[Rumour] Bo Horvat Trade/Contract Talks

[EdgarM]

5 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

No and neither did Tampa or Colorado over the last 3 years.  We don't need 3 top centres, we need 2 top centres which we already have and a true 3C like a Manny Malhotra.

 

If we keep BO then Miller can play with Petey, if we trade BO then Miller can stay at centre.  Either way we still need that true 3C whether we keep BO or not.  The rolling of 3 lines may work in the short term but long term it's not going to be successful...

I actually think this has been a bit confusing for the team since Miller came. Miller and Bo have much the same roles, including face off deployment, which leads to no specific 3C. 

I think there needs to be a reallignment where we have the roles more spelled out.

I am really glad we don't have TG's mish mash line ups anymore, those were so confusing.

[JM_]

4 minutes ago, aGENT said:

So much drama and angst in here... I'm just patiently waiting for the extension announcement 

Bo's extension seems as inventible as the sun coming up. He's not going anywhere. I think the only thing keeping this thread going is people still wanting to fight over Miller.

 

I'm hoping for something in the 6's, 8 years for him is fine too. 

[aGENT]

3 minutes ago, JM_ said:

Bo's extension seems as inventible as the sun coming up. He's not going anywhere. I think the only thing keeping this thread going is people still wanting to fight over Miller.

 

I'm hoping for something in the 6's, 8 years for him is fine too. 

Yup... Like I said yesterday, $53m/8 years = $6.625AAV.... Just seems to fit.

 

Just figure out the structure, bonuses, trade clauses etc and call it a day.

[Nucker 67]

Well, if the Canucks re-sign Horvat, they'll be one of the best teams down the middle in the league, maybe for years. They have an elite Top 5 goaltender in the league, and quite a few good wingers too.

 

That D needs help though.  Myers is not a very good Dman, yet he's having to play in the top pairing. Schenn is not a Top 4 Dman anymore, but again, there's no one else good enough to play the right side. The bottom pairing is a mish-mash of whoever steps in that day - Rathbone, Dermott, Burroughs, Poolman. 

Poolman might not even be able to play anymore, we'll see.

 

IMO they need an upgrade on Myers and should do what they need to do to improve the D, even if it means trading Garland or Boeser.. 

 

Hughes - X

OEL - Myers

Rathbone - Schenn

Poolman

Dermott

[wai_lai416]

honestly i have no issue paying horvat 7x8.. as long as we stop having dead caps buy out retention bonus etc.. it doesn't really hurt that much to have 3 centers in the 7-8 range.. most team carry around 2-4mil worth of dead cap every year anyways + a bunch of overpaid contracts.. if we can keep the overpaid and dead cap to a minimal.. paying horvat 7 mil doesn't really hurt the team.. i rather take horvat at 7mil.. then continously adding overpaid contracts on the team.. before it was rousell beagle le.. and now it's poolman and dickinson and possibly mihkeyev whom i still believe is overpaid by 750k.. that woulda easily covered horvat and the difference.

[-Vintage Canuck-]

 

[IBatch]

37 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

honestly i have no issue paying horvat 7x8.. as long as we stop having dead caps buy out retention bonus etc.. it doesn't really hurt that much to have 3 centers in the 7-8 range.. most team carry around 2-4mil worth of dead cap every year anyways + a bunch of overpaid contracts.. if we can keep the overpaid and dead cap to a minimal.. paying horvat 7 mil doesn't really hurt the team.. i rather take horvat at 7mil.. then continously adding overpaid contracts on the team.. before it was rousell beagle le.. and now it's poolman and dickinson and possibly mihkeyev whom i still believe is overpaid by 750k.. that woulda easily covered horvat and the difference.

Horvat scored 17 EV goals last year good for 94th.   Garland was 83rd.   His first half Horvat was on pace for 40 points and that's being generous.  Second half a lot more but exploded on the PP.  Miller was 34th in EV goals.    Sure he got his points distributing the puck with QHs on the PP.     Why should Horvat become one of the top paid forwards in the league, for that sort of production?  And before you say he can do what Miller did - well go check out the line combos from last season.   Horvat had Brock, Garland and EP on his line at different times.    Apparently Pearson is the secret weapon for him.   Even strength wise. 

 

We can't assume Horvat becomes a PPG even playing with EP and Brock or Garland or whomever.   He's been a fixture on the first PP unit for half a decade, and that's where a lot of his points come from.     EP only scored 3 more goals then Horvat did EV strength last year - a whole 20 goals.   Debrusk in  Boston got 22.  Should he get 10 million (EPs next deal - that's for you AV) and should Horvat get paid as a top 30-50 (center/winger) 

forward despite  producing like a top 80-90 forward?   Not really.  

 

We can't pay for potential on Horvat at this stage of the game.   Sure he's important.   Of course he is.    Do people already forget he was a no show half the season?   Bruce isn't a magician is he?  

 

Once he starts rolling 3 lines all the time, all these guys stats will take a hit including Horvats.   Guys scored 60 points once.    Landeskog ... scored what before he signed his last deal?  And get his line mates helped a lot.   But even still, straight up, I'd take Landeskog over Horvat any day of the week. 

 

Edited September 21, 2022 by IBatch

[Elias Pettersson]

6 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

i dunno how you get horvat is a 1500 faceoff guy max. horvat have been average 21-22 faceoff a night even when Miller is around.. 82 game season is over 1700-1800 faceoff.. if the season wasn't shortened the previous 2 he's over 1800 again.. and this season his first injury in a while.. he's basically taken top 5 most faceoff in the league in the last 5 seasons.. 21-22 faceoff a night is very reasonable considering how many time the opposing team will play their top line.. or are we going to use the well he only took 1400 last season don't care if he missed 12 games or not dont care if the previous seasons were shorten that's his problem.. so therefore he's max 1500 faceoff guy a night.. lazar can take defensive draws? so if the other team puts out their top line we are going to counter with 4th line lazar to take faceoff? or we going to make miller take more defensive draws and less offensive draws to cover? you think Miller is touching anywhere close to 99 points if he have to take more and more defensive draws? 

 

the team can't collectively as a whole replace millers 99 point according to some of you.. but the team can collectively replace his 30+ goals and 1700-1800 faceoff without missing a beat? a bit bias there with the miller love fest

I'm not sure how much more clear it needs to be for you that Horvat is at 1500 faceoffs per year since Miller arrived in 2019.  Maybe this chart can help clear your mind.  I don't really care about the shortened seasons either because everyone else's numbers are lower as well.  As you can see from the chart even before Miller arrived BO was never over 1500 faceoffs other than in 2018...

 

Season	Age	Tm	Lg	GP	G	A	PTS	+/-	PIM	EV	PP	SH	GW	EV	PP	SH	S	S%	TSA	TOI	ATOI	FOW	FOL	FO%	BLK	HIT	TK	GV	Awards
2014-15	19	VAN	NHL	68	13	12	25	-8	16	12	0	1	1	12	0	0	93	14.0	142	834	12:16	436	409	51.6	47	69	13	10	Calder-11
2015-16	20	VAN	NHL	82	16	24	40	-30	18	12	4	0	4	16	8	0	155	10.3	245	1405	17:08	760	733	50.9	53	69	27	17
2016-17	21	VAN	NHL	81	20	32	52	-7	27	15	3	2	1	25	7	0	158	12.7	286	1461	18:02	756	742	50.5	41	65	37	27
2017-18	22	VAN	NHL	64	22	22	44	-1	10	11	10	1	3	19	3	0	158	13.9	253	1238	19:21	712	612	53.8	29	35	22	25
2018-19	23	VAN	NHL	82	27	34	61	-4	33	18	7	2	3	22	11	1	227	11.9	355	1709	20:50	1083	935	53.7	63	62	28	38
2019-20	24	VAN	NHL	69	22	31	53	-15	21	10	12	0	2	27	4	0	178	12.4	274	1362	19:44	850	633	57.3	66	55	28	27
2020-21	25	VAN	NHL	56	19	20	39	-6	23	11	7	1	3	16	4	0	131	14.5	226	1114	19:53	648	577	52.9	38	64	25	22
2021-22	26	VAN	NHL	70	31	21	52	3	40	17	13	1	4	15	6	0	194	16.0	303	1366	19:31	841	634	57.0	45	96	32	25	Selke-34

 

Edited September 21, 2022 by Elias Pettersson

[wai_lai416]

5 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Horvat scored 17 EV goals last year good for 94th.   Garland was 83rd.   His first half Horvat was on pace for 40 points and that's being generous.  Second half a lot more but exploded on the PP.  Miller was 34th in EV goals.    Sure he got his points distributing the puck with QHs on the PP.     Why should Horvat become one of the top paid forwards in the league, for that sort of production?  And before you say he can do what Miller did - well go check out the line combos from last season.   Horvat had Brock, Garland and EP on his line at different times.    Apparently Pearson is the secret weapon for him.   Even strength wise. 

 

We can't assume Horvat becomes a PPG even playing with EP and Brock or Garland or whomever.   He's been a fixture on the first PP unit for half a decade, and that's where a lot of his points come from.     EP only scored 3 more goals then Horvat did EV strength last year - a whole 20 goals.   Debrusk in  Boston got 22.  Should he get 10 million (EPs next deal - that's for you AV) and should Horvat get paid as a top 30-50 (center/winger) 

forward despite  producing like a top 80-90 forward?   Not really.  

 

We can't pay for potential on Horvat at this stage of the game.   Sure he's important.   Of course he is.    Do people already forget he was a no show half the season?   Bruce isn't a magician is he?  

 

Once he starts rolling 3 lines all the time, all these guys stats will take a hit including Horvats.   Guys scored 60 points once.    Landeskog ... scored what before he signed his last deal?  And get his line mates helped a lot.   But even still, straight up, I'd take Landeskog over Horvat any day of the week. 

 

again i still don't get your point.. horvat have 17 goals EV vs Miller have 24 goals EV.. who plays more tougher matchup EV? Horvat or Miller? so horvat only have 7 less goals in 20 less games than Miller EV playing on the 2nd line with lesser linemates while playing against the other teams top line therefore horvat is bad EV? almost all of horvat's assist in 5v5 situation are primary assist.. what does that tell you? his linemates have 0 playmaking capability.. he also doesn't have the luxury or playing with a QH 5v5 most of the time. brock and ep on his line is very minimal.. brock is literally on JT millers line for 90% of the season 5v5 and EP was on his own line majority of the season. you talked as if they were his most consistent linemates all year.

 

3 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

I'm not sure how much more clear it needs to be for you that Horvat is at 1500 faceoffs per year since Miller arrived in 2019.  Maybe this chart can help clear your mind.  I don't really care about the shortened seasons either because everyone else's numbers are lower as well.  As you can see from the chart even before Miller arrived BO was never over 1500 faceoffs other than in 2018...

 

Season	Age	Tm	Lg	GP	G	A	PTS	+/-	PIM	EV	PP	SH	GW	EV	PP	SH	S	S%	TSA	TOI	ATOI	FOW	FOL	FO%	BLK	HIT	TK	GV	Awards
2014-15	19	VAN	NHL	68	13	12	25	-8	16	12	0	1	1	12	0	0	93	14.0	142	834	12:16	436	409	51.6	47	69	13	10	Calder-11
2015-16	20	VAN	NHL	82	16	24	40	-30	18	12	4	0	4	16	8	0	155	10.3	245	1405	17:08	760	733	50.9	53	69	27	17
2016-17	21	VAN	NHL	81	20	32	52	-7	27	15	3	2	1	25	7	0	158	12.7	286	1461	18:02	756	742	50.5	41	65	37	27
2017-18	22	VAN	NHL	64	22	22	44	-1	10	11	10	1	3	19	3	0	158	13.9	253	1238	19:21	712	612	53.8	29	35	22	25
2018-19	23	VAN	NHL	82	27	34	61	-4	33	18	7	2	3	22	11	1	227	11.9	355	1709	20:50	1083	935	53.7	63	62	28	38
2019-20	24	VAN	NHL	69	22	31	53	-15	21	10	12	0	2	27	4	0	178	12.4	274	1362	19:44	850	633	57.3	66	55	28	27
2020-21	25	VAN	NHL	56	19	20	39	-6	23	11	7	1	3	16	4	0	131	14.5	226	1114	19:53	648	577	52.9	38	64	25	22
2021-22	26	VAN	NHL	70	31	21	52	3	40	17	13	1	4	15	6	0	194	16.0	303	1366	19:31	841	634	57.0	45	96	32	25	Selke-34

 

so are you telling me if bo plays 82 games this season they will drop his avg number of faceoff from 22 to 18? just so he stays under 1500? bo have avg 21-22 faceoff a game the past 5 seasons.. what is so hard to understand about that? so are you saying all the future season bo will play less than 70 games or every season the NHL season would be shortened?? coz unless they change his deployment he is still going to get 21-22 draws a night? and that'll end up to be 1700-1800? since Miller's arrival his avg number of faceoff per game never really dropped?? so what the heck are you even getting at?

[Elias Pettersson]

2 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

again i still don't get your point.. horvat have 17 goals EV vs Miller have 24 goals EV.. who plays more tougher matchup EV? Horvat or Miller? so horvat only have 7 less goals in 20 less games than Miller EV playing on the 2nd line with lesser linemates while playing against the other teams top line therefore horvat is bad EV? almost all of horvat's assist in 5v5 situation are primary assist.. what does that tell you? his linemates have 0 playmaking capability.. he also doesn't have the luxury or playing with a QH 5v5 most of the time. brock and ep on his line is very minimal.. brock is literally on JT millers line for 90% of the season 5v5 and EP was on his own line majority of the season. you talked as if they were his most consistent linemates all year.

 

so are you telling me if bo plays 82 games this season they will drop his avg number of faceoff from 22 to 18? just so he stays under 1500? bo have avg 21-22 faceoff a game the past 5 seasons.. what is so hard to understand about that? so are you saying all the future season bo will play less than 70 games or every season the NHL season would be shortened?? coz unless they change his deployment he is still going to get 21-22 draws a night? and that'll end up to be 1700-1800? since Miller's arrival his avg number of faceoff per game never really dropped?? so what the heck are you even getting at?

You know what, we are a bottom feeding non playoff team since BO arrived.  He's done nothing to help up get to the promised land.  So I don't really care whether he signs here or not.  If JR wants to trade him for a top 4 Dman I would be all for it.  There are lots of guys out there we can chase down who can play as a true 3C.  BO isn't the second coming and he's not great defensively, as you said he was put in that role by force, and quite frankly he's not a great leader either (he's no Stan Smyl or Trevor Linden)...

[D.B Cooper]

12 hours ago, McBackup said:

 

 

 

 

How long has he been in the league?

This isn’t impressive.  
also, Bo is like 6’ 220lbs.  He should be a monster out there.  
Instead……. Meow

[grandmaster]

18 minutes ago, D.B Cooper said:

How long has he been in the league?

This isn’t impressive.  
also, Bo is like 6’ 220lbs.  He should be a monster out there.  
Instead……. Meow

Don’t agree with you but that was too funny

 

[wai_lai416]

26 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

You know what, we are a bottom feeding non playoff team since BO arrived.  He's done nothing to help up get to the promised land.  So I don't really care whether he signs here or not.  If JR wants to trade him for a top 4 Dman I would be all for it.  There are lots of guys out there we can chase down who can play as a true 3C.  BO isn't the second coming and he's not great defensively, as you said he was put in that role by force, and quite frankly he's not a great leader either (he's no Stan Smyl or Trevor Linden)...

Same can be said for every single player on this team including miller. He obviously didn’t move the needle since we missed the playoff every year he arrived well not every year we made the charity play in. Waiting for the team to get rid of bo so miller can become the 70-80 point player because he will have more defensive and matchup responsibility.. Miller ain’t no Stan Smyl or Trevor linden either and give 110% every shift. No one on this team is even remotely close 

[Sophomore Jinx]

2 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

Same can be said for every single player on this team including miller. He obviously didn’t move the needle since we missed the playoff every year he arrived well not every year we made the charity play in. Waiting for the team to get rid of bo so miller can become the 70-80 point player because he will have more defensive and matchup responsibility.. Miller ain’t no Stan Smyl or Trevor linden either and give 110% every shift. No one on this team is even remotely close 

We've had Bo for 8 years, Miller only 3. Get back to me after Miller has had the same and we'll compare notes, and I hope you're not implying that Cap'n Lil Bo Peep gives "110% every shift" 

[Elias Pettersson]

8 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

Same can be said for every single player on this team including miller. He obviously didn’t move the needle since we missed the playoff every year he arrived well not every year we made the charity play in. Waiting for the team to get rid of bo so miller can become the 70-80 point player because he will have more defensive and matchup responsibility.. Miller ain’t no Stan Smyl or Trevor linden either and give 110% every shift. No one on this team is even remotely close 

BO has been around since 2014.  Miller did his part, got 99 points.  We made a huge commitment to keep him.  Huggy has been breaking every defenceman scoring record since he arrived.  Demko is a top 5 goalie in the league, not much more he can do.  Petey won the Calder and since has regressed, but we know his talent and it's just a matter of time before he is a 90-100 point player as he is young enough to have the time to get there.

 

BO is BO.  He's 27 now.  He will never be an elite offensive performer regardless of what you say and who he plays with.  He's not great defensively and he's not a great leader.  He's a good 2C who can fill a role on the team.  We have lots of forwards and need help on defence.  So BO seems the logical choice to move at this point for help on defence.

[grandmaster]

It’s pretty sad that “Canuck fans” bash their own core players to prove a point.  Let’s keep this respectable. You will be cheering for that player when the season starts. We have no clue what is really happening behind the scenes. Let management worry about the contract issues. 

[McBackup]

33 minutes ago, D.B Cooper said:

How long has he been in the league?

This isn’t impressive.  
also, Bo is like 6’ 220lbs.  He should be a monster out there.  
Instead……. Meow

"Bo is soft. He doesn't punch back or stick up for himself or the team"

 

Here are multiple examples of Bo not being soft, fighting and sticking up for himself and the team.

 

"Oh yeah but that doesn't count."

 

Okay. Great goalpost moving. Let's trade Bo for Tom Wilson and make him captain then. 

 

Of course nothing short of a captain who gets ejected every night and personally writes a handritten note calling your mother a bitch will ever be "hard enough to play against" for people with this mindset.

[cripplereh]

20 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

BO has been around since 2014.  Miller did his part, got 99 points.  We made a huge commitment to keep him.  Huggy has been breaking every defenceman scoring record since he arrived.  Demko is a top 5 goalie in the league, not much more he can do.  Petey won the Calder and since has regressed, but we know his talent and it's just a matter of time before he is a 90-100 point player as he is young enough to have the time to get there.

 

BO is BO.  He's 27 now.  He will never be an elite offensive performer regardless of what you say and who he plays with.  He's not great defensively and he's not a great leader.  He's a good 2C who can fill a role on the team.  We have lots of forwards and need help on defence.  So BO seems the logical choice to move at this point for help on defence.

Yes but you win cups with centers and Bo is a good leader best on the team we have.To me getting a top 4 D would be BB in a package before moving Bo.Wingers are easier to replace then a center.If anyone goes should be the slower BB as we want to get faster.

Edited September 21, 2022 by cripplereh

[cripplereh]

To me I think people want the highest scoring player to be captain.That should not happen as most can't handle the extra pressure.Linden wasn't the highest scorer and was one of the best we had if not the best.You put Bo on the team as captain that we had in any cup run and nobody would be saying he shouldn't be captain instead of how good he is.

[spook007]

2 hours ago, aGENT said:

Yup... Like I said yesterday, $53m/8 years = $6.625AAV.... Just seems to fit.

 

Just figure out the structure, bonuses, trade clauses etc and call it a day.

That would be perfect....