Are the Canucks too much of a Featherweight team to push through the playoffs?

[spook007]

1 hour ago, ba;;isticsports said:

I have found that frustrating to watch myself, myself and we always seem to get the instigator while other teams don't. and wonder why it is this way?

 The Marchant incident brought up earlier was obviously allowed to happen, because the ref didn't want to give the Canucks a PP (which they excelled at) and were waiting for Daniel to do something and call them both,

Why would they do this though?

Does the NHL have a plan too? What is better for the image, strength and growth of the league, with who wins ?

Dislike the owner?

Dislike the Statue of our team glorifying a coach throwing in the towel frustrated because of it doesn't matter how he coaches his team , they will call the game differently?

Dislike the bad publicity that Vancouver gives the NHL when we lose in the playoffs with riots (I am embarrassed myself and was so upset last time, i almost went downtown to straighten out those losers

I feel if we get another Gino type the refs would give us calls at pivotal times of a game to cost us games, even having team toughness i feel we won't get away with and why we tend to walk away? Green never played as a softy and i am sure he would like to have his players play with fire, but those are not the type he was provided with and has to use what is available to him and utilize them in the best way he can. We seem to be damned if we do and damned if we don't play tough.

Most likely will have to have a deep strong fast durable team that can beat the other team and refs and a little luck to win it all as teams still require

Think you hit the nail on the head a few time with those examples... 

The statue won't do much favours amongst the referees, but the NHL should deal with the refs, if they sort there were an issue at any level.

Think the fact Nucks only turned the other cheek, was of great frustration to the NHL, as despite what they say about moving towards safer environment, the NHL as a product is about finesse as well as aggression and violence... It sells... 

Its great to see Bruins getting called on their antics, and even better to listen their coach crying foul... One of the most annoying moment I recall in hockey, was listening to Juliens press conferences in 2011...

 

A Gino would probably cost us games, but more players like Miller, who has skill and can play hard is very much needed. Hope Podz will be another in that mould... That they are able to drop the gloves and be good at it, would be a massive bonus...

[Ballisticsports.]

2 minutes ago, spook007 said:

Think you hit the nail on the head a few time with those examples... 

The statue won't do much favours amongst the referees, but the NHL should deal with the refs, if they sort there were an issue at any level.

Think the fact Nucks only turned the other cheek, was of great frustration to the NHL, as despite what they say about moving towards safer environment, the NHL as a product is about finesse as well as aggression and violence... It sells... 

Its great to see Bruins getting called on their antics, and even better to listen their coach crying foul... One of the most annoying moment I recall in hockey, was listening to Juliens press conferences in 2011...

 

A Gino would probably cost us games, but more players like Miller, who has skill and can play hard is very much needed. Hope Podz will be another in that mould... That they are able to drop the gloves and be good at it, would be a massive bonus...

I think the statue infuriates the league officials more than todays referees though

I can't recall when the Canucks would some out the aggressor and get retaliatory calls for a team taking offense to the hits?

It would be nice to see the Canucks come out hitting and if they start calling penalties then win with skill and finesse the rest of the way and win with a multifunctional team that can play both ways if needed (What team doesn't want that tough)

[CaptKirk888]

5 hours ago, IBatch said:

Absolutely.    There is nothing wrong with the Sedins.   Liked what Torts had to say about them, they were tough players who took a lot of abuse and kept on ticking,  and it wasn't like they didn't use their sticks.   Agree with EP too, appears to have a little pushback but have to wonder how him and QHs would have managed during the Dead Puck era when stickwork and holding wasn't called nearly as often.    Game is changing.   Smaller players, size wise looked at a graph yesterday youd have to go all the way back to the late 80's to get a decent comp. 

Both Theo Fluery (5’6” 182lb) and Martin St. Louis (5’8 182lb) were both talented league leading scorers during the dead puck era.

[spook007]

4 minutes ago, ba;;isticsports said:

I think the statue infuriates the league officials more than todays referees though

I can't recall when the Canucks would some out the aggressor and get retaliatory calls for a team taking offense to the hits?

It would be nice to see the Canucks come out hitting and if they start calling penalties then win with skill and finesse the rest of the way and win with a multifunctional team that can play both ways if needed (What team doesn't want that tough)

Every team would love that... Iginla and Benn type players... 

[aqua59]

20 hours ago, Hairy Kneel said:

McTavish instead of Johnson please. 

I'm sure Johns would do good in the regular season but it's about the playoffs, yes I said it. It's all about the playoffs baby! 

Our speedy skill of Petie, Hogsy, even Bess and Pears could use some help retrieving pucks. A couple more skilled role guys. 

On that note I'd like to see Woo on the 4th as a banger AND as a utility guy. 

Why finish so many games at 5 defenseman. Plus if Huggy gets rocked they could switch for a shift or two. 

How many playoff games were effected by losing a Dman. Especially in a long hard fought series. Dmen are more valuable and it's not good losing a Dman in a playoff game and messing up the pairings. 

Damn straight!

[aqua59]

17 hours ago, UKNuck96 said:

Then putting it bluntly they are chatting $&!#, a quick search tells you that Canucks are pretty middle of the pack in terms of weight.

 

 

as to being to small 

 

tampa bay roster average height is 185.47 cm, the small Canucks 186.9

 

i wonder what resident stato @oldnews has to say on the matter 

What do you watching? Who cares what some stats say, this team is too small, soft, not built for much .

 

Putting it bluntly you have clue about this team or hockey! 

 

I'm tired of this soft team nd barely hits.

 

You think showing some stats in comparison of Tampa? Lol

[KKnight]

Yes, but I think that is going to change quickly. I'm hoping we can possibly snag Boone Jenner in a trade this offseason. He would help in this area, along with Podz. Our back end could be tougher. Hamonic helps in this area, but our Left side is pure skill and not enough bite. A player like Oleksiak, could help tremendously in that area and on the PK.

[RU SERIOUS]

4 hours ago, spook007 said:

Think you hit the nail on the head a few time with those examples... 

The statue won't do much favours amongst the referees, but the NHL should deal with the refs, if they sort there were an issue at any level.

Think the fact Nucks only turned the other cheek, was of great frustration to the NHL, as despite what they say about moving towards safer environment, the NHL as a product is about finesse as well as aggression and violence... It sells... 

Its great to see Bruins getting called on their antics, and even better to listen their coach crying foul... One of the most annoying moment I recall in hockey, was listening to Juliens press conferences in 2011...

 

A Gino would probably cost us games, but more players like Miller, who has skill and can play hard is very much needed. Hope Podz will be another in that mould... That they are able to drop the gloves and be good at it, would be a massive bonus...

Agree. a few more Millar types and a couple of Jovo type d's and we're in business.

[Junkyard Dog]

Nobody is looking over their shoulder for anyone we have on our team. Teams can get away with a lot more with the Canucks because the only guy that can hold people accountable is a young Zack who's still struggling to become a regular.

 

The bottom 6 and D-core need a little fix up. The team needs the right sort of veterans to lead us physically. Ferland would have been this if not for injury.

 

This team isn't soft but there's not enough pushback and physicality to help us become a solid playoff team. Without a solid enough and well-rounded D-core/bottom 6 we will continue to get spanked by the Vegas-types. 

 

We have some youngsters(Woo/Gadjo/Mac) that could help address this but they need a few solid physical veterans(Ferland-type) to lead them. 

[48MPHSlapShot]

I think a lot of it has to do with the team mindset as well. This team isn't particularly small, but I'd be lying if I said we weren't one of the easier teams in the league to play against. Obviously bringing in some bigger bodies would help, but I think it goes deeper than that. Why is this team.so afraid to push back? Is it a coaching issue? A leadership issue? Are players afraid of taking injuries? Is it a cultural issue?

 

Point is that I think there's more to it than just "We need bigger guys". 

[GB5]

Canucks are in the middle of the pack and I think they are ok but they need to get back to the team toughness mentality that some of the dominant teams of old had.

 

Those team stuck up for each other no matter what and had a lot of character guys that could duke it out if they had to. We have those character guys but they need to play Case in point......MacEwen should be a regular.

[EddieVedder]

4 hours ago, KKnight said:

Yes, but I think that is going to change quickly. I'm hoping we can possibly snag Boone Jenner in a trade this offseason. He would help in this area, along with Podz. Our back end could be tougher. Hamonic helps in this area, but our Left side is pure skill and not enough bite. A player like Oleksiak, could help tremendously in that area and on the PK.

Good ideas but Jenner wont come cheap.  Guys a beast of a player than can play in a lot of situations.

[EddieVedder]

10 hours ago, RU SERIOUS said:

While Internal toughness is one of many attributes required to be successful in winning the Stanley cup, physical size (roughness) & toughness of a team has and always will be one of the very most important attributes required to push through the playoffs - all the way.  If you've been around long enough, which it sounds like you have, you know that as the playoff rounds progress and certainly in the final series, the level of physical play (and I'm not just talking about fighting) intensifies and rises to a peak and is usually amongst the top determining factors on who will win the cup.   

In 2011 that's what killed us, as Boston took over physical play after Rome P'd them off and woke them up and they severely abused our players to the point of disgust (Remember Kesler being constantly whacked in the back of his legs by Chara in front of the net & Sedin being punched square in the face and standing there like a statue doing nothing about it or how about Boychuk taking Raymond out in the boards - for good - and I can go on with many, many, more examples).

 

So, its safe to say we are lacking dearly with that type of physical pushback on this current Canucks roster.  As for last year, we were out muscled and severely outplayed in many games and especially in the LV series and if it wasn't for "divine intervention" / stellar-goaltending, we would have been slaughtered, as we were badly out muscled, outplayed and outshot in most of that series as you know.

 

So as for those players you listed above, excluding Demko who is a goalie,  I'd say the only forward with that ability to play with grit and physical toughness is Miler and I'll be polite and include Horvat (just for you) as every now & then he shakes off the "Swedish Finesse Syndrome" he was instilled with by the Sedins and gets involved physically.    As for the other 4; Hogs, Boeser and Hughes, they are all young Finesse players, or too small/slight or don't get involved with heavy duty physical play, and Pod's is an unproven/untested NHL player and should not even be mentioned at this time.  So on a 21 man roster that is pretty sad and skimpy and why this team needs to bulk, size  & toughen up a bit because small regular season - fun to watch Finesse players will never be enough to win the cup and "I'll bet the house" on that and I think you know that too!

 

Good post.

Actually watching finesse gets old fast.  I want to see a team that wins battles in the trenches.  Thats hockey and way more exciting than a few finesse guys prancing around with the puck.

 

[UKNuck96]

5 hours ago, aqua59 said:

What do you watching? Who cares what some stats say, this team is too small, soft, not built for much .

 

Putting it bluntly you have clue about this team or hockey! 

 

I'm tired of this soft team nd barely hits.

 

You think showing some stats in comparison of Tampa? Lol

I’m not saying this team is tough I’m refuting that they are the second lightest  team, they are not. 
 

The question wasn’t they are not tough enough but they are too light. 

[EddieVedder]

10 hours ago, GarthButcher5 said:

Canucks are in the middle of the pack and I think they are ok but they need to get back to the team toughness mentality that some of the dominant teams of old had.

 

Those team stuck up for each other no matter what and had a lot of character guys that could duke it out if they had to. We have those character guys but they need to play Case in point......MacEwen should be a regular.

Mac, Gadj, Lind, Graovac are the types we need to become regulars.  Even Hawryluk for the 4th line.

Toss these Veseys and Boyds out.

 

 

[IBatch]

19 hours ago, CaptKirk888 said:

Both Theo Fluery (5’6” 182lb) and Martin St. Louis (5’8 182lb) were both talented league leading scorers during the dead puck era.

Theo was around way before the dead puck era.   And more like 5'4" 142lbs when he joined the league in 1989.   Was a thorn in the Canucks side from his first season.   Nothing but respect for him.   Was diagnosed with crohns myself a few years after him, cut and snip and didn't ever stop trying, same as him.   A lot of fight in that guy.   Didn't beef up until later in his career.   He reminds me of Bobby Clarke mini, someone who played way bigger then his size (Chelios is a good comp too) and never gave up. Without his demons he might even be in the HHOF.   St. Louis was one of the best forwards in 2000.   Cut his teeth in the dead puck era, played well past it too.   Great examples of little guys that could though.   Same as Ronning.   

[IBatch]

21 hours ago, RU SERIOUS said:

While Internal toughness is one of many attributes required to be successful in winning the Stanley cup, physical size (roughness) & toughness of a team has and always will be one of the very most important attributes required to push through the playoffs - all the way.  If you've been around long enough, which it sounds like you have, you know that as the playoff rounds progress and certainly in the final series, the level of physical play (and I'm not just talking about fighting) intensifies and rises to a peak and is usually amongst the top determining factors on who will win the cup.   

In 2011 that's what killed us, as Boston took over physical play after Rome P'd them off and woke them up and they severely abused our players to the point of disgust (Remember Kesler being constantly whacked in the back of his legs by Chara in front of the net & Sedin being punched square in the face and standing there like a statue doing nothing about it or how about Boychuk taking Raymond out in the boards - for good - and I can go on with many, many, more examples).

 

So, its safe to say we are lacking dearly with that type of physical pushback on this current Canucks roster.  As for last year, we were out muscled and severely outplayed in many games and especially in the LV series and if it wasn't for "divine intervention" / stellar-goaltending, we would have been slaughtered, as we were badly out muscled, outplayed and outshot in most of that series as you know.

 

So as for those players you listed above, excluding Demko who is a goalie,  I'd say the only forward with that ability to play with grit and physical toughness is Miler and I'll be polite and include Horvat (just for you) as every now & then he shakes off the "Swedish Finesse Syndrome" he was instilled with by the Sedins and gets involved physically.    As for the other 4; Hogs, Boeser and Hughes, they are all young Finesse players, or too small/slight or don't get involved with heavy duty physical play, and Pod's is an unproven/untested NHL player and should not even be mentioned at this time.  So on a 21 man roster that is pretty sad and skimpy and why this team needs to bulk, size  & toughen up a bit because small regular season - fun to watch Finesse players will never be enough to win the cup and "I'll bet the house" on that and I think you know that too!

 

D Sedin getting love glove slapped wasn't as a big a deal as some make it out to be.   We lost the final because we simply couldn't score, replace them with anyone and put "blank" name there, the idea was to go on the PP.   Which i think the entire series was about zero because they also scored on us twice short handed.   And we had 2-1 PP for to them...AV was smart to keep the team disciplined given it was our best chance at the cup, best regular season PP and all.    We lost 2011 because of Thomas, not because we weren't "tough enough".     

 

I do agree the Horton hit woke them up, and that they were much tougher as a whole, including one of the best fighters in the league at the time in Scott Thornton (who five years before would have been middle of the row).   
 

The league has been trending away from old school hockey since the lockout.  Enforcers (who i will always see a role for  -  not goons but enforcers) are virtually gone now.   Old time hockey is dead.   
 

Sucks but it is what it is.   Our team isn't that much different then most teams.   We have some balance.   It certainly isn't Green.   It's the players.   And trying to pin this on swedes is wrong target.   So cut that out.  Like i said, Horvat had ONE entire fight in juniors that i can find anyways.   And it's not TG either, gauranteed he knows what tough is and enforcers value given the era he played in makes 2011 look like a puff league.   Go back to 94 and see what it was like back then.    At least our team was massive in comparison.  And could take the punishment. 

 

Would i like it to be like it was for the Canucks from inception to around 2008?  Yes.   I would.   We weren't ever considered pushovers in the alley until then.    Are we actually pushovers now? Aside from lack of enough high end players mostly not.    It did frustrate me that the first rebuild since the Keenan era, which just happened to have some of our toughest teams ever, that we didn't at least go out and find some truculent sobs.   Try and find them though.   After a decade post enforcer, they simply don't exist.   Guddy was the best JB could do... all his two fights per year and all....wow.   Fighting used to be a path for fringe players.   Not anymore.   "Power forward" is virtually a joke these days.  Where are the Tochett's, the Wendel Clarke's, the Kevin  Stevens, the Cam Neely's, the Shanny's etc?   Tom Wilson - laugh out loud.  Nope.   Bully yes - love to see him fight any of those guys, even now.    Simmonds laugh out loud.   Evander Kane the same.   They aren't very good fighters, just the best we have for now.   Ok i guess.   But not even close to what the league used to be like. Tom Sestito was a joke.    But at least he tried.    Sure i want more bigger bodies that can play.    And yes i also want to see that part of the game come back.  It won't.   It's not going too.   

 

Im not a fan of a left side D that includes OJ, Rathbone and QHs.   But am willing to see how it goes before passing judgement.    My head is saying "my god that's a small D".      Also saying wow go back and look at the D we had back in the early 90's.   Ohlund and Jovo were both on the small side when we got them lol.    

[spook007]

3 hours ago, EddieVedder said:

Mac, Gadj, Lind, Graovac are the types we need to become regulars.  Even Hawryluk for the 4th line.

Toss these Veseys and Boyds out.

 

 

Place holders... doubt we see them next season.

Add Lockwood and Highmore to the 4 aforementioned, and there is plenty of high octane players... Hopefully bothe Lockwood and Lind can become prolific goal scorers, cause then we could be in business, but that remains to be seen...

[oldnews]

On 6/12/2021 at 11:35 PM, UKNuck96 said:

Then putting it bluntly they are chatting $&!#, a quick search tells you that Canucks are pretty middle of the pack in terms of weight.

 

 

as to being to small 

 

tampa bay roster average height is 185.47 cm, the small Canucks 186.9

 

i wonder what resident stato @oldnews has to say on the matter 

not particularly interested in getting dragged into this thread - so I'm going to keep it brief.

forget stats

it's not about the 'weight' of your team - it's about how hard they are to play against - whether they have enough 'heaviness' to balance out the skilled elements of the roster.

 

imo the team for the most part has that balance - but needs an addition or two.

Miller brings balance to the top line

Horvat and Pearson are a 'heavy' enough 2nd line - they bring matchup and secondary scoring - and Hoglander isn't out of place there.

The bottom six was fine - it has needed to be 'foundational' particularly in the earlier transition stages - there are some solid two-way/defensive young wingers in the mix.  It needs to deal with the possible losses of Sutter (UFA) and Beagle (LTIR) - but some wise, good moves in the bottom six are attainable.

 

The left side of the blueline - is a skilled side - that is not particularly 'heavy'.

Priority one - is a two way RHD with some 'presence' - that can complement and balance Hughes on the top pairing. 

Myers and Schmidt are perfectly adequate to round out the right side - (or Schmidt on the left is Rathbone/Juolevi are not healthy or do not pan out).

 

So - there's not that much 'heaviness' work to be done imo - the principal need is a guy that can play with Hughes.  Hamonic is an adequate placeholder there - that the team needs to upgrade upon in due course - but if they focused on adding a young RHD (ie Foote - that could grow into that role) - or a guy closer to his early prime (Cernak, Mayfield, Ristolainen, etc) - then that could work as well.  Not generally the easiest of assets to acquire - a RHD - but under the flux of the expansion draft, there may be possibilities.

[GB5]

I think a lot of weight has been put recently on reguilar season power play sucess and having puck moving d-men who can quarter back the power play. This is all and good but to win in the playoffs you need defenders that can keep the other team from scoring and keep the cores low. 

 

Case in point Vegas, they have behemoth defenders and their powerplay was fairly abysmal by NHL standards at 22nd overall but they could win in the trenches throughout the year. In fact the only final 4 team with a top ten pp is Tampa, the other three teams are below average in this department.

 

As for the Canucks I think they are OK with a smallish guy like Hughes on the backend but he needs to be partnered with a defensive partner and the team needs to play a solid backchecking style.