[Rumour] Bo Horvat Trade/Contract Talks

[wai_lai416]

30 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

With Kuzmenkos potential league average per production increase being almost $6 million + and Horvats next contract going to be a raise of $2.5 to $3 million from what he is making now, we will need a minimum of $8.75 million just to cover their next contracts/raises.  The likelihood of losing Horvat is in fact great.  But if we retain Horvat we wil lose Kuzmenko, where as if we retain Kuzmenko we will lose Horvat.

 

Losing Kuzmenko right now, essentially a ppg player for the top line with quality even strength production will set us back appreciably as we can't just make up his points as Hoglander and Podkolzin have shown.  Losing Horvat a PPG centre with positive metrics across the board, comparable at even strength as he is on the PP means we lose that defensively responsible centre and those face off wins which are so crucial for both offensive and defensive zone starts.

 

Those losses either singular or as a whole will set this team significantly far back as we will not have the cap space to find replacements and fix the blue line (again) which will lead to more of the exact same as we have seen since 2013/2014 which very well could exacerbate feelings of failure on the remaining core who could very well look to move elsewhere 

 

Damned if we do damned if we don't right now.

finding 8.75 wont be too hard.. is still believe the escrow will be paid off and the cap will go up 3-4mil at least.. but i still think kuzmenko unless they can sign him prior to the TDL they'll prolly move him along with horvat. losing horvat and kuzmenko let say and say they fix the blueline.. whoopie.. but now you have offence lol.. you literally have 1 top line and a bunch of bottom 6 players rounding out the 2-4 line. so i honestly think all path leads to a rebuild 1 way or another. 

[Warhippy]

27 minutes ago, DrJockitch said:

This seems very unrealistic.

We have no prospects to see good things from.

But, management will tell you otherwise.  Like they have for the last 8 years

[Warhippy]

11 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Dude They Henrik wasnt our 1C.we had the WCE dominating while they were struggling and figuring it out. PETEY IS OUR 1C

Right now Petey is as effective at C as they were and hes our 1C. Thats a huuuuge responsibility. At least the twins had the WCE ahead of them and had role players below them for dzone draws. Petey is our 1C who has a hard time winning draws, staying on his feet and and impossible task of trying to tie up and pin much bigger forwards or D along the boards and battling for strength of positioning. He has to rely on his craftiness to outsmart guys that are just as smart as him, but are bigger and stronger. If Petey cannot out smart someone and steal the puck, tell me please how the f*** is he going to get the puck from a Crosby, Malkin, Ovi, Mantha, Kopitar, Draisaitl, McDavid, Tkachuk and so on and so forth. There are countless bigger players that are just as clever. Tell me how is he going to win a battle versus Kopitar? 

The sedins came in to the league as our checking line.  While the 1st line in the WCE saw intense duties without question.  The dead puck era 1996-2005 put incredible pressure on the 3rd line to be the defensive lines/checking lines and whil;e the wins played an average of 13 mins a night for their first few years.  They HAD to do it against intense competition as well when and where hooking, grabbing and mugging was not an afterthought it was what kept players in the league.

 

Pettersson is doing that in a league where those pressures don't exist in the same format, where just playing hockey intelligently is enough to get a smaller player through.

 

As for how he is going to battle against kopitar, the numbers speak for themselves in which Pettersson does quite well against a potential future HoF centre 

[Warhippy]

36 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

finding 8.75 wont be too hard.. is still believe the escrow will be paid off and the cap will go up 3-4mil at least.. but i still think kuzmenko unless they can sign him prior to the TDL they'll prolly move him along with horvat. losing horvat and kuzmenko let say and say they fix the blueline.. whoopie.. but now you have offence lol.. you literally have 1 top line and a bunch of bottom 6 players rounding out the 2-4 line. so i honestly think all path leads to a rebuild 1 way or another. 

Let's say the cap does go up.  Without ANY bonus overages, the Canucks will start next season with a maximum of $12.93 million.  Maximum overages shows the Canucks starting with a maximum of $10.93 million.

 

Let's play conservatively here and say that our cap space will be $11 million

 

Expiring RFAs are:  Hoglander, Lockwood, Dermott and Bear.  Hoglander should potentially get $2 million, a 1 million increase, that's now 10 million.  Dermott when he played was solid and will probably get a small bump to 2 million, meaning 9.5 million left.  Lockwood must be kept.  Let's say he gets a 2-3 year extension to $1.25 million, that's 9 million.  Ethan Bear...can't say enough good things about him right now and we absolutely can not lose him which means he's getting a bump to $3 million 7.8 million left

 

7.8 million million left, 

 

Expiring UFAs are:  Horvat, Schenn, Kuzmemko, Lockwood.  Schenn is a leader, a warrior and worth every single penny he gets.  Let's say we keep him for 2-3 years at $1.25 million as well, 7.45 million left.  Burroughs?  Damn...tough call but we need RHD so badly he's kind of essential now and has played his way in to an increase at 18 mins a night average.  So Bear gets a 1.2 million increase to $3 million a year that's 6.25 million left.  Kuzmenko right now is playing like a first line winger and will IF retained be worth league minimum for a ppg winger to $7 million.  .25 million left.  Horvat has essentially played himself in to a comparable $8 million contract with Miller.  That's a $2.5 million increase.  -2.25 million left.

 

We have not addressed the issues we have on the blue line at all.  We have not increased our depth at all or have anything on the bottom 6 that is worth being called a quality 3c that can take defensive minutes.  Larger checking wingers for the 3rd line either.  

 

So to sum up.  To maintain what we have while being conservative about potential increases in pay for our support UFAs and RFAs as the cap rises; our desperate need for RHD leaving us little bargaining power we're already over the cap just retaining what we have while making zero additions.  It gets better to end next season with two consecutive cap increases and expiring contracts but we're in trouble now and next year and that's inarguable as we can most likely not maintain the roster we have let alone upgrade it as shipping out players  in certain positions to shore up others will result in holes we need to fill via free agency that we will not be able to afford and historically have had awful luck doing.

 

There comes a time where the writing on the wall is so glaringly obvious that even the most die hard person recognizes it and a rebuild is not something to be taken lightly, but also something that cannot be ignored as possibly the most viable option right now

Edited December 1, 2022 by Warhippy

[grandmaster]

Bo is re-signing here. Our captain is not going anywhere. 

 

[wai_lai416]

1 hour ago, Warhippy said:

Let's say the cap does go up.  Without ANY bonus overages, the Canucks will start next season with a maximum of $12.93 million.  Maximum overages shows the Canucks starting with a maximum of $10.93 million.

 

Let's play conservatively here and say that our cap space will be $11 million

 

Expiring RFAs are:  Hoglander, Lockwood, Dermott and Bear.  Hoglander should potentially get $2 million, a 1 million increase, that's now 10 million.  Dermott when he played was solid and will probably get a small bump to 2 million, meaning 9.5 million left.  Lockwood must be kept.  Let's say he gets a 2-3 year extension to $1.25 million, that's 9 million.  Ethan Bear...can't say enough good things about him right now and we absolutely can not lose him which means he's getting a bump to $3 million 7.8 million left

 

7.8 million million left, 

 

Expiring UFAs are:  Horvat, Schenn, Kuzmemko, Lockwood.  Schenn is a leader, a warrior and worth every single penny he gets.  Let's say we keep him for 2-3 years at $1.25 million as well, 7.45 million left.  Burroughs?  Damn...tough call but we need RHD so badly he's kind of essential now and has played his way in to an increase at 18 mins a night average.  So Bear gets a 1.2 million increase to $3 million a year that's 6.25 million left.  Kuzmenko right now is playing like a first line winger and will IF retained be worth league minimum for a ppg winger to $7 million.  .25 million left.  Horvat has essentially played himself in to a comparable $8 million contract with Miller.  That's a $2.5 million increase.  -2.25 million left.

 

We have not addressed the issues we have on the blue line at all.  We have not increased our depth at all or have anything on the bottom 6 that is worth being called a quality 3c that can take defensive minutes.  Larger checking wingers for the 3rd line either.  

 

So to sum up.  To maintain what we have while being conservative about potential increases in pay for our support UFAs and RFAs as the cap rises; our desperate need for RHD leaving us little bargaining power we're already over the cap just retaining what we have while making zero additions.  It gets better to end next season with two consecutive cap increases and expiring contracts but we're in trouble now and next year and that's inarguable as we can most likely not maintain the roster we have let alone upgrade it as shipping out players  in certain positions to shore up others will result in holes we need to fill via free agency that we will not be able to afford and historically have had awful luck doing.

 

There comes a time where the writing on the wall is so glaringly obvious that even the most die hard person recognizes it and a rebuild is not something to be taken lightly, but also something that cannot be ignored as possibly the most viable option right now

I don’t think schenn will re-sign with the Canucks. I don’t think he likes some of the players attitude on the team. Hoglander I honestly don’t see him get more than 1.5 there’s no way in hell they are not going to do whatever they can to move one of boeser or garland and or maybe Pearson so if they want to they can it’s just depends on how willing and how much effort they put into it 

[NHL97OneTimer]

Neither are leaving.  Others will be.  Moving Brock alone will create some space.  I also see Miller going before both of these guys......and that contract won't be as easy.

[NHL97OneTimer]

5 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

I don’t think schenn will re-sign with the Canucks. I don’t think he likes some of the players attitude on the team. Hoglander I honestly don’t see him get more than 1.5 there’s no way in hell they are not going to do whatever they can to move one of boeser or garland and or maybe Pearson so if they want to they can it’s just depends on how willing and how much effort they put into it 

I agree re: Hoglander.  He hasn't earned anything yet.  I can see him being traded tbh.  

 

I actually think Schenn will stick around but expect his voice to be in line with management's approach.  At his stage of his career, he's probably thinking more about his future after playing and he seems to like Vancouver.  Hopefully they sign him for longer.  Character guy and leading this year......but really a third-line D on a good playoff team.

[4petesake]

2 hours ago, Warhippy said:

Play well down the stretch

Still be out of a playoff spot but close

Hear how all avenues are being explored

17 rumours about moving him

11 about signing him

TDL will pass

Signing rumours will go in to overdrive

Miss the playoffs, draft 12th 

Horvat walks for nothing

Hear how "we tried to get something done at the TDL but nobody was paying" and "We extended what we thought was a fair offer, they wanted to test the market"

Go in to off season hearing promises about change, big things happening; seeing good things from prospects that will never be allowed to play

Rinse and repeat to start 2023/2024

 

Just sayin

Bo will be signed or traded by the trade deadline, book it.
If Bo walks in the off-season so do JR & PA … with their heads on platters. That will be inexcusable.

[wai_lai416]

21 minutes ago, NHL97OneTimer said:

I agree re: Hoglander.  He hasn't earned anything yet.  I can see him being traded tbh.  

 

I actually think Schenn will stick around but expect his voice to be in line with management's approach.  At his stage of his career, he's probably thinking more about his future after playing and he seems to like Vancouver.  Hopefully they sign him for longer.  Character guy and leading this year......but really a third-line D on a good playoff team.

hopefully with Schenn.. but management really need to find a partner for hughes.. Schenn is getting up there in age and really isn't an option imo. 

 

i really dunno what to think of this team.. if we move Horvat.. trade Boeser.. and more than likely lose Kuzmenko too.. this team top 6 suddenly look awfully weak.. podz and hogz who people pencilled in as sure fire top 6.. 1 is on pace for 8 goals.. 1 is in the AHL. if JR doesn't want to pay horvat his 7-8mil he sure ain't hell going to want to pay kuzmenko 6+

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

hopefully with Schenn.. but management really need to find a partner for hughes.. Schenn is getting up there in age and really isn't an option imo. 

 

i really dunno what to think of this team.. if we move Horvat.. trade Boeser.. and more than likely lose Kuzmenko too.. this team top 6 suddenly look awfully weak.. podz and hogz who people pencilled in as sure fire top 6.. 1 is on pace for 8 goals.. 1 is in the AHL. if JR doesn't want to pay horvat his 7-8mil he sure ain't hell going to want to pay kuzmenko 6+

Maybe the best course is to KABOOM the team and build around Petey?  

[garthsbutcher]

28 minutes ago, NHL97OneTimer said:

I agree re: Hoglander.  He hasn't earned anything yet.  I can see him being traded tbh.  

 

I actually think Schenn will stick around but expect his voice to be in line with management's approach.  At his stage of his career, he's probably thinking more about his future after playing and he seems to like Vancouver.  Hopefully they sign him for longer.  Character guy and leading this year......but really a third-line D on a good playoff team.

Schenn should be the captain of this team

[wai_lai416]

3 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Maybe the best course is to KABOOM the team and build around Petey?  

which ive raised concerns before and people just blow it off.. can you get EP signed next year? if it gets to off season.. more and more chances he'll take his QO and leave.. if he accepted his QO.. his value also plummets as a trade chip because there's no team control and no guarantee he signs with any team he's traded to.

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

which ive raised concerns before and people just blow it off.. can you get EP signed next year? if it gets to off season.. more and more chances he'll take his QO and leave.. if he accepted his QO.. his value also plummets as a trade chip because there's no team control and no guarantee he signs with any team he's traded to.

Don't let on the club is going to KABOOM until after Petey extends.  Then we have our three key pieces locked up: Petey, Demko, Hughes.  Miller is locked up too.  And OEL, with his contract, is as good as locked up.  We should be building for 3-5 years away.  But our owner will not rebuilding moves so we will continue to swim in the middle.  

[Elias Pettersson]

JR isn't gonna blow up the team.  If the team gets blown up it's because JR gets blown up with it.  Which may happen.

 

However, if he sticks around then what he needs to do quite frankly is keep BO, get him signed, and then trade Garland, Boeser, Pearson and Myers to open up $21 million in cap space to re-sign BO and Kuzy.  Sign Artem Zub as a UFA in free agency and then at least we have some money left over to get a 3C and maybe another Dman.  Who knows, maybe we get lucky and somebody actually gives us something of value for Boeser, Garland and Myers.

[aGENT]

4 hours ago, DrJockitch said:

As much as like Mik, kind of think spending more on the wing was a bad idea when you haven’t moved any money off the wing especially since you spent another bundle on the wing with JTM. 
‘Now if we lose our second most important forward because of the short sighted signing of Mik and Miller then it is a real problem and one that JR/PA should answer for harshly.

We need more guy like Mik, not less IMO. The problem was doubling down on Miller or not moving Garland or Boeser.

[DrJockitch]

53 minutes ago, aGENT said:

We need more guy like Mik, not less IMO. The problem was doubling down on Miller or not moving Garland or Boeser.

I agree but when he came in someone needed to go out or risk the loss of Bo for yet another winger. 

[aGENT]

Just now, DrJockitch said:

I agree but when he came in someone needed to go out or risk the loss of Bo for yet another winger. 

Yup, even if we had to "Bjorkstrand" Garland for a 3rd and 4th (if we were doubling down on Miller), we would have been better off IMO.

[Alflives]

56 minutes ago, aGENT said:

We need more guy like Mik, not less IMO. The problem was doubling down on Miller or not moving Garland or Boeser.

100% agree, but convince our owner it’s okay to move core pieces for futures, so we clear their cap.  

[combover]

Would still like to see miller traded before his contract kicks in. 
might get less return than last year but not having that contract on the books has lots of value.