Babcock or Green. Who would you rather see coach the Canucks.

[Devron]

I think Bill Guerin should be our coach

[shiznak]

8 hours ago, the grinder said:

oh really  scott niedermayer , chris pronger  teemu selanne    getzlaf and perry    3 guys already in the hall of fame  no not stacked at all   

 Randy Carlyle coached that team......in 2006.

 

Babcock had Kariya as his only superstar and an aging Adam Oates......in 2003.

[timberz21]

20 hours ago, wildcam said:

Always said Babcock is way overrated, He was never a top 7 coach. He took over a very good Detroit team years ago..

Toronto signs him for 6 Million = stupid crazy

Mathews - over paid

Tavares - Over paid

Marner - over paid

Big trouble over 33 million with 3 players.. Next summer they have to sign most of there D core ? 

Poor signings and still no backup...

These has nothing to do with Babcock.

 

Toronto should have kept Lou a few more years, let him negotiate these contracts and then hand the reign to Dubas.....I'm pretty sure he would have gotten a better deal.

[IBatch]

5 hours ago, shiznak said:

 Randy Carlyle coached that team......in 2006.

 

Babcock had Kariya as his only superstar and an aging Adam Oates......in 2003.

Giguere had one of the single best goalie performances ever that year.  Was that Babcock?  Was the definetly the best choice for the Conn Smythe...absolutely it wasn’t the same team that won the cup a few years later, but that one was probably my favourite to win the last 30 years or so. 

[RU SERIOUS]

On 11/20/2019 at 3:08 PM, Pickly said:

All I can say is I don’t think Green will be the guy that takes this core to the next level. 

............Exactly correct.   I've said this since before he ever arrived here that he is just an "interim" coach being used while the team rebuilds.   If we make the playoffs he'll likely survive another year, but if not I'd say he'll be out on a limb, as the team is just about ready - within 1-2 years of making "a push". 

 

In any event, $5 bucks says he's gone in 2 years or less!  (You can "Lazy Jake" to this scenario as well !)

[Rabbit]

Every team has the time of up and down. I did not hear the voices of  replacing head coach in the beginning of this season, because the team was up at that time.  Obviously the team is down in November, but I have confident that the team will back after the injuries recovered.  We have good chance to playoff this season.

 

Loui's issue is reducing the head coach's efficiency for the line-up, it is not Green's fault. We are waiting BN to fix this issue.

[JayDangles]

17 hours ago, IBatch said:

That’s just a fans wishfull thinking.   Two games ago Horvat went out and set a record for the ninth most face off won in any game ever played - and he had the third best winning percentage of the top ten guys all-time.   Horvat hasn’t ever demonstrated a tough guy attitude since he joined the league - but he is a leader regardless.   Horvat is his own man.  Don’t expect a coaching change to alter how he plays the game - they install systems for sure but it’s a rare coach that changes a player’s fiber.  JB is ultimately responsible for those things by who he brings in.   WD forcing Tree to watch videos of Pronger ...  well we all know how that went - Horvat doesn’t need videos of Wendel Clark or Shanahan or Howe or whomever.  Won’t change a thing.  He’s tough enough to handle himself but when has he ever acted like Mike Keane?  He’s not soft per say but he’s not old time hockey tough either.   At least so far.  And that’s on him - not Green and it’s OK. 

I think you misunderstood the difference between player toughness and team toughness. I'm not suggesting that Green is responsible for Horvat (or any other player) not becoming a "tough guy". Obviously thats not what anyone wants.

I'm suggesting he is responsible for the lack of team toughness... which is the desire to stand up for your teammates, seek retribution, either immediately or later in the game, engage in scrums around your net to protect your goalie... a willingness to take your team off the powerplay in order to set an example.

There are times when a team shouldn't do any of those things... and secure the 2pts... but I believe there are times where you do those things and the 2pts be dammed.

IMHO I believe Green is an ok coach, but the lack of team toughness is on him.

 

[189lb enforcers?]

I’d be curious to know how many posters leaving comments understand the differences between the two coaches.

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, JayDangles said:

I think you misunderstood the difference between player toughness and team toughness. I'm not suggesting that Green is responsible for Horvat (or any other player) not becoming a "tough guy". Obviously thats not what anyone wants.

I'm suggesting he is responsible for the lack of team toughness... which is the desire to stand up for your teammates, seek retribution, either immediately or later in the game, engage in scrums around your net to protect your goalie... a willingness to take your team off the powerplay in order to set an example.

There are times when a team shouldn't do any of those things... and secure the 2pts... but I believe there are times where you do those things and the 2pts be dammed.

IMHO I believe Green is an ok coach, but the lack of team toughness is on him.

 

Maybe somewhat - but in my experience it starts with your toughest player and goes from there.   When Probert was moved to CHI Roenick said “ with him here we all feel like we are two feet taller” ... it’s more on JB not getting or adding toughness to our team - but yes it’s on TG not playing Big Mac too.    Games that get rough often start with one player hitting and it rubs off on the guys on their lineup and on the bench.  Maybe  it’s tactical and the coach has asked the players to finish their checks against a specific team whenever they can etc...and hit them often.  

 

On Horvat.  He’s a young captain and needs to figure out on his own what sort of example he wants to set - and playing physical is definitely a part of that.  If he’s not producing he can definitely have an impact anyways given his intangibles...would love it if he decides to amp up the toughness.  Linden had this in spades - and I think we all hope he does too.  

 

When Ferland and Roussel get back it will change the tone of the games.  Watch JV start throwing his weight around more and even guys like EP and BB.    Miller and Horvat are very good all-round players - is expect they will join in too and it will make things a lot harder for our opposition.  

 

So yes the coaching does matter - Torts wanted everyone to drop done no matter who it was blocking shots - that’s going overboard as we don’t need injured players and really it doesn’t help the goalie much 90% of the time anyways.  

 

Also TG needs to set a pace that is sustainable.  It’s a long season.

[ChuckNORRIS4Cup]

23 hours ago, Alflives said:

If the team continues this downward slide in the standings, and in their play, we are likely going to make a coaching change at season's end, right?  Why not make the change now to Babcock, and try to save this season?  Plus, why not get Babcock before he signs with another club?  Coaches like Babcock don't come available very often, when the timing is just right for us.  It's a move our owner could easily sel to the loyal fans, as one that was needed, and now is the right time.  

Fire Green yesterday, and hire Babs today!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's unfortunately not that easy, management is committed to Green so they won't pull a Toronto and fire him after a 6 game losing streak. If this team struggles through out the season and misses the playoffs by a bunch then I could see a coaching change, lots of things factor in as well, especially injuries and who Green is dealing with throughout the season could factor in as well. But if this team come trade deadline is in the playoff picture, with healthy players and then misses the playoffs then I could see Green gone. 

[JayDangles]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

Maybe somewhat - but in my experience it starts with your toughest player and goes from there.   When Probert was moved to CHI Roenick said “ with him here we all feel like we are two feet taller” ... it’s more on JB not getting or adding toughness to our team - but yes it’s on TG not playing Big Mac too.    Games that get rough often start with one player hitting and it rubs off on the guys on their lineup and on the bench.  Maybe  it’s tactical and the coach has asked the players to finish their checks against a specific team whenever they can etc...and hit them often.  

 

On Horvat.  He’s a young captain and needs to figure out on his own what sort of example he wants to set - and playing physical is definitely a part of that.  If he’s not producing he can definitely have an impact anyways given his intangibles...would love it if he decides to amp up the toughness.  Linden had this in spades - and I think we all hope he does too.  

 

When Ferland and Roussel get back it will change the tone of the games.  Watch JV start throwing his weight around more and even guys like EP and BB.    Miller and Horvat are very good all-round players - is expect they will join in too and it will make things a lot harder for our opposition.  

 

So yes the coaching does matter - Torts wanted everyone to drop done no matter who it was blocking shots - that’s going overboard as we don’t need injured players and really it doesn’t help the goalie much 90% of the time anyways.  

 

Also TG needs to set a pace that is sustainable.  It’s a long season.

I understand what your saying, and your reference to Probert etc. I dont disagree in principle.. But in todays NHL, team toughness doesnt necessarily revolve around a team having 1 tough guy that makes everyone feel tougher (Wilson, Ferland, Reaves etc.). I feel a team can have team toughness in absence of a true heavy/middleweight.

Example Boston, Tampa Bay, Dallas, St. Louis... all teams in my opinion exhibit team toughness without having a bonifide guy who answers the bell.

 

I agree that when Roussel and Ferland return the team will be a lot tougher to play against, but if Green doesn't let the dogs run, it wont change the teams identity. 

 

I guess time will tell once we're fully healthy.

[Viper007]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if we hire Babcock, don't we owe TML compensation?  And with his contract being $6 Mill + that'll probably be a first rounder.  No thank you to that.

[Alflives]

48 minutes ago, ChuckNORRIS4Cup said:

It's unfortunately not that easy, management is committed to Green so they won't pull a Toronto and fire him after a 6 game losing streak. If this team struggles through out the season and misses the playoffs by a bunch then I could see a coaching change, lots of things factor in as well, especially injuries and who Green is dealing with throughout the season could factor in as well. But if this team come trade deadline is in the playoff picture, with healthy players and then misses the playoffs then I could see Green gone. 

Coaches like Babs don't come up too often, especially when the timing is just right during our rebuild.  It's almost a certainty that Green will not be coaching this current core of players, when they reach their peak.  Why not get Babs now, just in case he's not there later?

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, Viper007 said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if we hire Babcock, don't we owe TML compensation?  And with his contract being $6 Mill + that'll probably be a first rounder.  No thank you to that.

Compensation for fired coaches disappeared just after we got the second from CBJ for Torts.  Leafs get NOTHING from us.    I think they still have to pay Babs all the money they still owe him too.  Screw the Loser Leafs and their fans and their smelly city.  (Don't tell Mrs. Alf though, please!)  

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, JayDangles said:

I understand what your saying, and your reference to Probert etc. I dont disagree in principle.. But in todays NHL, team toughness doesnt necessarily revolve around a team having 1 tough guy that makes everyone feel tougher (Wilson, Ferland, Reaves etc.). I feel a team can have team toughness in absence of a true heavy/middleweight.

Example Boston, Tampa Bay, Dallas, St. Louis... all teams in my opinion exhibit team toughness without having a bonifide guy who answers the bell.

 

I agree that when Roussel and Ferland return the team will be a lot tougher to play against, but if Green doesn't let the dogs run, it wont change the teams identity. 

 

I guess time will tell once we're fully healthy.

Players on those teams are tougher - I’m sure Boston’s tone will change a bit once Chara retires too.  I disagree with TB, they are a smaller team then most (even with Hedman) - and have yet to demonstrate “team toughness” in the playoffs at least.  Dallas and St Louis - again it’s the players.  We are not marshmallows anyone - and I hope that the support guys JB had added will rub off on the core.   Our core isn’t tough but isn’t soft either.  Time will tell how it plays out. 

[JayDangles]

3 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Players on those teams are tougher - I’m sure Boston’s tone will change a bit once Chara retires too.  I disagree with TB, they are a smaller team then most (even with Hedman) - and have yet to demonstrate “team toughness” in the playoffs at least.  Dallas and St Louis - again it’s the players.  We are not marshmallows anyone - and I hope that the support guys JB had added will rub off on the core.   Our core isn’t tough but isn’t soft either.  Time will tell how it plays out. 

Thats the heart of my point.... Are they really "tougher"? or do they play tougher? Is Marchand tougher than Horvat, or Miller.. I don't think so.... So why does Boston play tougher and Vancouver doesn't? My answer is Green, from what I've gathered, your answer is that the Canucks don't play tougher because Ferland and Roussel aren't in the lineup.. well Guddy was in the lineup last year and we played even softer....

 

Honestly, the common thread is that Green simply does not give guys the confidence and the leash to go out and play tough hockey. You think guys like Benn, Myers, Edler, Miller, Schaller, etc can't lower the friggin boom on guys! So why don't they?

[RonMexico]

3 minutes ago, JayDangles said:

Thats the heart of my point.... Are they really "tougher"? or do they play tougher? Is Marchand tougher than Horvat, or Miller.. I don't think so.... So why does Boston play tougher and Vancouver doesn't? My answer is Green, from what I've gathered, your answer is that the Canucks don't play tougher because Ferland and Roussel aren't in the lineup.. well Guddy was in the lineup last year and we played even softer....

 

Honestly, the common thread is that Green simply does not give guys the confidence and the leash to go out and play tough hockey. You think guys like Benn, Myers, Edler, Miller, Schaller, etc can't lower the friggin boom on guys! So why don't they?

 

Because any time a player gets laid out, the other team jumps the hitter and penalties ensue which can put you down a man. You hear it all the time from ex players. If it's a close game and you want to go rip that guy's head off the coach will tell you not to or you'll find your arse stapled to the bench.

 

'Tough hockey' has gone the way of the dinosaur. It's a by-gone era. Time for fans to let go of the past.

[IBatch]

18 minutes ago, JayDangles said:

Thats the heart of my point.... Are they really "tougher"? or do they play tougher? Is Marchand tougher than Horvat, or Miller.. I don't think so.... So why does Boston play tougher and Vancouver doesn't? My answer is Green, from what I've gathered, your answer is that the Canucks don't play tougher because Ferland and Roussel aren't in the lineup.. well Guddy was in the lineup last year and we played even softer....

 

Honestly, the common thread is that Green simply does not give guys the confidence and the leash to go out and play tough hockey. You think guys like Benn, Myers, Edler, Miller, Schaller, etc can't lower the friggin boom on guys! So why don't they?

Ha ha - I’ve read a dozen articles over the last decade about how Marchand is hiding behind his “big brother” - that being the toughest player to lace them up the last ten, maybe twenty years in Chara.   Again - it goes back to the actual players these guys play with.  If we had a McGratton or Brashear or Odjick sitting a few places down the bench the entire team gets a boost.  Especially nowadays when those guys hardly exist.   Do you think Marchand would lick other players thirty years ago or when there was no instagator penalty and every team had two or three guys that could fight well?  I hardly doubt it.  Same with Cookes antics - he’d be beaten to a pulp as soon as he came near anyone’s head.  

 

The coach does make a difference in these things undoubtedly.   But it really helps if you have someone who’s going to answer the bell when it rings - and right now all we have is Ferland and he’s in the infirmary.   Our team isn’t tough - but it’s a lot tougher then it used to be.   We haven’t really had a tough team since the WCE years and only until Brashear left.   AV didn’t make our team tougher then it was during his time here. It’s down to the players more then anything. 

[IBatch]

23 minutes ago, RonMexico said:

 

Because any time a player gets laid out, the other team jumps the hitter and penalties ensue which can put you down a man. You hear it all the time from ex players. If it's a close game and you want to go rip that guy's head off the coach will tell you not to or you'll find your arse stapled to the bench.

 

'Tough hockey' has gone the way of the dinosaur. It's a by-gone era. Time for fans to let go of the past.

Maybe.  I wish one team grabbed some balls and went out and went all PHI on the league - as in went out and found the toughest SOBs in the planet that had some skills and have things go full circle.    Maybe it will be Seattle.  And then the arms race start all over again.  In the past when teams were bottoming out it was commonplace they they’d go out and hire a bunch of tough customers- now with league parity they stopped doing it. B Among other reasons (finishing checks now often means you get a penalty).  I agree things have changed but it’s hard to let go of hockey that was elevated in that way  - our game is a violent sport - not a ballet. But at least everyone skates really really fast now. 

[CptCanuck16]

2 hours ago, RonMexico said:

 

Because any time a player gets laid out, the other team jumps the hitter and penalties ensue which can put you down a man. You hear it all the time from ex players. If it's a close game and you want to go rip that guy's head off the coach will tell you not to or you'll find your arse stapled to the bench.

 

'Tough hockey' has gone the way of the dinosaur. It's a by-gone era. Time for fans to let go of the past.

Last year's playoffs were brutal, in the first round anyway. Big hits and scrums after the whistle were the norm.  So there still is a place for it in the NHL.

 

While it would be nice to see a few more big hits during the regular season I don't mind the players saving the wear and tear on their bodies and avoiding injuries. It is a long grind and throwing shoulders into guys night after night takes a toll.