IBatch Posted August 22, 2021 Share Posted August 22, 2021 2 hours ago, MrCanuck94 said: Or you know, using a balance of both analytics and the eye test to find the most effective conclusion instead of fully discrediting one method would be more credible. As mentioned above by some, analytics is at an early stage in hockey and is progressing. It isn't perfect, but there are many helpful stats that can give vital information to certain aspects of a players game. Yes it's the small part of the toolbox. Not the hammer, wrench, or even screwdriver. Think that little thing in your swiss army knife that you don't really ever use but is still kind of neat. 15 years and counting. Reason why stats that really matter slower creep in, SP was the last one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanucks25 Posted August 23, 2021 Share Posted August 23, 2021 Well this thread is going about as expected lmao 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashian Kassian Posted August 23, 2021 Share Posted August 23, 2021 On 8/22/2021 at 7:57 AM, IBatch said: The last time i bothered with WAR, was way back when they declared Alex Steen as the best player in the NHL. Alex ... freaking ... Steen lol. Ahead of Crosby? Bergeron? So yes, to me it's broken and has been for a long time. I'm surprised it's still even around. I think EvolvingWild had Valeri Nichuskin as a Hart candidate in one of the last few years. It's crazy some of the conclusions drawn. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post theo5789 Posted August 23, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted August 23, 2021 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted August 23, 2021 Share Posted August 23, 2021 1 hour ago, Smashian Kassian said: I think EvolvingWild had Valeri Nichuskin as a Hart candidate in one of the last few years. It's crazy some of the conclusions drawn. Yes. CHI and LA might end up being the golden years of these stats. Possession this possession that. PIT two cups made a total mockery of that and the league has moved on. We did. QHs and EP for starters. Could of had Glass/Dobson/Bouchard. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josepho Posted August 23, 2021 Share Posted August 23, 2021 (edited) 21 hours ago, IBatch said: Well...it's being going on since 2011 right? End of day this isn't baseball. Sure, but in terms of manpower and financial investment it doesn't compare to baseball. Regardless, there've still been some significant developments. People now realize that a defenceman generating very good shot differentials in tough deployment is a good thing, and we previously didn't really have the ability to quantify the effectiveness of non-flashy defencemen like Tanev. There'll continue to be developments, even if I doubt the sport ever becomes like baseball in any of our lifetimes. Edited August 23, 2021 by Josepho 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted August 23, 2021 Share Posted August 23, 2021 3 minutes ago, Josepho said: Sure, but in terms of manpower and financial investment it doesn't compare to baseball. Regardless, there've still been some significant developments. People now realize that a defenceman generating very good shot differentials in tough deployment is a good thing, and we previously didn't really have the ability to quantify the effectiveness of non-flashy defencemen like Tanev. There'll continue to be developments, even if I doubt the sport ever becomes like baseball in any of our lifetimes. I doubt Hockey even with smart pucks will ever develop much further as far as a stat that matters much. Experts/hockey people etc are smart and know how to identify guys like Rod Langway, and Bob Gainey ... and to me the Selke and Richard trophies will be the last ones i see at least. We don't need that many fancy stats but as a coach and organization i suppose they can help if they also use the eye test. If a player lets someone in their zone on purpose just to cream him all the time, then passes the puck properly most times where is the stat for that other then his hits? All hits aren't created equal either are they. Ohlund hits vs Motte or Biega lol. Zone exits and entires are a good new stat. Possession stats are very subjective and often misleading. Just a very small part of the toolbox. As i said earlier CHI and LA were the best possession teams 55-59% overall and that was the peak of the new wave of stats. PIT made a mockery of it with their counter-attack. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attila Umbrus Posted August 23, 2021 Share Posted August 23, 2021 (edited) On 8/22/2021 at 8:09 AM, Jimmy McGill said: funny thing is, you get stats people saying that face offs don't matter. ...don't get me started...I don't know how people can think winning face offs isn't a big deal...I mean if you win the draw you only get possession of the puck...no big deal I guess. Last time I checked you need the puck on your stick to make a difference. If you don't have the puck you're trying to go get the puck...seems to me getting the puck first is kinda a big deal...but whatever... Edited August 23, 2021 by Attila Umbrus 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attila Umbrus Posted August 23, 2021 Share Posted August 23, 2021 4 hours ago, kanucks25 said: Well this thread is going about as expected lmao ....You know you love it...we all do. Why do we all keep coming back lol?? I question my sanity some times Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanucks25 Posted August 23, 2021 Share Posted August 23, 2021 38 minutes ago, Attila Umbrus said: ....You know you love it...we all do. Why do we all keep coming back lol?? I question my sanity some times With great power comes great responsibility. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted August 23, 2021 Share Posted August 23, 2021 5 hours ago, kanucks25 said: Well this thread is going about as expected lmao its like you could make a chart predicting it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanucks25 Posted August 23, 2021 Share Posted August 23, 2021 1 hour ago, Jimmy McGill said: its like you could make a chart predicting it 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted August 23, 2021 Share Posted August 23, 2021 1 minute ago, kanucks25 said: effort appreciated Although I'm a bit disappointed there aren't any pink and blue areas in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawdzukes Posted August 23, 2021 Share Posted August 23, 2021 (edited) On 8/22/2021 at 8:57 AM, IBatch said: The last time i bothered with WAR, was way back when they declared Alex Steen as the best player in the NHL. Alex ... freaking ... Steen lol. Ahead of Crosby? Bergeron? So yes, to me it's broken and has been for a long time. I'm surprised it's still even around. Yep, take a look at an all analytics teams compared to an eye test team. I'll take Crosby over Steen any day of the week. Edited August 23, 2021 by Gawdzukes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawdzukes Posted August 23, 2021 Share Posted August 23, 2021 (edited) On 8/22/2021 at 2:07 PM, brownky said: Hockey is an analytics-resistant sport. There are too many variables to account for on a given play for the math to add up to a meaningful conclusion. "on averages" when you input the wrong data many, many times, the analytics data will also be flawwed. Hence why different models yield different results with the same data. It's pretty much all my claim to be measuring.ade up so people can sell how smart they are to other people. I laugh at anyone who uses WAR or Corsi at this point. There *are* analytics that show some interesting values... but neither of those two are that. So to answer your question, yes, it is, at least in hockey. Other sports perhaps not, but in hockey, yes, it's very broken. Here here, you nailed it. These things don't even come close to what they claim to be measuring. Edited August 23, 2021 by Gawdzukes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Heffy Posted August 23, 2021 Share Posted August 23, 2021 35 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said: Yep, take a look at an all analytics teams compared to an eye test team. I'll take Crosby over Steen any day of the week. Hell, look at what Dubas and Chyka did with their analytics heavy approach. This is not the right way to effectively evaluate hockey players. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
48MPHSlapShot Posted August 24, 2021 Share Posted August 24, 2021 With so much discussion about analytics, it brings to mind and important factor that none of these discussions ever seem to touch on, including discussions within the advanced stats community. It's a shame, because this point is probably the single most important important factor in deciding whether or not analytics hold any water regarding a hockey player's overall worth, and the worth if analytics to the game in general. The thing that everyone seems to either ignore are turn a blind eye to is the fact that analytics has the word anal in it, and that's hilarious. That's my contribution to the thread. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted August 24, 2021 Share Posted August 24, 2021 it had to have worked in the first place/at some point in order to become 'broken'. it's right up there with hero charts - negative analytical value imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted August 24, 2021 Share Posted August 24, 2021 On 8/23/2021 at 10:10 AM, theo5789 said: /end of 'metric'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashian Kassian Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 On 8/23/2021 at 11:12 AM, IBatch said: Yes. CHI and LA might end up being the golden years of these stats. Possession this possession that. PIT two cups made a total mockery of that and the league has moved on. We did. QHs and EP for starters. Could of had Glass/Dobson/Bouchard. Its almost like being on good teams is beneficial for a role players advanced stats. And no.. I'm not a prophet. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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