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[PGT] Colorado Avalanche at Vancouver Canucks | Mar. 06, 2020

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48 minutes ago, xereau said:

NM is more like Forsberg than Dionne heh.

Mac is a phenomenal player with the puck on his stick at high speed.  I don’t see any part of Mac’s game that is like Peter the Great.  Mac would be more like Sakic if comparing to an Av from that era.  Fast and deadly with puck on stick, but really doesn’t do much without the puck.  Peter the Great was fabulous in all aspects of the game, and he was mean.  

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2 minutes ago, Dats hockey said:

I was just saying those stats aren’t good, to the fact of the NHL isn’t full of people the same skill.

The people who defend the competition that is more skill will more likely be the once with the worst stats and comparing players based of that seem illogical. I don’t think they’re a premier shutdown line I didn’t say they where a premier shutdown line. I was in general saying those statistics SUCK.

You have a point in saying that those that face the opponent's best are going to have statistics that are less flattering as a result - and those stats can be highly misleading out of context - but that point is pretty much lost when you're talking about players like Beagle and Sutter - matchup guys that not only face the opposition's best night in and night out, but do so up tilted ice, with high dzone starts (higher than Horvat for example, which is where your point is lost in this context).  Fair enough to the point that you didn't refere to them as the premier shutdown line, I'm admittedly discussing the same matter with a few people (and my aging mind) attributed something to you that you didn't say.

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10 minutes ago, xereau said:

Forsberg was beastly mean.

And he faced savage treatment on a shift by shift basis. 

He was pure hard areas - fearless - took absurd amounts of punishment (and unlike the Sedins, he dished it out as well/retaliated).

Imagine what that guy 'could have' been had he not had to contend in the enabling of obstruction, hack and slash, crosscheck, clutch and grab era....

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2 hours ago, Alflives said:

I see our D next season like this.

Huggy Bear and Tanev

Eddy and Tree

OJ and Myers

Rafferty

Benn

 

Bone is going to push fir a spot too.  IMO, he’s better than Rafferty, Benn, Myers.

Rathbone handles the puck like Hughes does..

but you can only have so many D of that lighter stature before it starts to work against you.

 

edit. Player mix up earlier

Edited by SilentSam
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3 minutes ago, oldnews said:

You have a point in saying that those that face the opponent's best are going to have statistics that are less flattering as a result - and those stats can be highly misleading out of context - but that point is pretty much lost when you're talking about players like Beagle and Sutter - matchup guys that not only face the opposition's best night in and night out, but do so up tilted ice, with high dzone starts (higher than Horvat for example, which is where your point is lost in this context).  Fair enough to the point that you didn't refere to them as the premier shutdown line, I'm admittedly discussing the same matter with a few people (and my aging mind) attributed something to you that you didn't say.

ON why would a guy like Draisatl be a minus player?  We all know he’s great, but is he lacking in something 5 on 5?  I compare LD to Pastrnak and I see similar kinds of players, but Pasta is a huge plus 5 on 5.  Heck, Panarin is great too, and he’s a huge plus.  I don’t get why LD isn’t a plus player.  Is this the Marcel Dionne thing?  Great player, but crappy teammates?  

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1 minute ago, SilentSam said:

Rafferty handles the puck like Hughes does..

but you can only have so many D of that lighter stature before it starts to work against you.

I think Rafferty is a mature man; he’s 25.  He’s about 200 pounds.  If he can handle the pace of the NHL, he could be a really good player for us.  

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2 hours ago, janisahockeynut said:

On the side note...……...I am talking about a player that can play....aka Dillion type

Big, decent, with a snarl

I would like the Canucks to have one more

Me too but I don't see anyone outside of Lind that's even close.  I don't think that Gadjovich will end up being more then a fringe NHL player.  

I was just saying that I didn't like have Gudbranson as our main deterrent for example.  He would pick a fight and then be thrown out for a minimum of 5 minutes if not longer.  There were a few games where he got a misconduct and then we had to play almost the entire game with only 5 d-men.  

As soon as we find another PKer, we can start replacing Sutter and Eriksson in our lineup with someone tougher.  

Dillon's not a bad player but he won't strike the fear into anyone.  Jett Woo could very conceivably develop into a Dillon. 

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20 hours ago, Alflives said:

ON why would a guy like Draisatl be a minus player?  We all know he’s great, but is he lacking in something 5 on 5?  I compare LD to Pastrnak and I see similar kinds of players, but Pasta is a huge plus 5 on 5.  Heck, Panarin is great too, and he’s a huge plus.  I don’t get why LD isn’t a plus player.  Is this the Marcel Dionne thing?  Great player, but crappy teammates?  

I think Pasta is a decent to good two way player - and he plays with one of the world's best two way players....

 

Draisaitl, on the other hand, plays with McMe1st .  Mc plays some of, if not the most opportune minutes on the Coil (next to James Neal) - and yes, he can drive offense, but he also gives up 3.7 on ice goals against per 60, the worst on Edmonton.    For a guy that plays with Draisaitl (and Kass) - gets 55.8% ozone starts - to be below the water mark on 'possession' (49.2% corsi)....not sure that McMe wastes much of his energy on attention to detail without the puck.  He's a high risk player.

 

McMe and Draisaitl have 60 powerplay assists and 27 powerplay goals between them...87 powerplay pts....

 

I don't know how much of the 'minus' in that context can be attributed to McMe and how much to Draisaitl - but I would say that both of them have 'developed' at the NHL level in a notoriously pond-hockey environment - and I wouldn't be surprised if that changes somewhat now that they have Tippett there.....At the same time, the sheer volume of powerplays and production that they get from them can't necessarily be entirely separated from their 5 on 5 game - so the advantages of that upside might not show entirely in their 5 on 5 goal metrics - when they draw and capitalize on that many penalties (McMe1st is, after all, an elite embellisher and whiner, always begging for calls...)

Edited by oldnews
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51 minutes ago, oldnews said:

Where I do agree is in the point of moving Virtanen up to Horvat's line - I think Virtanen's defensive game is generally under-rated around here (although less so than previously - people are starting to see his value - as a two way player).  I'm not sure that line gives up much if anything defensively with Virtanen up there - I think the point of using Virtanen elsewhere is more for balance than it is a 'heirarchy' - and really Virtanen is playing more minutes than LE on a nightly basis - so whether you see him on the "2nd line" or not, he's above Eriksson in the 'pecking' order regardless.

Jake's defensive game is definitely getting better, but he's still caught on the wrong side of the puck sometimes and whiffs on opposition's passes that he's trying to prevent.  
I actually think that Jake's best games come when he gets moved up to the 2nd and 1st line during the game as opposed to starting on it.  

@EdgarM if you look at the last 5 games (I was too lazy to go further back) you'll see that Jake Virtanen has had MORE ice time then Loui Eriksson in EVERY one of those games.  Loui plays a regular PK shift too.  

Jake's coming along just fine, he's having to be constantly engaged to get his ice time and that's a good thing.  If anyone knows how to use Jake well, it's Green as they go back a long time now to Utica.  Jake has said numerous times that Green has been a big part in him maturing as a person and a player.  

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27 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Mac is a phenomenal player with the puck on his stick at high speed.  I don’t see any part of Mac’s game that is like Peter the Great.  Mac would be more like Sakic if comparing to an Av from that era.  Fast and deadly with puck on stick, but really doesn’t do much without the puck.  Peter the Great was fabulous in all aspects of the game, and he was mean.  

mercifully, MacKinnon has some holes in his game - ie he's a pretty weak faceoff guy (at 43%) and takes a lot of draws - if he started with the puck another 10% of the time, he would be that much more threatening (although he does play a lot with Landeskog, who's a strong faceoff guy = not sure why they elect to have NM take nearly twice as many draws considering but perhaps they have their reasons)..

Mercifully as well - that line without Rantanen isn't quite as daunting (although they've racked up a lot of wins with him out of the lineup regardless).

 

Speaking of Sakic - he was such an electric, fun player to watch - like NM - and gotta hand it to him - he's building a pretty appropriately exciting team to watch.

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1 minute ago, oldnews said:

mercifully, MacKinnon has some holes in his game - ie he's a pretty weak faceoff guy (at 43%) and takes a lot of draws - if he started with the puck another 10% of the time, he would be that much more threatening (although he does play a lot with Landeskog, who's a strong faceoff guy = not sure why they elect to have NM take nearly twice as many draws considering but perhaps they have their reasons)..

Mercifully as well - that line without Rantanen isn't quite as daunting (although they've racked up a lot of wins with him out of the lineup regardless).

 

Speaking of Sakic - he was such an electric, fun player to watch - like NM - and gotta hand it to him - he's building a pretty appropriately exciting team to watch.

Interesting that Sakic goes out and gets a mean cuss like Kadri to play behind Mac.  It’s almost like he understands the value in having some really nasty guys playing top minutes.  Was Zadorov already with the Avs, or did Sakic bring him in too?  

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10 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Interesting that Sakic goes out and gets a mean cuss like Kadri to play behind Mac.  It’s almost like he understands the value in having some really nasty guys playing top minutes.  Was Zadorov already with the Avs, or did Sakic bring him in too?  

Sakic has been GM+ since 2013 - he brought Zadorov in.

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48 minutes ago, Alflives said:

ON why would a guy like Draisatl be a minus player?  We all know he’s great, but is he lacking in something 5 on 5?  I compare LD to Pastrnak and I see similar kinds of players, but Pasta is a huge plus 5 on 5.  Heck, Panarin is great too, and he’s a huge plus.  I don’t get why LD isn’t a plus player.  Is this the Marcel Dionne thing?  Great player, but crappy teammates?  

Partially due to crappy teammates. One guy playing with Bergeron, the best two way center in the last 10 years as well as Marchand another great two way winger and the other guy with either McDavid or RNH and some not so great defensive wingers.

 

I don't think Drai himself is a great defensive player. 

 

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32 minutes ago, VancouverHabitant said:

Jake's defensive game is definitely getting better, but he's still caught on the wrong side of the puck sometimes and whiffs on opposition's passes that he's trying to prevent.  
I actually think that Jake's best games come when he gets moved up to the 2nd and 1st line during the game as opposed to starting on it.  

@EdgarM if you look at the last 5 games (I was too lazy to go further back) you'll see that Jake Virtanen has had MORE ice time then Loui Eriksson in EVERY one of those games.  Loui plays a regular PK shift too.  

Jake's coming along just fine, he's having to be constantly engaged to get his ice time and that's a good thing.  If anyone knows how to use Jake well, it's Green as they go back a long time now to Utica.  Jake has said numerous times that Green has been a big part in him maturing as a person and a player.  

But the "fire Green" guys keep saying he's stunted his development...   Surely they can't be wrong and Green and Virtanen right?

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2 hours ago, WHL rocks said:

I disagree. Horvat is the captain and it should stay that way.

 

Wait 2 more years Horvat will be in his prime and Selke nominee.

 

 

I think you're a dreamer lol. He's never been as good defensively as we rate him. Never had the tenacity of a Kesler, never had the deception of Datsyuk, has never had elite pickpocket ing skills, never has been an agitator... 

 

I really don't know what qualities he has that'd classify as a selke nominee. He's not even the best defensive forward on the team. The only shining quality he has that elevates him to that status is his faceoff ability. Every few games he abandons a player that leads to a goal. Not gonna see Bergeron do that anytime soon. 

 

He was however much better the past 2 years defensively. He's having an off year in my books defensively. Used to be a lot stronger along the walls and be more tenacious. Never been elite, but he was much better. A couple games ago we saw that tenaciousness (I think against Boston?). 

 

Defensive players I really gravitate toward. The heart and soul guys like Motte and Miller. I haven't been impressed with Bo this year at all even with his decent stats. Not the team driver that he used to be. Could be due to his linemates though. 

 

Can't deny his playing ability when there's an empty net on the other end though! 

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19 minutes ago, khay said:

Partially due to crappy teammates. One guy playing with Bergeron, the best two way center in the last 10 years as well as Marchand another great two way winger and the other guy with either McDavid or RNH and some not so great defensive wingers.

 

I don't think Drai himself is a great defensive player. 

 

As somebody who watches Drai regularly cuz I live near Edmonton, he's inconsistent defensively. Some nights he's an absolute beast and can dispossess the puck easily, other nights he takes the night off and cheats offensively. During their long losing streak, Drai was a liability defensively and absolutely got wrecked on his +/-, most of the year though he's been pretty good. Better than previous years. Much more of a two way forward this year than prior. 

 

I think in one month he had the worst +/- in the NHL or something like that if I remember correctly. 

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3 hours ago, Alflives said:

Tryamkin and Dillon would be excellent additions for next season.  I see our 

D having Rathbone on it next season too.

Hughes

Tanev

Edler

Myers

Bone

Tree

Dillon

 

(Maybe OJ?) instead of Dillon. 

I don't see how we can leave Rafferty off the big club next season

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