffs to date have totalled 526.8 million live minutes, up 39% compared to the same time last year.

This was also the most streamed Second Round of the Stanley Cup Playoffs ever in Average Minute Audience (AMA) and live minutes streamed. The Second Round totalled 255.2 million live minutes, up 29% compared to the complete Second Round last year. The AMA of 59,700 viewers was up 30% year over year.

The Dallas-St. Louis double overtime Game 7 set Second Round records in AMA, uniques and live minutes. The game delivered an AMA of 103,900 viewers, which stands as the highest AMA on record for a Second Round game. The game’s 328,000 uniques and 25.7 million live minutes also rank as the highest on record for a Second Round game.

Last night’s Colorado-San Jose Game 7 delivered an AMA of 87,700 viewers, which ranks as a Top 3 Second Round AMA and was up 60% compared to last year’s Winnipeg-Nashville Second Round Game 7.

 

LOCAL

Colorado, Columbus and Dallas all drew NBC Sports’ best NHL ratings ever in their respective markets, while Carolina, St. Louis and San Jose all had NBC Sports’ best Second Round ratings in their markets.

• Carolina: 7.7 for Raleigh for Islanders-Hurricanes Game 3 on NBCSN ranks as NBC Sports’ highest Second Round NHL delivery on record in Raleigh.
• Colorado: 11.2 in Denver for Avalanche-Sharks Game 7 on NBCSN stands as NBC Sports’ highest NHL delivery on record in Denver.
• Columbus: 15.2 for Columbus for Blue Jackets-Bruins Game 5 on NBC ranks as NBC Sports’ highest NHL delivery on record in Columbus.
• Dallas: 5.2 in Dallas for Blues-Stars Game 6 on NBC stands as NBC Sports’ highest NHL delivery on record in Dallas.
• St. Louis: 16.0 in St. Louis for Stars-Blues Game 7 on NBCSN ranks as NBC Sports’ highest Second Round NHL delivery on record in St. Louis.
• San Jose: 5.2 in San Jose for Avalanche-Sharks Game 7 on NBCSN stands as NBC Sports’ highest Second Round NHL delivery on record in San Jose.

 

im not familiar with the digital platforms, but those numbers for boston/cbj is pretty telling because, i dont think you'd call columbus, or ohio a grand hockey area but the BJ's are catching on, they're consistently winning after so many years of losing, and it's not like the bjs had fans, then went away, then they came back when they started getting better, that's been a slow growing market