[Rumour] Bo Horvat Trade/Contract Talks

[Rick_theRyper]

3 hours ago, aGENT said:

Signing Miller forced them to go "half way".

 

As some of us tried to illustrate, without moving Miller, you don't have the cap space, or assets, to address the other roster issues. And this roster was in no way, shape, or form, in position to make a "win now" signing of a retirement deal.

 

This is why extending him made little sense. This team had/has too many issues to correct that require cap space, assets and time before they're a contender. By the time we get those sorted, Miller will be approaching age related decline and his cap space and lack of assets from not moving him, will be a hindrance to correcting them.

I really don't understand how this was hard for people to see... We would still have the forward power with Kuze and Bo and Petey if we flipped Boeser and Miller for Defense and Picks... Is that not a better team? 

 

100% in agreement here. Sad days coming I fear. I really thought we'd be better even keeping Miller and Boeser.. it's hard to watch. 

[aGENT]

1 hour ago, bishopshodan said:

I guess I am in the minority on believing that the core group is closer to being successful than others.

I truely think we could be contenders in the next 3-5 years and that works well with the timing and hit of his contract. 

To help with our defense needs I would think some of the excess wingers we have could be moved.

Point of my gripe earlier was that I think JR and crew seem garbage. 

 

I also thought Demko was a lifer top goalie but I am starting to waver on that. So what do I know. 

I agree (if they manage things well), we could be contending in 3+ years. But then we're just starting to contend as Miller is starting to decline. That doesn't coincide with the timing of his contract at all bro.

 

Miller is a contending in 0-4 years player, not a contending in 3+ years player. Kind of exactly what some of us have been saying for months.

 

FYI, Miller IS a winger. And the wingers we want to move that aren't named Miller, won't return the assets we need to fix the D and/or don't free up as much cap to weaponize.

Edited November 12, 2022 by aGENT

[Crabcakes]

1 hour ago, Coconuts said:

I reckon you're in the minority with that belief. 

 

Also, as far as "the future", we don't have much in the ways of futures. You have a team like Montreal last year and this year with 10+ picks at the draft, it seems unusual when we have all of our own picks let alone someone else's. There's not much of a future to give, all our top end youth are on the roster for the most part. 

 

You're welcome to your view but it's the polar opposite of mine. I don't view this team as being close to contending and the idea of trying to go for something when we've yet to even prove we can be a consistent playoff team scares the shit out of me. You think the talent/youth gap left by Gillis would be bad? That's the sort of thing we'd be looking at by mortgaging the future. We've already experienced most of a decade of mediocrity, going for it would be shortsighted imo and result in our not only being mediocre but extending the painful process it'd take to escape it due to a lack of futures and lottery tickets at the draft. 

 

I'm not giving you shit, I believe your belief to be genuine, but I question whether you're not overly optimistic. 

I wouldn't call 3-5 years short term though.  Look at teams like the Rangers and the Kings who turned their fortunes around fairly quickly.  

 

The Rangers famous rebuild letter was sent out in Feb 2018.  They lost in the qualifying round in the bubble 2020 and made the playoffs in 2022.  So that's 4 years.

With the Kings it's harder to tell when they began their rebuild.  Was it 2017 when they drafted Villardi or was it 2019 when they had 2 x 1st's and 2 x 2nd's and in 2022 they made the playoffs.  So 3 or 5 years depending on how you look at it.

 

Done properly, 3-5 years is possible.  But that OEL contract really screws them.  I don't know how they get around it.

[cripplereh]

51 minutes ago, Crabcakes said:

I wouldn't call 3-5 years short term though.  Look at teams like the Rangers and the Kings who turned their fortunes around fairly quickly.  

 

The Rangers famous rebuild letter was sent out in Feb 2018.  They lost in the qualifying round in the bubble 2020 and made the playoffs in 2022.  So that's 4 years.

With the Kings it's harder to tell when they began their rebuild.  Was it 2017 when they drafted Villardi or was it 2019 when they had 2 x 1st's and 2 x 2nd's and in 2022 they made the playoffs.  So 3 or 5 years depending on how you look at it.

 

Done properly, 3-5 years is possible.  But that OEL contract really screws them.  I don't know how they get around it.

You keep OEL if you have to as you need leaders going forward.The King's had and kept a few and it didn't bother them.

[rawkdrummer]

Sign Bo!

 

[aGENT]

59 minutes ago, Crabcakes said:

I wouldn't call 3-5 years short term though.  Look at teams like the Rangers and the Kings who turned their fortunes around fairly quickly.  

 

The Rangers famous rebuild letter was sent out in Feb 2018.  They lost in the qualifying round in the bubble 2020 and made the playoffs in 2022.  So that's 4 years.

With the Kings it's harder to tell when they began their rebuild.  Was it 2017 when they drafted Villardi or was it 2019 when they had 2 x 1st's and 2 x 2nd's and in 2022 they made the playoffs.  So 3 or 5 years depending on how you look at it.

 

Done properly, 3-5 years is possible.  But that OEL contract really screws them.  I don't know how they get around it.

OEL is the least of our problems. We need more top 4 capable D, not less. At worst his contract is mildly inefficient the last couple years.

 

He's not the reason this team is scuffling. He's just today's Edler.

[Rick_theRyper]

59 minutes ago, Crabcakes said:

I wouldn't call 3-5 years short term though.  Look at teams like the Rangers and the Kings who turned their fortunes around fairly quickly.  

 

The Rangers famous rebuild letter was sent out in Feb 2018.  They lost in the qualifying round in the bubble 2020 and made the playoffs in 2022.  So that's 4 years.

With the Kings it's harder to tell when they began their rebuild.  Was it 2017 when they drafted Villardi or was it 2019 when they had 2 x 1st's and 2 x 2nd's and in 2022 they made the playoffs.  So 3 or 5 years depending on how you look at it.

 

Done properly, 3-5 years is possible.  But that OEL contract really screws them.  I don't know how they get around it.

We could easily do it if Miller and Boeser were moved. If we had Dumba and the Lundquist package we'd be in the rebuild slash getting better stage instead of the buy in with what we have and suck stage...we could have been one of those quick rebuild teams this off-season and missed the boat. Bug time 

[Coconuts]

3 hours ago, bishopshodan said:

Very well could be.

 

But if JR keep doing bupkis ....well, it's why I keep saying they're half assed brass

I definitely share your skepticism there

 

It's still early but I haven't been encouraged thus far

[Coconuts]

3 hours ago, Crabcakes said:

I wouldn't call 3-5 years short term though.  Look at teams like the Rangers and the Kings who turned their fortunes around fairly quickly.  

 

The Rangers famous rebuild letter was sent out in Feb 2018.  They lost in the qualifying round in the bubble 2020 and made the playoffs in 2022.  So that's 4 years.

With the Kings it's harder to tell when they began their rebuild.  Was it 2017 when they drafted Villardi or was it 2019 when they had 2 x 1st's and 2 x 2nd's and in 2022 they made the playoffs.  So 3 or 5 years depending on how you look at it.

 

Done properly, 3-5 years is possible.  But that OEL contract really screws them.  I don't know how they get around it.

Context matters though, it's not as simple as saying the Rangers and Kings turned things around quickly.

 

For one, the LA Kings had pillars from their cup winning days still around in a Doughty and Kopitar who never stopped performing at high levels. Even Dustin Brown wasn't completely useless, and Quick having a bit of a bounce back year contributed to them making the playoffs last season. Kings team has a lot of talented youth but they've already had a core in place. They're got good mix of savvy vets, prime aged, talented, and hungry youth. 

 

They also sold during their bad years, selling D like Muzzin for a 1st+, Toffoli to us for a 2nd+, Martinez for a couple 2nd rounders, Jeff Carter for a 3rd, and other smaller deals. They've moved picks out too, but they didn't just hold on to everyone like the Canucks like to. 

 

Rangers on the other hand had a dynamic, young, top end UFA in Panarin who wanted to sign with them. They also had Fox, who turned into a Norris caliber D, who wanted to be nowhere but New York. They won the lotter twice. They have the appeal of being New York, players want to go there. We don't have their draw, particularly as a team who's struggled most of the past decade. Their turnaround isn't one can point to as something that's easily replicated. 

 

I'd love us to send out a rebuild letter, but I reckon our process could be more painful and lengthier. The thing about rebuilds is that once you commit, you gotta commit. Could be quick, could be lengthier, we don't know. 

 

They eat OEL, it's not worth paying to move him when our prospect pool is already as shallow as it is. Maybe it's easier to move down the line once there are fewer years attached, maybe we trade it for someone else's headache. I repeatedly said we were at least four years out from contending during the summer, but even I didn't think we'd look as awful as we have. 

 

I don't even want to talk about contending until we make the playoffs for a few years, and who knows how far off that is. If we're gonna be bad this is the year to start though. 

Edited November 12, 2022 by Coconuts

[R3aL]

6 hours ago, Coconuts said:

Thing is, the Dach giveaway isn't some sort of one off. He consistently gave up on pucks and plays, made boneheaded defensive plays, and just generally played poorly outside of the offensive zone last season but it was often glossed over because of his career year kind of production and because we were winning games.

 

He's a double edged sword, it's not enough to acknowledge that he can absolutely be an effective offensive player, you've got to recognize where and how he hurts you. Because he does, and he likely will as he ages and his production falls off. Which I think it it will, because it does for most forwards. 

 

He could absolutely be useful to another team as a winger though, particularly a team that could better insulate him. I didn't want him retain and I think he should be traded, but I've never viewed him as worthless. He does have value, I just don't believe he fits because of his age and what I believe/believed our timeline looked like. 

 

Whitecloud is interesting but I question whether they'd give him up. The big question mark surrounding Vegas was their goaltending without Lehner, but because of their strong D and team game they've done a really good job insulating their goalies. Having Whitecloud locked in at a really good cap hit over the course of his prime is one of the moves that should allow Vegas to remain competitive. I don't think he's undervalued because he's a third pairing guy, he brings value. 

Ya I’m with ya on Miller 100%.

 

He’s gotta go. 
 

He can’t be playing C. It’s terrifying seeing him in the centre of the ice, puck on stick, feet not moving, looking where to put the puck.

 

Gotta load him up with Bo let him rip and attract a TDL trade for him. 
 

We are on the same page here. 
 

I think only if he wanted a bigger opportunity at any point to play in a larger role and they were really pressed for cap.

 

and I guess korczak would really have to have a great year for them to be comfortable moving him next offseason. 

 

right probably unlikely.

[R3aL]

6 hours ago, bishopshodan said:

I guess I am in the minority on believing that the core group is closer to being successful than others.

I truely think we could be contenders in the next 3-5 years and that works well with the timing and hit of his contract. 

To help with our defense needs I would think some of the excess wingers we have could be moved.

Point of my gripe earlier was that I think JR and crew seem garbage. 

 

I also thought Demko was a lifer top goalie but I am starting to waver on that. So what do I know. 

He’s gonna figure it out. Most goalies with our team in. Front of them would have heinous numbers.

 

I don’t think Martin will stay undefeated or have sustained success if he plays more games here while demko struggles. 
 

martins wins are our best team game of the year so far, and two wins against two of the worst teams in the league and we had to score an insane amount of goals to win those games. 
 

demko has a lot going for him. I think he’s going to tighten up, it’s mental now. And it’s good he’s going through it he will come out better after. It was Petey last season it’s demko now. 
 

Even maelstrom and luongo had some parts of their careers that were rough. I remember lu had a stretch where he’d let in one head scratcher randomly almost every game then Just slam the door shut. Goalie is tough. And it’s been harder in our toxic environment of a team and def structure. 
 

believe in him. Kid is one of our hardest workers. On the rink in the gym on tape with Clarke working positioning and movements. Etc 

 

hes and elite tender going through a. Rough patch. 

[J-23]

6 hours ago, higgyfan said:

It will take more than a season to right this ship.  It can be done, but it takes a lot of courage

and creativity. 

 

Hughes to Devils for Mukhamadullin (RD) + Mercer (C-R) + 1st

 

Miller to Boston for Lysell + Debrusk + 2nd

 

Chychrun to Nucks for Lysell + Hogs + (Devils 1st) + Rathbone

 

Boeser to Kings for Spence + 2nd

 

Trade Myers $2M retained for 1st at trade deadline.

 

Chychrun   Schenn

OEL    Bear 

Soucy(UFA)  Spence

Mukhamadullin is in his 3rd year playing in the KHL.  He could be ready by next season.  He will end up being

Chychrun's partner.

If you are trading Hughes to the Devils, it better be for Nemec. 

The other deals aren’t going through 

[cripplereh]

Well if you trade QH might as well trade Podz and EP.

[Elias Pettersson]

1 hour ago, J-23 said:

If you are trading Hughes to the Devils, it better be for Nemec. 

The other deals aren’t going through 

If we are gonna trade Hughes to the Devils then now is the perfect time to do it, as they look like Stanley Cup contenders and Quinn could push them over the top.

 

I'd seriously be calling them now and trying to put a deal together.  Nemec, Holtz, Bahl and their 2023 1st round pick could be a great package for us.  It would also free up the cap space to keep BO.  New Jersey has the cap space for Quinn next year as well.  For the trade to work this year we could take on Bernier's LTIR and also add Andreas Johnsson to the deal.  I think the numbers would work.

 

This trade would also allow us to tank hard for Bedard...

[N4ZZY]

6 hours ago, Crabcakes said:

I don't know how they get around it.

they don't. they'll just have to bit the bullet on that OEL contract. It's the worse move by Jim Benning, and he made a ton of bone headed moves. 

 

[Elias Pettersson]

17 minutes ago, cripplereh said:

Well if you trade QH might as well trade Podz and EP.

No really.  You build around Petey, he is our best player.  Podkolzin is part of the Russian connection, so I think with a new coach and a better structure we will get the best of out Podzilla...

[cripplereh]

4 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

No really.  You build around Petey, he is our best player.  Podkolzin is part of the Russian connection, so I think with a new coach and a better structure we will get the best of out Podzilla...

I like the Kuz EP line .  Just says my for those who want QH gone might as well trade EP as well as we would get a boatload for both.

[J-23]

2 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

If we are gonna trade Hughes to the Devils then now is the perfect time to do it, as they look like Stanley Cup contenders and Quinn could push them over the top.

 

I'd seriously be calling them now and trying to put a deal together.  Nemec, Holtz, Bahl and their 2023 1st round pick could be a great package for us.  It would also free up the cap space to keep BO.  New Jersey has the cap space for Quinn next year as well.  For the trade to work this year we could take on Bernier's LTIR and also add Andreas Johnsson to the deal.  I think the numbers would work.

 

This trade would also allow us to tank hard for Bedard...

The Devils are not doing that lol

[Alflives]

4 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

No really.  You build around Petey, he is our best player.  Podkolzin is part of the Russian connection, so I think with a new coach and a better structure we will get the best of out Podzilla...

Hughes for Doogie Howser Hamilton?  

[bishopshodan]

11 hours ago, aGENT said:

FYI, Miller IS a winger. And the wingers we want to move that aren't named Miller, won't return the assets we need to fix the D and/or don't free up as much cap to weaponize.

You're a winger.

 

But actually I do like when we load up the top line with Bo and JT on the wing.

With the way the linesmen fart around and quickly toss dudes out of the dot, I love having insurance on the same line. A good example of these daft linesmen was JT being tossed last game for no good reason leaving Pearson to lose the draw that led to a goal.

That said, it only works for the top line obviously as it depletes options for the rest of the lines. 

 

Yeah, I still beleive there are more ways to skin a cat. I would retain JT but I understand your pov. 

We have for a long time had different opinions on his projected decline. You have mentioned that players that do well into their 30's are 'outliers' as you love to call them. I believe JT is a physically durable guy, he doesn't show the miles of his gritty play. I would gamble that he will be one of thoe elusive outliers.