[Rumour] Bo Horvat Trade/Contract Talks

[aGENT]

1 hour ago, bishopshodan said:

That's one opinion. 

Everyone and their dog, regardless of the Miller divide, has known we need to bolster the defense.

But this brass are crapping the bed. You dont go half way and thats where they sit.

 

Trading Bo or miller is a huge mistake. Either one gone leaves us depleted in the dot. We dont win faceoffs, we dont have the puck. Possession is very important. 

Signing Miller forced them to go "half way".

 

As some of us tried to illustrate, without moving Miller, you don't have the cap space, or assets, to address the other roster issues. And this roster was in no way, shape, or form, in position to make a "win now" signing of a retirement deal.

 

This is why extending him made little sense. This team had/has too many issues to correct that require cap space, assets and time before they're a contender. By the time we get those sorted, Miller will be approaching age related decline and his cap space and lack of assets from not moving him, will be a hindrance to correcting them.

Edited November 11, 2022 by aGENT

[R3aL]

4 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Signing Miller forced them to go "half way".

 

As some of us tried to illustrate, without moving Miller, you don't have the cap space, or assets, to address the other roster issues. And this roster was in no way, shape, or form, in position to make a "win now" signing of a retirement deal.

 

This is why extending him made little sense. This team had/has too many issues to correct that require cap space, assets and time before they're a contender. By the time we get those sorted, Miller will be approaching age related decline and his cap space and lack of assets from moving him, will be a hindrance to correcting them.

Hard to imagine we couldn’t have traded him. His cap hit was great this season.

 

but I guess the risk is if he started slow like he did it got hurt might not have been able to move him and risk losing him for nothing.

 

im gonna keep doubling down on my opinion we are probably going to have to trade both miller and Horvat this season 

[Gurn]

56 minutes ago, R3aL said:

Ya this season has been his best for spreading the goals out.

 

But historically most of his goals come on the PP.

 

And not to take away from the shine but the short handed goals, 1 was with Petey and Petey made a great play to set it up with him. and the other end of game empty net.

 

Also regular season pts most of them have been against worse teams I believe (not 100% sure). I know the last two came against Ottawa and I thought that was his best 5 on 5 game maybe I have ever seen.

 

I was just saying the could have a funny stat line like this projected numbers right now are 70 goals and 23 assists.

 

 

2019 is the only time Bo's power play goals have been as high as 50% of his total..

https://www.cbssports.com/nhl/players/2076022/bo-horvat/career-stats/

 

His career average is just below 33% pp goals.

 

 

[lmm]

1 hour ago, HorvatToBaertschi said:

I've seen Hughes live only a handful of times, but he was noticeably less noticeable these past 2 games than I can recall. 

is that really a surprise?

Hughes was a big - 2 seasons ago

then decided that he wanted a better +/-

here's a newsflash

"Playing Defense is Hard"

especially when you are a smaller guy

Maybe the reality of playing good D is tougher than the idea of playing good D

 

I got roasted for saying that I thought OEL would hit a wall because he takes a lot of punishment

that is starting to look true also

OEL and Hughes are both targets on this team, its the best way to slow them both down

and I think guys just like hitting OEL

[lmm]

4 minutes ago, R3aL said:

Hard to imagine we couldn’t have traded him. His cap hit was great this season.

 

but I guess the risk is if he started slow like he did it got hurt might not have been able to move him and risk losing him for nothing.

 

im gonna keep doubling down on my opinion we are probably going to have to trade both miller and Horvat this season 

I''ll go with "Should trade both"

but I doubt Alvinie has the stones 

[Provost]

1 hour ago, bishopshodan said:

That's one opinion. 

Everyone and their dog, regardless of the Miller divide, has known we need to bolster the defense.

But this brass are crapping the bed. You dont go half way and thats where they sit.

 

Trading Bo or miller is a huge mistake. Either one gone leaves us depleted in the dot. We dont win faceoffs, we dont have the puck. Possession is very important. 

All of the studies actually show that face off proficiency has surprisingly no correlation between winning and losing.

 

A large part of that is that even an amazing faceoff guy is only winning in the high 50’s% where a bad faceoff guy is still winning in the low 40’s%.  Almost  all centres hover remarkably close to a toss up 50%.

 

Add to that, most goals aren’t scored off direct possession from faceoffs.

 

[R3aL]

17 minutes ago, Provost said:

All of the studies actually show that face off proficiency has surprisingly no correlation between winning and losing.

 

A large part of that is that even an amazing faceoff guy is only winning in the high 50’s% where a bad faceoff guy is still winning in the low 40’s%.  Almost  all centres hover remarkably close to a toss up 50%.

 

Add to that, most goals aren’t scored off direct possession from faceoffs.

 

They for some reason are against us this season lol

[R3aL]

42 minutes ago, gurn said:

2019 is the only time Bo's power play goals have been as high as 50% of his total..

https://www.cbssports.com/nhl/players/2076022/bo-horvat/career-stats/

 

His career average is just below 33% pp goals.

 

 

What are fpts and the 3yr line there? 
 

have trouble with that stat sheet you sent 

 

Large clip of his goals are scored on the Pp no? I don’t have the numbers clearly layed out to reference them but I’m pretty sure the past few years he’s not been our best evens producer has he? 
 

it’s not an attack on Bo either I think he’s a great player who does a lot of things exceptionally and has certain things he’s not as elite at. 
 

I do think he could want out though at this point.

 

whether it be in how he was evaluated financially in the summer in comparison to JT and other Centres league wide and the fact he wants to win and play playoff hockey and we could be doing a retool during his prime. 

[Gurn]

Yes, he gets a lot of his goals on the power play, however he does not get MOST of his goals that way.

In fact his pp goals are at the 33% rate over his career.

 

I've seen a few posters talking about Bo and being 'just a pp guy who is great at face offs'

but a closer look reveals Bo is far from  just a one, or even two, trick pony.

[Crabcakes]

1 hour ago, aGENT said:

Signing Miller forced them to go "half way".

 

As some of us tried to illustrate, without moving Miller, you don't have the cap space, or assets, to address the other roster issues. And this roster was in no way, shape, or form, in position to make a "win now" signing of a retirement deal.

 

This is why extending him made little sense. This team had/has too many issues to correct that require cap space, assets and time before they're a contender. By the time we get those sorted, Miller will be approaching age related decline and his cap space and lack of assets from not moving him, will be a hindrance to correcting them.

This is right.  The cap space is such a big deal.  They would be better off to have gotten NO RETURN AT ALL on Miller let alone the haul that Allvin was looking for.

 

Just go through the list of players who they have to re-sign next offseason and there's not a whole lot coming off the cap either.  Holtby and Virtanen, that's -$2.4.  Miller's hit is going up by 2.75.  But they also need to re-sign Horvat UFA, Kuzmenko UFA, Hoglander RFA, Bear RFA, Schenn UFA, Burroughs UFA, and Dermott RFA

 

They might be forced into a mini re-build anyways.

 

That's the corner that Benning painted the club into

[Crabcakes]

13 minutes ago, gurn said:

Yes, he gets a lot of his goals on the power play, however he does not get MOST of his goals that way.

In fact his pp goals are at the 33% rate over his career.

 

I've seen a few posters talking about Bo and being 'just a pp guy who is great at face offs'

but a closer look reveals Bo is far from  just a one, or even two, trick pony.

Horvat is a more important asset than Miller.   

[Coconuts]

3 hours ago, R3aL said:

Ya he has played better lately though outside of that horrendous Dach giveaway they have to just put him back on the wing and really set him up to succeed so we can move him.

 

Maybe aa GM will see him and think their teams culture and system will cover his deficiencies and he will be a beast for them on the PP and off the wing with the ability to cover C in a pinch / injury.

 

Myers I could see last to the TDL potentially, but I think they will try to move him in the summer.

 

Pearson I don't think makes it to our next training camp. From when he returns form injury to then I think they will be actively trying to move him.

 

OEL I think we are mostly stuck with him for now and am really hoping things improve for him and this isn't his new normal.

 

Ya I think they are tied together. If the JR Aquaman relationship strains I think PA will be gone regardless.

 

 

 

Question:

 

What do you think of targeting Zach Whitecloud from VGK?

 

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=165828

 

Great age, great size, has shown well in his career up to this point. Haas been a little sheltered but has shown well when he's been elevated. Good defensively with some puck moving ability. I like his heart and character too. 

 

Good cost controlled contract 2.75M

 

But he's a little buried in their system and wont be jumping Pietrangelo or Theodore unless there is an injury and they could replace him with guys up and coming and always have salary issues on the bottom pair.

 

I like the idea of him playing with OEL or Hughes and as RHD PKER.

 

If we could pick a guy like him up and add a top RHD prospect thats close to NHL ready would be huge for our group.

 

Thing is, the Dach giveaway isn't some sort of one off. He consistently gave up on pucks and plays, made boneheaded defensive plays, and just generally played poorly outside of the offensive zone last season but it was often glossed over because of his career year kind of production and because we were winning games.

 

He's a double edged sword, it's not enough to acknowledge that he can absolutely be an effective offensive player, you've got to recognize where and how he hurts you. Because he does, and he likely will as he ages and his production falls off. Which I think it it will, because it does for most forwards. 

 

He could absolutely be useful to another team as a winger though, particularly a team that could better insulate him. I didn't want him retain and I think he should be traded, but I've never viewed him as worthless. He does have value, I just don't believe he fits because of his age and what I believe/believed our timeline looked like. 

 

Whitecloud is interesting but I question whether they'd give him up. The big question mark surrounding Vegas was their goaltending without Lehner, but because of their strong D and team game they've done a really good job insulating their goalies. Having Whitecloud locked in at a really good cap hit over the course of his prime is one of the moves that should allow Vegas to remain competitive. I don't think he's undervalued because he's a third pairing guy, he brings value. 

[bishopshodan]

2 hours ago, aGENT said:

Signing Miller forced them to go "half way".

 

As some of us tried to illustrate, without moving Miller, you don't have the cap space, or assets, to address the other roster issues. And this roster was in no way, shape, or form, in position to make a "win now" signing of a retirement deal.

 

This is why extending him made little sense. This team had/has too many issues to correct that require cap space, assets and time before they're a contender. By the time we get those sorted, Miller will be approaching age related decline and his cap space and lack of assets from not moving him, will be a hindrance to correcting them.

I guess I am in the minority on believing that the core group is closer to being successful than others.

I truely think we could be contenders in the next 3-5 years and that works well with the timing and hit of his contract. 

To help with our defense needs I would think some of the excess wingers we have could be moved.

Point of my gripe earlier was that I think JR and crew seem garbage. 

 

I also thought Demko was a lifer top goalie but I am starting to waver on that. So what do I know. 

[J-23]

6 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

I guess I am in the minority on believing that the core group is closer to being successful than others.

I truely think we could be contenders in the next 3-5 years and that works well with the timing and hit of his contract. 

To help with our defense needs I would think some of the excess wingers we have could be moved.

Point of my gripe earlier was that I think JR and crew seem garbage. 

 

I also thought Demko was a lifer top goalie but I am starting to waver on that. So what do I know. 

Which excess wingers would bring back top 4 shutdown dmen. Outside of Garland.

[bishopshodan]

1 minute ago, J-23 said:

Which excess wingers would bring back top 4 shutdown dmen. Outside of Garland.

Just my guess of where we could shed.

I'm also a mortgage the future, empty the cupboard and go for it now guy. Literally sell the farm for our needs.

 

It's why I am getting impatient with JR + co.

[J-23]

3 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

Just my guess of where we could shed.

I'm also a mortgage the future, empty the cupboard and go for it now guy. Literally sell the farm for our needs.

 

It's why I am getting impatient with JR + co.

The only wingers that could get us too 4 shutdown defencemen, our needs, is Garland, Kuz, Mikheyev. Might have to add a sweetner as well. Only guy fans are okay with moving on from us Garland. 
 

Selling the future and our farms for a team that has only made the Playoffs once in the last 7 years is a horrible, horrible decision.
 

And that one year we made it, we were on pace to miss it, if it wasn’t for the expansion bubble Playoffs.

[Coconuts]

6 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

Just my guess of where we could shed.

I'm also a mortgage the future, empty the cupboard and go for it now guy. Literally sell the farm for our needs.

 

It's why I am getting impatient with JR + co.

I reckon you're in the minority with that belief. 

 

Also, as far as "the future", we don't have much in the ways of futures. You have a team like Montreal last year and this year with 10+ picks at the draft, it seems unusual when we have all of our own picks let alone someone else's. There's not much of a future to give, all our top end youth are on the roster for the most part. 

 

You're welcome to your view but it's the polar opposite of mine. I don't view this team as being close to contending and the idea of trying to go for something when we've yet to even prove we can be a consistent playoff team scares the shit out of me. You think the talent/youth gap left by Gillis would be bad? That's the sort of thing we'd be looking at by mortgaging the future. We've already experienced most of a decade of mediocrity, going for it would be shortsighted imo and result in our not only being mediocre but extending the painful process it'd take to escape it due to a lack of futures and lottery tickets at the draft. 

 

I'm not giving you shit, I believe your belief to be genuine, but I question whether you're not overly optimistic. 

[Alflives]

6 minutes ago, J-23 said:

The only wingers that could get us too 4 shutdown defencemen, our needs, is Garland, Kuz, Mikheyev. Might have to add a sweetner as well. Only guy fans are okay with moving on from us Garland. 
 

Selling the future and our farms for a team that has only made the Playoffs once in the last 7 years is a horrible, horrible decision.
 

And that one year we made it, we were on pace to miss it, if it wasn’t for the expansion bubble Playoffs.

Yup.  We can continue down this road of constantly selling the future in hopes of a better now, or we can rebuild properly.  

[bishopshodan]

7 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

I question whether you're not overly optimistic

Very well could be.

 

But if JR keep doing bupkis ....well, it's why I keep saying they're half assed brass

[higgyfan]

12 minutes ago, J-23 said:

Which excess wingers would bring back top 4 shutdown dmen. Outside of Garland.

It will take more than a season to right this ship.  It can be done, but it takes a lot of courage

and creativity. 

 

Hughes to Devils for Mukhamadullin (RD) + Mercer (C-R) + 1st

 

Miller to Boston for Lysell + Debrusk + 2nd

 

Chychrun to Nucks for Lysell + Hogs + (Devils 1st) + Rathbone

 

Boeser to Kings for Spence + 2nd

 

Trade Myers $2M retained for 1st at trade deadline.

 

Chychrun   Schenn

OEL    Bear 

Soucy(UFA)  Spence

Mukhamadullin is in his 3rd year playing in the KHL.  He could be ready by next season.  He will end up being

Chychrun's partner.