Coronavirus outbreak

[Gawdzukes]

3 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

? we have the need for a number of different vaccines every year. Whats the problem with making them in Canada? 

Which ones do we need? Enough to completely change our country manufacturing program? Won't that just make us really poor, which is why we don't do it in the first place? The whole world is running out of Covid vaccines, it's not like like this is a political problem or anything.

 

Like I said I don't really care what the government spends our money on, I have no say anyway. I think it would be better spent on water, building materials, infrastructure, education, and daily healthcare though. You do realize we're going to have to make major concessions to make that happen right? Does it really accomplish anything, we weren't running out of vaccines before Covid ... were we?

[JM_]

1 minute ago, Gawdzukes said:

Which ones do we need? Enough to completely change our country manufacturing program? Won't that just make us really poor, which is why we don't do it in the first place? The whole world is running out of Covid vaccines, it's not like like this is a political problem or anything.

 

Like I said I don't really care what the government spends our money on, I have no say anyway. I think it would be better spent on water, building materials, infrastructure, education, and daily healthcare though. You do realize we're going to have to make major concessions to make that happen right? Does it really accomplish anything, we weren't running out of vaccines before Covid ... were we?

but this is the kind of thinking that left us at the whim of Trump. Its also not an either-or situation. Its not vaccine production vs. education. 

[JM_]

4 minutes ago, UKNuck96 said:

I agree in principle however the simple answer is cost.

 

in a non pandemic environment where the global economy isn’t Borked it would be cheaper and more efficient use of tax payer money to import them from larger producers.

 

that said though there is benefit to having them done in house, along with the jobs and expertise it brings to an area. However the question is - would it be financially competitive to have the production in Canada? 

those cheaper drugs come at the cost of our internal health capacity and independence, and retaining high tech industries in Canada. 

 

We haven't seen the full costs yet either, but somehow I doubt Moderna is cutting Canada a deal, e.g. 

[RUPERTKBD]

12 hours ago, Jaimito said:

Case drop in Prince Rupert is encouraging. 

 

 

 

It is and I'd guess it's because almost all of us old folks have had our initial shot.

 

Still, in light of the reports of younger people being more susceptible to the mutant strains, coupled with the fact that many of the 20 somethings still haven't gotten their shots is cause for concern. We're not anywhere near ready to take our foot off the brake here on the North Coast....

[RUPERTKBD]

3 hours ago, Gawdzukes said:

It will be a waste of money when vaccines aren't needed in two years but whatever, we are all faced to waste our money on whatever the government chooses every year anyway.. If every Canadian gives up $1000 a year we can produce useless vaccines all we want. It wouldn't surprise me. Totally reactionary and useless, in my opinion.

 

Our money would be better spent taking care of actual sick people.

I disagree.

 

Two years ago, your argument would have made sense.....but now we know these novel viruses can come out of the blue. What makes us think that when Covid 19 is no longer an issue, we won't be dealing with Covid 23 or 24 down the road?

 

I think Jimmy's argument is on point: If we had the manufacturing capability that the Americans do, we'd be much further ahead on Covid 19 and much better prepared to deal with future epidemics, or even pandemics.

 

In regards to your last paragraph, I'm of the opinion that it's preferable to try and prevent illness, rather than treat it...

Edited April 25, 2021 by RUPERTKBD

[Gurn]

Amazing, that just as the fire dies down, people want to sell off the fire dept.

" Fire's out they say, so who needs firefighters".

[thedestroyerofworlds]

One can hope that this is on the horizon.  Traditional ANZAC Day match between Essendon and Collingwood.

 

 

https://www.skysports.com/more-sports/other-sports/news/29877/12286516/melbourne-cricket-ground-houses-78113-fans-for-australian-rules-match-global-record-since-coronavirus-pandemic-began

 

[Gawdzukes]

17 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

but this is the kind of thinking that left us at the whim of Trump. Its also not an either-or situation. Its not vaccine production vs. education. 

I guess we disagree there. I think it kind of is. Why don't just make everything then while we're at it if it's so cheap and easy?

 

Just because Trump is an idiot it doesn't mean we need to blow our load fixing something that doesn't need fixing.

 

Anyways, cheers Jimmy. Take care and have a good day. I just learned my friend's brother just died of Covid. I've got to go help him finish mudding and painting a house for his client so he can fly to Vancouver to be with his mother tonight. 

 

Stay safe everyone.

[coho8888]

8 minutes ago, RUPERTKBD said:

I disagree.

 

Two years ago, your argument would have made sense.....but now we know these novel viruses can come out of the blue. What makes us think that when Covid 19 is no longer an issue, we won't be dealing with Covid 23 or 24 down the road?

 

I think Jimmy's argument is on point: If we had the manufacturing capability that the Americans do, we'd be much further ahead on Covid 19 and much better prepared to deal with future epidemics, or even pandemics.

 

In regards to your last paragraph, I'm of the opinion that it's preferable to try and prevent illness, rather than treat it...

Also, who says we can't be an net exporter of vaccines ourselves?  Not every country wants to deal with the US.  We could, with the help of the UK supply all the commonwealth countries.  These viruses are here to stay just like there will always be Earthquakes, Tsunamis, Hurricanes etc..  

[Gawdzukes]

12 minutes ago, RUPERTKBD said:

I disagree.

 

Two years ago, your argument would have made sense.....but now we know these novel viruses can come out of the blue. What makes us think that when Covid 19 is no longer an issue, we won't be dealing with Covid 23 or 24 down the road?

 

I think Jimmy's argument is on point: If we had the manufacturing capability that the Americans do, we'd be much further ahead on Covid 19 and much better prepared to deal with future epidemics, or even pandemics.

 

In regards to your last paragraph, I'm of the opinion that it's preferable to try and prevent illness, rather than treat it...

Mostly just the fact we've only used it once in history to treat an epidemic as far as I know and that was in 1980. I'm probably wrong but I don't think we're going to need it in the future. I'm an optimist though.

 

Like I told Jimmy, the decision to move it outside was economical. I have no problem with bringing it back if the general population agrees. I think it's just a waste of money. It's not like we don't have access to necessary products if we don't produce them ourselves.

[Sharpshooter]

18 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

I guess we disagree there. I think it kind of is. Why don't just make everything then while we're at it if it's so cheap and easy?

 

Just because Trump is an idiot it doesn't mean we need to blow our load fixing something that doesn't need fixing.

 

Anyways, cheers Jimmy. Take care and have a good day. I just learned my friend's brother just died of Covid. I've got to go help him finish mudding and painting a house for his client so he can fly to Vancouver to be with his mother tonight. 

 

Stay safe everyone.

It’s not a waste of money to build infrastructure that will allow Canadians to respond to other variances of other SARS/MERS etc viruses. 
 

This current pandemic has shown that Canada had to rely on European manufacturers whose govt ultimately out an export ban leaving us to not receive vaccines which obstructed Canada’s vaccine rollout/distribution. 
 

Canada had to rely on the goodwill of the US to make up for shortfalls. Reliance on goodwill and handouts is not the way one of the wealthiest and most scientifically advanced countries in the world should operate in a time where citizens on a mass scale can die. 
 

Having Bio-tech infrastructure is anything but cheap and easy and will take time to build up but it’s most certainly worth it to have a fighting chance for the viruses of the future. And there will be more. No one should delude themselves about that.  
 

 

[Gurn]

Vaccinne are not just about covid/mers etc.

There are still all the childhood vacs. like polio/diptheria/tetnus and so on.

[Gawdzukes]

6 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

It’s not a waste of money to build infrastructure that will allow Canadians to respond to other variances of other SARS/MERS etc viruses. 
 

This current pandemic has shown that Canada had to rely on European manufacturers whose govt ultimately out an export ban leaving us to not receive vaccines which obstructed Canada’s vaccine rollout/distribution. 
 

Canada had to rely on the goodwill of the US to make up for shortfalls. Reliance on goodwill and handouts is not the way one of the wealthiest and most scientifically advanced countries in the world should operate in a time where citizens on a mass scale can die. 
 

Having Bio-tech infrastructure is anything but cheap and easy and will take time to build up but it’s most certainly worth it to have a fighting chance for the viruses of the future. And there will be more. No one should delude themselves about that.  
 

 

I guess I'm wrong. It's all above my pay grade. 

[UKNuck96]

49 minutes ago, gurn said:

Amazing, that just as the fire dies down, people want to sell off the fire dept.

" Fire's out they say, so who needs firefighters".

It’s not as simplistic as that. With a finite pot resources need to be allocated accordingly. Using the fire analogy if the event was a 1/100 year event you don’t need to staff a fire service to handle that every year. 
 

if however it’s a twice a week even that’s a different issue. 
 

it’s about setting a baseline risk you accept. It’s the same principle used in flood defences/decisions to put them in place. They are not designed to stop every flood, or every tidal search but to stop within a risk criteria.

 

The issue with having your own biomedical production is similar, do you need to be manufacturing say tetanus jabs, Measles, mumps, ruebella, tb etc. In reality there is already enough global production of these and it’s unlikely there would be much benefit. 
 

if you want it to ensure there is enough production capacity for the next pandemic event, then you have to work out the impact and likelihood and cost according. 
 

the fact is even if you were able to provide vaccines in Canada it doesn’t mean end to end production happens there. The industry is global and specialisation is spread across the world and you will find that offers source material required may come from one or two places globally so you many still be left short even if the manufacturing capacity is there 

[JM_]

1 hour ago, Gawdzukes said:

I guess we disagree there. I think it kind of is. Why don't just make everything then while we're at it if it's so cheap and easy?

because we train people anyway and then send them off fo the US much of the time. We have the capacity for advanced heath product manufacturing in Canada, makes no sense not to do it. 

 

Sure we can pretend we are saving a little on each purchase, but the cost of that is being dependent on the good will of other countries for our health, and then we also export out all those good paying jobs.

 

1 hour ago, Gawdzukes said:

 

Just because Trump is an idiot it doesn't mean we need to blow our load fixing something that doesn't need fixing.

 

Anyways, cheers Jimmy. Take care and have a good day. I just learned my friend's brother just died of Covid. I've got to go help him finish mudding and painting a house for his client so he can fly to Vancouver to be with his mother tonight. 

 

Stay safe everyone.

sorry to hear that, you have my sincere condolences. 

[JM_]

24 minutes ago, UKNuck96 said:

It’s not as simplistic as that. With a finite pot resources need to be allocated accordingly. Using the fire analogy if the event was a 1/100 year event you don’t need to staff a fire service to handle that every year. 
 

if however it’s a twice a week even that’s a different issue. 
 

it’s about setting a baseline risk you accept. It’s the same principle used in flood defences/decisions to put them in place. They are not designed to stop every flood, or every tidal search but to stop within a risk criteria.

 

The issue with having your own biomedical production is similar, do you need to be manufacturing say tetanus jabs, Measles, mumps, ruebella, tb etc. In reality there is already enough global production of these and it’s unlikely there would be much benefit. 
 

if you want it to ensure there is enough production capacity for the next pandemic event, then you have to work out the impact and likelihood and cost according. 
 

the fact is even if you were able to provide vaccines in Canada it doesn’t mean end to end production happens there. The industry is global and specialisation is spread across the world and you will find that offers source material required may come from one or two places globally so you many still be left short even if the manufacturing capacity is there 

there's an opportunity cost to cheap. Like I was saying above to G., you lose health independence and you also lose the jobs. Its not as simple as a bottle of one drug is $10 less, you lose all that GDP from the production, jobs and taxes. 

 

There's a good reason other countries want high paying manufacturing jobs and its not so they lose out in the end.

 

We don't need to be a global powerhouse in every area of Pharma, but we should at least have the capacity to not rely on goodwill as our health strategy. 

 

 

[RUPERTKBD]

1 hour ago, Gawdzukes said:

Mostly just the fact we've only used it once in history to treat an epidemic as far as I know and that was in 1980. I'm probably wrong but I don't think we're going to need it in the future. I'm an optimist though.

 

Like I told Jimmy, the decision to move it outside was economical. I have no problem with bringing it back if the general population agrees. I think it's just a waste of money. It's not like we don't have access to necessary products if we don't produce them ourselves.

I'll admit that I don't know what the reason was, but you're probably correct. That doesn't mean I agree that it was a good idea. Lots of poor decisions are made because of economic factors.

 

It's basically insurance. I wonder how many homeowners would eschew House Insurance if the Mortgage companies didn't require it....I mean, I've been paying for Fire Insurance since I bought my house 15 years ago....but even though I haven't had cause to make a claim, I still don't see it as a waste of money...

[RUPERTKBD]

47 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

I guess I'm wrong. It's all above my pay grade. 

I don't think "wrong" is the right word to use. You have a differing opinion....(and it's above most of our pay grades)

 

You may be absolutely correct in that manufacturing vaccines ends up being a net loss that is passed on to the taxpayer....where the difference of opinion lies, is that some people think it's worth it to pay for the capacity....

[4petesake]

3 minutes ago, RUPERTKBD said:

I don't think "wrong" is the right word to use. You have a differing opinion....(and it's above most of our pay grades)

 

You may be absolutely correct in that manufacturing vaccines ends up being a net loss that is passed on to the taxpayer....where the difference of opinion lies, is that some people think it's worth it to pay for the capacity....

Tough to calculate but the loss to the Canadian economy in being able to open things up with a vaccinated population at the earliest point compared to being at the mercy of foreign supply timeline may be huge. Given the chance to put our fate in our own hands is a choice I take every time.

[JM_]

21 minutes ago, RUPERTKBD said:

I don't think "wrong" is the right word to use. You have a differing opinion....(and it's above most of our pay grades)

not if you do it for free 

 

Quote

 

You may be absolutely correct in that manufacturing vaccines ends up being a net loss that is passed on to the taxpayer....where the difference of opinion lies, is that some people think it's worth it to pay for the capacity....

 

we've raced to the bottom on pricing for a lot of our manufactured goods, to the benefit of other countries.

 

We could really apply this to anything, e.g., why not just bring in 1000s of workers from offshore to do our healthcare delivery cheaper and do away with all those high priced union jobs? why hire more teachers when we can just do it online? you can apply this thinking to anything we do.

 

I've watched this play out in health tech my entire career, we develop great new products, get no support from the feds and it ultimately gets sold off to the US and elsewhere.  

 

 

 

Edited April 25, 2021 by Jimmy McGill