[Rumour] Bo Horvat Trade/Contract Talks

[HorvatToBaertschi]

7 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Some people think BO is like Ryan Kesler.  Imagine comparing BO to the greatest defensive player in Vancouver Canucks history who was also a 40 goal scorer.  Incredible really.  BO is a 60 point player who takes faceoffs and is competent defensively.  Never got higher than 34th in Selke voting.  BO is a 2C.  He should be paid like a 2C...

Kesler's never had another season over 26 goals. That was his prime year scoring 41. Bo could still do it. Kesler also had the luxury of playing behind the 2 best players in the league at that time, so his minutes were favorable. We threw Horvat to the wolves ever since he stepped foot in the league. Went from 4th line playing with bums to being our 1C alongside wingers like Baertschi. 

 

Kesler's had 3 runs longer or as long in the playoffs as Bo and has never scored as much as Bo did. So is Bo a better playoff performer than Kesler? Bo's not just a player who takes faceoffs. He's the most valuable faceoff player in the league. 

Edited September 7, 2022 by HorvatToBaertschi

[BPA]

8 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Some people think BO is like Ryan Kesler.  Imagine comparing BO to the greatest defensive player in Vancouver Canucks history who was also a 40 goal scorer.  Incredible really.  BO is a 60 point player who takes faceoffs and is competent defensively.  Never got higher than 34th in Selke voting.  BO is a 2C.  He should be paid like a 2C...

And what does a 2C get paid??

[JM_]

8 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Some people think BO is like Ryan Kesler.  Imagine comparing BO to the greatest defensive player in Vancouver Canucks history who was also a 40 goal scorer.  Incredible really.  BO is a 60 point player who takes faceoffs and is competent defensively.  Never got higher than 34th in Selke voting.  BO is a 2C.  He should be paid like a 2C...

Kesler blew up his body to play that way. But you do have a good point.

 

JR/PA have to land somewhere between your point and what Bo would get on the open market tho. I'm hoping for high 6's, won't be shocked to see mid-7's. 

[tas]

1 hour ago, shiznak said:

 

If he took a hometown discount, he would have accepted what was offered to him and it wouldn’t have dragged on until the end of August. 

that's absurd. so if he's worth $10 mil and they offer him $4, and they settle at $7, he hasn't taken a hometown  discount?

 

you don't get to define terms that already have definitions. he took less than he could to stay in his preferred city. that is a hometown discount. 

[Elias Pettersson]

1 hour ago, HorvatToBaertschi said:

Kesler's never had another season over 26 goals. That was his prime year scoring 41. Bo could still do it. Kesler also had the luxury of playing behind the 2 best players in the league at that time, so his minutes were favorable. We threw Horvat to the wolves ever since he stepped foot in the league. Went from 4th line playing with bums to being our 1C alongside wingers like Baertschi. 

 

Kesler's had 3 runs longer or as long in the playoffs as Bo and has never scored as much as Bo did. So is Bo a better playoff performer than Kesler? Bo's not just a player who takes faceoffs. He's the most valuable faceoff player in the league. 

You just made my point, still trying to compare BO to Kesler and making excuses for why BO still isn't at his level yet.  Newsflash, BO will NEVER be like Ryan Kesler.  

 

"He's the most valuable faceoff player in the league".  What does that even mean?  That he wins more draws than most other people?  Okay, so what?  Just because you win a draw doesn't mean you actually helped your team.  That statistic is very misleading.  You can win the draw and the other team can still get the puck.  This is pretty basic stuff.  

 

"Kesler had the luxury of playing behind the 2 best players in the league".  Yeah, okay so what.  Was that the reason he won the Selke?  Were the Sedins always the best players in the league while Kesler was a Canuck?  I'm pretty sure Kesler became our greatest defensive player ever because of what Kesler did on the ice not because he was playing on the same team as the Sedins.

 

If BO wants his payday and doesn't want to actually help this team like Miller did by taking a hometown discount than he really should be traded.  Miller has been doing interviews all summer long about his desire to stay in Vancouver.  Haven't even heard a peep from Horvat all summer.  Yet he's supposed to be our captain while many people wanted to ship Miller out of town.  Thank God JR/PA came to their senses and signed Miller long term.  

[Westcoastcanucks777]

3 hours ago, Ilya Mikheyev said:

what if he asks for 7

Rings of power

[Elias Pettersson]

1 hour ago, BPA said:

And what does a 2C get paid??

I dunno, Miller is a 1C and is getting $8 million.  So I would assume it is much less than that.  Phillip Danault is a 50 point player who is a much better defensive player than Horvat, he was 8th in Selke voting last year.  He's at $5.5 million.  So it should be something in between those numbers.  $6.5 million on an 8 year extension should be the sweet spot.

[HorvatToBaertschi]

5 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

You just made my point, still trying to compare BO to Kesler and making excuses for why BO still isn't at his level yet.  Newsflash, BO will NEVER be like Ryan Kesler.  

 

"He's the most valuable faceoff player in the league".  What does that even mean?  That he wins more draws than most other people?  Okay, so what?  Just because you win a draw doesn't mean you actually helped your team.  That statistic is very misleading.  You can win the draw and the other team can still get the puck.  This is pretty basic stuff.  

 

"Kesler had the luxury of playing behind the 2 best players in the league".  Yeah, okay so what.  Was that the reason he won the Selke?  Were the Sedins always the best players in the league while Kesler was a Canuck?  I'm pretty sure Kesler became our greatest defensive player ever because of what Kesler did on the ice not because he was playing on the same team as the Sedins.

 

If BO wants his payday and doesn't want to actually help this team like Miller did by taking a hometown discount than he really should be traded.  Miller has been doing interviews all summer long about his desire to stay in Vancouver.  Haven't even heard a peep from Horvat all summer.  Yet he's supposed to be our captain while many people wanted to ship Miller out of town.  Thank God JR/PA came to their senses and signed Miller long term.  

Being the most valuable faceoff player in the league means Bo will go on the ice, win a faceoff, and then change. Nobody in the league does that. It's not like we don't have capable faceoff men either, we had 2 of the league's best in Beagle and Miller, but Bo was always on the ice. That defensive side of him is often overlooked. 

 

Kesler's quality of competition was lower because he played behind the Sedins. Also, Malhotra during the year Kesler won the Selke was the one assigned defensive tasks on other team's top players. The Selke made sense because we were the best team in the league, offensively and defensively, and Kesler was a top player playing solid defensively. He wasn't the go-to though. If the Selke didn't take star power into account, Malhotra would've gotten the Selke that year. 

 

All I'm saying is that Kesler is a perfect comparable for Bo. They have very similar traits both offensively and defensively. Kesler was more polished than Bo, sure. But Bo makes up for it with his faceoffs. That's not something Kesler was bad at either (he was quite good actually), but Bo is most valuable faceoff player in the league. And while Kesler is always attributed a playoff performer because of one series, Bo literally outperformed it already. Bo is a more proven playoff performer in 23 games than Kesler in his entire career. That matters. 

 

 

[shiznak]

27 minutes ago, tas said:

that's absurd. so if he's worth $10 mil and they offer him $4, and they settle at $7, he hasn't taken a hometown  discount?

 

you don't get to define terms that already have definitions. he took less than he could to stay in his preferred city. that is a hometown discount. 

Those numbers are greatly exaggerated. If JR/PA did that type of negotiating, and undercut his players like that, no one would ever sign here.
 

Do you even know how negotiating works? GM’s would often offered an sensible offer to the player, most likely an slight undervalued contract. This is where the player and his agent would look at it and decide if it’s worth negotiating. 
 

My guess is that JR/PA didn’t want to go past 6yrs, but were willing to exceed the base salary over 9.5m. In Miller’s camp they wanted term, but in favour of a lower base salary. So, they agree on a common ground. Like I said, the total salary amount was always going to be in the 55m-60m range. That’s the norm for a 70-80ish points player in today’s world.

[tas]

19 minutes ago, shiznak said:

Those numbers are greatly exaggerated. If JR/PA did that type of negotiating, and undercut his players like that, no one would ever sign here.
 

Do you even know how negotiating works? GM’s would often offered an sensible offer to the player, most likely an slight undervalued contract. This is where the player and his agent would look at it and decide if it’s worth negotiating. 
 

My guess is that JR/PA didn’t want to go past 6yrs, but were willing to exceed the base salary over 9.5m. In Miller’s camp they wanted term, but in favour of a lower base salary. So, they agree on a common ground. Like I said, the total salary amount was always going to be in the 55m-60m range. That’s the norm for a 70-80ish points player in today’s world.

the numbers weren't exaggerated, they were chosen specifically to prove a point. good logic can be applied universally. you stated that for it to be considered a hometown discount, the player should take what he's offered. 

[Elias Pettersson]

8 minutes ago, HorvatToBaertschi said:

Being the most valuable faceoff player in the league means Bo will go on the ice, win a faceoff, and then change. Nobody in the league does that. It's not like we don't have capable faceoff men either, we had 2 of the league's best in Beagle and Miller, but Bo was always on the ice. That defensive side of him is often overlooked. 

 

Kesler's quality of competition was lower because he played behind the Sedins. Also, Malhotra during the year Kesler won the Selke was the one assigned defensive tasks on other team's top players. The Selke made sense because we were the best team in the league, offensively and defensively, and Kesler was a top player playing solid defensively. He wasn't the go-to though. If the Selke didn't take star power into account, Malhotra would've gotten the Selke that year. 

 

All I'm saying is that Kesler is a perfect comparable for Bo. They have very similar traits both offensively and defensively. Kesler was more polished than Bo, sure. But Bo makes up for it with his faceoffs. That's not something Kesler was bad at either (he was quite good actually), but Bo is most valuable faceoff player in the league. And while Kesler is always attributed a playoff performer because of one series, Bo literally outperformed it already. Bo is a more proven playoff performer in 23 games than Kesler in his entire career. That matters. 

 

 

Kesler was already in the top 3 in Selke voting for 2 years in a row and was runner up to the award before Malhotra even joined the Canucks, so not sure what you are even talking about in terms of Malhotra was helping Kesler to be a great defensive player.  Kesler was already one of the best defensive players in the league before Malhotra even played one game for the Canucks. 

 

As for the Sedins, Kesler was already getting Selke votes before they even became point a game players, never mind the best players in the game.  

 

You are really trying to undermine how good Kelser was and trying really hard to hype up BO as some kind of defensive guru.  Kesler won the Selke and finished in the top 3 five times.  BO finished 34th in Selke voting last year and it was the only time in his entire career that he even got a vote.  Miller actually finished ahead of him last year at 23rd overall last year and also finished 19th overall in 2020. 

 

Also, Miller's faceoff percentage over the last 3 years combined is almost identical to BO's, Miller is at 55.4% over a 3 year period and BO is at 55.7%.  Not much of a difference to me and Miller is our 1C.

[shiznak]

4 minutes ago, tas said:

the numbers weren't exaggerated, they were chosen specifically to prove a point. good logic can be applied universally. you stated that for it to be considered a hometown discount, the player should take what he's offered. 

A 6m difference isn’t logically or sensible for a 80+ players, in anyway. If you said he’s worth 10m and they offered 7m, that is a more realistic scenario. In which, if he accepted it. That would be a hometown discount.

 

Like I said, no GM would ever undercut a player by that much or else no one will ever go into business with them or the client will just walk away and end all negotiations with the team.

 

 

 

[tas]

12 minutes ago, shiznak said:

A 6m difference isn’t logically or sensible for a 80+ players, in anyway. If you said he’s worth 10m and they offered 7m, that is a more realistic scenario. In which, if he accepted it. That would be a hometown discount.

 

Like I said, no GM would ever undercut a player by that much or else no one will ever go into business with them or the client will just walk away and end all negotiations with the team.

 

 

 

it would also be a hometown discount if he accepted $8.5 or $9.

 

the amount of the discount makes no difference as to whether or not it's a hometown discount. which is my whole point. 

[BPA]

52 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

I dunno, Miller is a 1C and is getting $8 million.  So I would assume it is much less than that.  Phillip Danault is a 50 point player who is a much better defensive player than Horvat, he was 8th in Selke voting last year.  He's at $5.5 million.  So it should be something in between those numbers.  $6.5 million on an 8 year extension should be the sweet spot.

Danault avg 40-50pts.  Gets about 15g but last year got 27g.

 

Bo avg 50+ pts.  Get 20+g and last year got 31g.  With better wingers (finally), hopefully that improves.

 

$6.5M x 8yr would be an awesome deal.  I would be happy in a range of $6.5-$7M x 8yrs.

[EdgarM]

18 hours ago, SilentSam said:

You can convince yourself ,  and that’s fine.

 

but I’ll only be convinced that he is here when we have him signed.

I’m not saying he will be,  nor am I saying he won’t.

 

Until then,.   “It is what it is “ .

I agree, I always thought the "Core" consisted of your Top Center, Top D and your Goalie. I see Miller as #2 as he is signed long term and Petey obviously our long term #1. That leaves Bo. It definitely is "up in the air" until he actually signs.

[Ghostsof1915]

I'm not understanding why folks are saying trade Garland for pennies on the dollar. He got 53 points last year. Has a decent cap hit for a few years. I'm sure we can get a pick and prospect for him, if the decision is to move him.

[DeNiro]

8 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

I'm not understanding why folks are saying trade Garland for pennies on the dollar. He got 53 points last year. Has a decent cap hit for a few years. I'm sure we can get a pick and prospect for him, if the decision is to move him.

Makes no sense.

 

People still can’t seem to get over his size. Sad in todays NHL when so many smaller players are performing.

 

Theres other areas we need to look to get cap space long before trading Garland. 

[Elias Pettersson]

9 hours ago, shiznak said:

Again, he never took a “hometown discount”, no matter how much you want to believe it or what Miller himself said. He was never going to get over 60m on the open market. Especially for a 30-yrs old, who reached his peaked. His caphit was always going to be around the 8-9m mark for 7-8 years.

 

If Miller took at hometown discount, like you claimed. Why did it take so long for them to reach a deal, despite having constant conversations, since the end of their season? Wouldn’t you think a deal would have been done earlier?

Miller himself said he signed for less than market.  Also, how do you know he has reached his peak?  Can you predict the future?  30 year old players who are top 15 players in the NHL have signed for more than $8 million.  $8 million isn't market value for Miller.  If you can't understand that then there really is no point to go any further with this.

[CaptainLinden16]

54 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Kesler was already in the top 3 in Selke voting for 2 years in a row and was runner up to the award before Malhotra even joined the Canucks, so not sure what you are even talking about in terms of Malhotra was helping Kesler to be a great defensive player.  Kesler was already one of the best defensive players in the league before Malhotra even played one game for the Canucks. 

 

As for the Sedins, Kesler was already getting Selke votes before they even became point a game players, never mind the best players in the game.  

 

You are really trying to undermine how good Kelser was and trying really hard to hype up BO as some kind of defensive guru.  Kesler won the Selke and finished in the top 3 five times.  BO finished 34th in Selke voting last year and it was the only time in his entire career that he even got a vote.  Miller actually finished ahead of him last year at 23rd overall last year and also finished 19th overall in 2020. 

 

Also, Miller's faceoff percentage over the last 3 years combined is almost identical to BO's, Miller is at 55.4% over a 3 year period and BO is at 55.7%.  Not much of a difference to me and Miller is our 1C.

I am sorry Kesler was a significantly better defensive player the Bo ever will be.  Kesler was an animal.  Kesler single handedly won the predators series.  He was a favorite with Loungo for the Smythe in 2011.  His underperformance at times prior can be attributed precisely to his over emphasis on the defensive side of the game.  Kesler was extremely fast and constantly in your face.  An absolute nightmare to play against.  Horvat is a solid positional player who is great on faceoffs.  He is more like NIck Bonino+++

[Elias Pettersson]

19 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

I'm not understanding why folks are saying trade Garland for pennies on the dollar. He got 53 points last year. Has a decent cap hit for a few years. I'm sure we can get a pick and prospect for him, if the decision is to move him.

It's people pushing the "there is no cap space available in the league" narrative.  Teams would make room for Garland.  53 point players don't grow on trees.  His value cannot be neutral or even negative.  Makes no sense.  There should be at least 1-2 teams that would make a hockey trade for him.  That $5 million in cap space would be huge if we can move it for help on defence.  Something has to give.  If we want to be a contender we need to get help at RHD.  Just waiting for contracts to expire doesn't seem like a very good long term plan for success, especially given the fact we are in win now ode with Miller signed long term.