No Core Player NEEDS to be traded...

[khay]

33 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Don't forget that TB also actually bottomed out.   Stamkos was a first overall pick, and Hedman a second (by memory too lazy to look it up but pretty certain he went second).... our club never did - although we did come close a two years.    

 

Also the AHL is nothing like it was a decade ago.    Both the SHL and the KHL have surpassed it.    Developing guys in any of those leagues is fair.    This talk is exactly what JB was trying to do - create an environment where no players were gifted a spot - by signing overpaid vets they'd have to push out.   Having our AHL farm team close is going to help things as far as logistics go, but it's not the only developmental league anymore and hasn't been for quite some time.   AHL at one point was almost as good as the NHL (original six days) ask Johnny Bower.    College is also a legit route as well.  

Thanks for the insight. I had no idea that the AHL was almost as good as the NHL . I agree that SHL may have even passed the AHL but I've only watched an SHL game live once so I'm not ready to bet the farm on that notion. 

 

As for TB bottoming out, I sort of see us having bottomed out from 2016 to 2018 where we got EP (a franchise forward like Stamkos) and Hughes (a franchise Dman like Hedman).

 

One major difference is that they actually got #1 and #2 overall picks. We got them at #5 and #7. And I guess EP's development sort of got stunted starting last season. Stammer never really had a down year. But Hedman did take few more years to reach his current level whereas Hughes was an allstar caliber player from the beginning so maybe that evens out. All that matters is that EP reach an elite level within 2-3 years or at least show the signs of progression towards becoming an elite player.

 

[IBatch]

16 hours ago, khay said:

Thanks for the insight. I had no idea that the AHL was almost as good as the NHL . I agree that SHL may have even passed the AHL but I've only watched an SHL game live once so I'm not ready to bet the farm on that notion. 

 

As for TB bottoming out, I sort of see us having bottomed out from 2016 to 2018 where we got EP (a franchise forward like Stamkos) and Hughes (a franchise Dman like Hedman).

 

One major difference is that they actually got #1 and #2 overall picks. We got them at #5 and #7. And I guess EP's development sort of got stunted starting last season. Stammer never really had a down year. But Hedman did take few more years to reach his current level whereas Hughes was an allstar caliber player from the beginning so maybe that evens out. All that matters is that EP reach an elite level within 2-3 years or at least show the signs of progression towards becoming an elite player.

 

Stamkos first season wasn't very good.  But he came in right after the draft.   Second was amazing.   That guys going into the HHOF.    Without his broken leg i'd bet he'd have another 50 goals and 100 points.    EP is no Stamkos.   QHs vs Hedman.    Well that's a really tough comp.   Hedman is 6'6" and plays like it. How many Norris nominations does he have now?   He's like AP on steroids.   Also going to the HHOF.   Personally feel that both EP and QHs are a level down.    EP however, we've seen this - has the potential to win Art Ross and Hart trophies.   Hope for our sake he does. 

 

Edit:  A healthy Stamkos will end up with over 600 goals and 1200 points.   That puts him in the all-time greats discussion.    And to me Hedman is this generations Larry Robinson minus the toughness. 

Edited February 9, 2022 by IBatch

[HKSR]

Meanwhile, back somewhere around 2017 to 2019 in a land far far away known as Ottawa:

 

"We NEED to move on from Mark Stone and Matt Duchene... they simply don't work with the age timelines of our young guns.  If we move them, we will gain a ton of assets and be able to build around our young core.  In 4 to 5 years, we'll be contenders!

 

We already have Tkachuk, Chabot, Norris, Logan Brown, Anthony Duclair, and Colin White.  That's a solid core right there.  In 4 to 5 years, these guys will hit their prime and we can add a top tier A-level prospect like Erik Brannstrom for Stone, and maybe another top tier prospect for Duchene, and we'll be laughing to the Stanley Cup Finals!"

 

2021-22 has entered the chat.

 

 

 

 

 

[lmm]

22 minutes ago, HKSR said:

Meanwhile, back somewhere around 2017 to 2019 in a land far far away known as Ottawa:

 

"We NEED to move on from Mark Stone and Matt Duchene... they simply don't work with the age timelines of our young guns.  If we move them, we will gain a ton of assets and be able to build around our young core.  In 4 to 5 years, we'll be contenders!

 

We already have Tkachuk, Chabot, Norris, Logan Brown, Anthony Duclair, and Colin White.  That's a solid core right there.  In 4 to 5 years, these guys will hit their prime and we can add a top tier A-level prospect like Erik Brannstrom for Stone, and maybe another top tier prospect for Duchene, and we'll be laughing to the Stanley Cup Finals!"

 

2021-22 has entered the chat.

 

 

 

 

 

was that an actual quote?

and if so  from whom?

I never understood the Stone trade, and that was a poor return

but I can see trading Duchene, but again that was a poor return

those trades were only 3 years ago, so there is some time for a couple of the players returned

But mostly the returned players left to play in Europe

Lassi and Sokolov might turn out alright

I wouldn't trade for a 5'9" defenseman unless he was better than Quinn Hughes

NOt sure why Vegas drafted him so high

 

I don't really see the value in always comparing the Canucks to the worst in the league though

[HKSR]

4 minutes ago, lmm said:

was that an actual quote?

and if so  from whom?

I never understood the Stone trade, and that was a poor return

but I can see trading Duchene, but again that was a poor return

those trades were only 3 years ago, so there is some time for a couple of the players returned

But mostly the returned players left to play in Europe

Lassi and Sokolov might turn out alright

I wouldn't trade for a 5'9" defenseman unless he was better than Quinn Hughes

NOt sure why Vegas drafted him so high

 

I don't really see the value in always comparing the Canucks to the worst in the league though

No sorry, that's a made up quote.  I'm just trying to state the mentality of Ottawa fans back then eerily mirror the mentality of some Canucks fans today wanting to move Miller and/or Boeser/Bo.

[khay]

5 hours ago, IBatch said:

Stamkos first season wasn't very good.  But he came in right after the draft.   Second was amazing.   That guys going into the HHOF.    Without his broken leg i'd bet he'd have another 50 goals and 100 points.    EP is no Stamkos.   QHs vs Hedman.    Well that's a really tough comp.   Hedman is 6'6" and plays like it. How many Norris nominations does he have now?   He's like AP on steroids.   Also going to the HHOF.   Personally feel that both EP and QHs are a level down.    EP however, we've seen this - has the potential to win Art Ross and Hart trophies.   Hope for our sake he does. 

 

Edit:  A healthy Stamkos will end up with over 600 goals and 1200 points.   That puts him in the all-time greats discussion.    And to me Hedman is this generations Larry Robinson minus the toughness. 

Yes, if we are comparing the quality of players  Stamkos >> EP, Hedman > QH. But EP and QH are too young and compare to these two future hall of famers isn't really fair.

 

QH is still developing his game and we don't know exactly how far he will go. The gap between Hedman and QH may not end up as big when it's all said and done. For one, QH could put up 1000 points as a defenceman. That's something Hedman is not going to come even close to doing.

 

Stammer and EP are different style of players. I think a name that was thrown out as a comparable play style was Datsyuk. One could argue that Datsyuk > Stamkos in terms of helping the team win and playing the complete game.

 

I saw EP covering the front of the net and intercepting a pass that would have resulted in a scoring chance for Arizona. He does something like this on a nightly basis. That's why I can overlook his offensive miscues. People focus on the puck slipping of his stick or falling and say he sucks a$$ but as long as he plays the team game, I will always defend him.

 

EP has very high defensive IQ. Something that Stammer doesn't have. 

 

 

[khay]

2 hours ago, HKSR said:

Meanwhile, back somewhere around 2017 to 2019 in a land far far away known as Ottawa:

 

"We NEED to move on from Mark Stone and Matt Duchene... they simply don't work with the age timelines of our young guns.  If we move them, we will gain a ton of assets and be able to build around our young core.  In 4 to 5 years, we'll be contenders!

 

We already have Tkachuk, Chabot, Norris, Logan Brown, Anthony Duclair, and Colin White.  That's a solid core right there.  In 4 to 5 years, these guys will hit their prime and we can add a top tier A-level prospect like Erik Brannstrom for Stone, and maybe another top tier prospect for Duchene, and we'll be laughing to the Stanley Cup Finals!"

 

2021-22 has entered the chat.

 

 

 

 

 

Moving on from Stone was a mistake. But maybe he requested a trade or that he didn't want to re-sign there? 

 

Then, they did the right thing by trading him. The fact that they couldn't maximize return is Ottawa's fault. I hope we don't repeat that with Miller.

 

[IBatch]

1 minute ago, khay said:

Yes, if we are comparing the quality of players  Stamkos >> EP, Hedman > QH. But EP and QH are too young and compare to these two future hall of famers isn't really fair.

 

QH is still developing his game and we don't know exactly how far he will go. The gap between Hedman and QH may not end up as big when it's all said and done. For one, QH could put up 1000 points as a defenceman. That's something Hedman is not going to come even close to doing.

 

Stammer and EP are different style of players. I think a name that was thrown out as a comparable play style was Datsyuk. One could argue that Datsyuk > Stamkos in terms of helping the team win and playing the complete game.

 

I saw EP covering the front of the net and intercepting a pass that would have resulted in a scoring chance for Arizona. He does something like this on a nightly basis. That's why I can overlook his offensive miscues. People focus on the puck slipping of his stick or falling and say he sucks a$$ but as long as he plays the team game, I will always defend him.

 

EP has very high defensive IQ. Something that Stammer doesn't have. 

 

 

Stamkos was miles ahead of were EP is right now as a player.    Not even going to check the stats - i know this because he was ripping apart the league after his first season and really his first season was decent for an 18 year old.  The Datsyuk comps were fair when they were made, but we've only seen glimpses of that the last two seasons....and like I said still believe EPs got a chance to be one of the leagues best players ... also remember that been said about Kovalev...never happened.   Others too.    QHs would have to outscore Hedman by a ton to equal them same impact.   Won't guess on that ... was Lidstrom the last guy to break 1000?   Maybe Burns or EK can also do it.  

[khay]

1 minute ago, IBatch said:

Stamkos was miles ahead of were EP is right now as a player.    Not even going to check the stats - i know this because he was ripping apart the league after his first season and really his first season was decent for an 18 year old.  The Datsyuk comps were fair when they were made, but we've only seen glimpses of that the last two seasons....and like I said still believe EPs got a chance to be one of the leagues best players ... also remember that been said about Kovalev...never happened.   Others too.    QHs would have to outscore Hedman by a ton to equal them same impact.   Won't guess on that ... was Lidstrom the last guy to break 1000?   Maybe Burns or EK can also do it.  

Karlsson's probably not gonna be able to do it with his current scoring pace. Will need minimum 8 full seasons scoring at 0.5-0.6 PPG but I don't think think he will be able to play 8 full seasons let alone scoring at 0.5-0.6 PPG.

 

I think you are right about Lidstrom. He is the last D to hit 1000 points. 

 

I'd say Quinn Hughes and obviously Cale Makar have the best shots to be the next ones.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that, EP and QH doesn't have to be like Stamkos and Hedman for us to win. In fact, Tampa won in 2020 without Stamkos. We can still follow Tampa's path, by doing a quick retool like Tampa did in 2014 and 2015. 

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, khay said:

Karlsson's probably not gonna be able to do it with his current scoring pace. Will need minimum 8 full seasons scoring at 0.5-0.6 PPG but I don't think think he will be able to play 8 full seasons let alone scoring at 0.5-0.6 PPG.

 

I think you are right about Lidstrom. He is the last D to hit 1000 points. 

 

I'd say Quinn Hughes and obviously Cale Makar have the best shots to be the next ones.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that, EP and QH doesn't have to be like Stamkos and Hedman for us to win. In fact, Tampa won in 2020 without Stamkos. We can still follow Tampa's path, by doing a quick retool like Tampa did in 2014 and 2015. 

No they don't.   On EK yes i doubt it too ... yet he's in some pretty good company, Orr, Coffey and Potvin - only other D's to be in the leagues top ten in scoring 3 times.   Only 31...350 points to go is a stretch but he's actually on pace for 20 goals over an 82 game season now ... so wouldn't put it past him either.   Cooke ruined a few careers ... EK was one of them.   Can easily see EK scoring at a 50-60 point pace for the next 4 years ... and wouldn't at all surprise me to see a 70-80 point season in there either.    What i don't expect, is to see QHs to match EKs current career goals.    EK would probably have to play until he's 38-40 to make it.   Doubtful for sure.   Severed achilles' tendon is a rough tough injury. 

Edited February 9, 2022 by IBatch

[Kevin Biestra]

30 minutes ago, IBatch said:

No they don't.   On EK yes i doubt it too ... yet he's in some pretty good company, Orr, Coffey and Potvin - only other D's to be in the leagues top ten in scoring 3 times.   Only 31...350 points to go is a stretch but he's actually on pace for 20 goals over an 82 game season now ... so wouldn't put it past him either.   Cooke ruined a few careers ... EK was one of them.   Can easily see EK scoring at a 50-60 point pace for the next 4 years ... and wouldn't at all surprise me to see a 70-80 point season in there either.    What i don't expect, is to see QHs to match EKs current career goals.    EK would probably have to play until he's 38-40 to make it.   Doubtful for sure.   Severed achilles' tendon is a rough tough injury. 

 

Hughes is on pace to have trouble scoring 100 career goals.

 

Dave Babych had 85 after six seasons, 107 after eight.  Was looking at his stats...  Years 2 through 6 he had 68, 74, 57, 62 and 69 points.  And the 57 point season he missed 14 games.  Three of those seasons would be the Canucks record.

Edited February 9, 2022 by Kevin Biestra

[SilentSam]

KHL regular season is over.

His Team is out of the playoffs.

Signed for one more season in the KHL for roughly 1m usd.

He is ours until Aug. 1st.

a small buy out of his contract is a possibility..

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rindiculous]

On 2/2/2022 at 2:43 PM, Maddogy said:

As I mentioned in other threads, the biggest hockey mistake made by J.B. and the ownership was to bet on the core players (especially Pettersson and Boeser) as well as some of our young players (e.g. Virtanen and Gaudette) to take the next step in their development and put the team on their shoulders. Pettersson and Boeser have failed miserably not as young players but as franchise players. Had J.B. and ownership known that their bet was premature they would have taken a very different approach. 

 

If J.B. ever gets another G.M. job he would likely preach patience to the ownership even if the core players on that team have exceeded expectations early on. 

 

It's almost like you think franchise players grow on trees and they're super easy to draft.  Well, news alert, we were the worst team in the league for 3 years and we got royally &^@#ed by the league drafting at the highest of 5th overall.  What makes you think that if we sucked any longer, something different would happen?  And yes Petey and Boeser looked like they could be franchise players and you're lying if you didn't believe so yourself before this season.  Take off the recency goggles and think back to the 2019/20 season.

[lmm]

5 hours ago, HKSR said:

No sorry, that's a made up quote.  I'm just trying to state the mentality of Ottawa fans back then eerily mirror the mentality of some Canucks fans today wanting to move Miller and/or Boeser/Bo.

Its funny though because the Ottawa situation is fairly similar to the Vancouver situation.

Both rented  a plane

both called out ownership

 

I am not sure the fan base was at all pleased with what went down as far as trades go

I think they did pretty good with the Karlsson deal

but Hoffman, Duchene and Stone didn't return much

I have never wanted Duchene, Turris, Boedker on my team, but they keep getting traded for each other

 

I like the Ottawa team now though

and they do have a couple (not many) pieces that could help from those deals

 

It kind of seems that once they started trading their good players they lost what little control they had

I really don't like the Stone deal, and he is now Captain of Vegas

[HKSR]

1 minute ago, lmm said:

Its funny though because the Ottawa situation is fairly similar to the Vancouver situation.

Both rented  a plane

both called out ownership

 

I am not sure the fan base was at all pleased with what went down as far as trades go

I think they did pretty good with the Karlsson deal

but Hoffman, Duchene and Stone didn't return much

I have never wanted Duchene, Turris, Boedker on my team, but they keep getting traded for each other

 

I like the Ottawa team now though

and they do have a couple (not many) pieces that could help from those deals

 

It kind of seems that once they started trading their good players they lost what little control they had

I really don't like the Stone deal, and he is now Captain of Vegas

End of the day, we gotta remember that these players are people.  Start trading away top players, and the others wonder why go through a rebuild or retool process when they can simply leave too. 

 

For Ottawa, it started with Karlsson... their best player.  Then it went from there...

[lmm]

3 minutes ago, HKSR said:

End of the day, we gotta remember that these players are people.  Start trading away top players, and the others wonder why go through a rebuild or retool process when they can simply leave too. 

 

For Ottawa, it started with Karlsson... their best player.  Then it went from there...

That seems like what happened with the players Ottawa brought in with most of those trades

Guys played out the season , then left

 

Its kind of funny because I was talking with someone a while back, possibly pre-Bruce/New Jim

they were saying "No NHL player will give up on the coach/manager..."

but that seems to have happened in Ottawa and Vancouver

Its not just the trading of a star, but Ottawa was a zoo for a while there, Melnyk calling out the fans, Karlsson/Hoffman wives

and much as some fans refuse to see it, Benning "Running out of time" etc from the bubble until his firing, and the notion that Aqua was the real GM is/was pretty similar

not identical, but similar

I believe the players know when management is losing trades and value

 

[Warhippy]

You'll excuse the spam, I am posting this in a few threads because I feel people need to seriously see our odds on even sniffing the playoffs.

 

Ahead of us in our division alone are 

 

San Jose

Edmonton

Calgary

Anaheim

Los Angeles

Vegas

 

That's JUST our division with us having played more games than all but Vegas and Anaheim.

 

If we look at the wild card, we have 

 

San Jose

Edmonton

Dallas

Calgary

St Louis

 

All ahead of us all with a minimum of 2+ games at hand, and Winnipeg 3 points behind us with 5 games at hand.  We would literally need to hope a minimum of 5 entire teams with games at hand do worse than us by +/- 7 games while we go a minimum of something like 15-4-5 to end the season JUST to hit the 94 point mark.

 

While stranger things have happened, asking us to somehow play a near .700 over our remaining games while all the teams ahead of us with 2+ games at hand and already large point cushions (barring San Jose, Dallas and Edmonton) play sub .400 is an impossibility.

 

While we are enjoying the run.  While it is exciting to watch and while we see what is possible.  it is just literally impossible to see this team achieve anything more than a 12th place pick in the draft lottery for their efforts.

 

This isn't hate, this is a mathematical statement of fact.  The Canucks can not and will not make the playoffs barring an unbelievable run of luck the likes of which beggars what the Blues did to win their cup.

 

So while the hope of hanging on to core players is nice; the fact is even if we do we're not making the playoffs this year and could watch some of them leave next year regardless

[wai_lai416]

10 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

You'll excuse the spam, I am posting this in a few threads because I feel people need to seriously see our odds on even sniffing the playoffs.

 

Ahead of us in our division alone are 

 

San Jose

Edmonton

Calgary

Anaheim

Los Angeles

Vegas

 

That's JUST our division with us having played more games than all but Vegas and Anaheim.

 

If we look at the wild card, we have 

 

San Jose

Edmonton

Dallas

Calgary

St Louis

 

All ahead of us all with a minimum of 2+ games at hand, and Winnipeg 3 points behind us with 5 games at hand.  We would literally need to hope a minimum of 5 entire teams with games at hand do worse than us by +/- 7 games while we go a minimum of something like 15-4-5 to end the season JUST to hit the 94 point mark.

 

While stranger things have happened, asking us to somehow play a near .700 over our remaining games while all the teams ahead of us with 2+ games at hand and already large point cushions (barring San Jose, Dallas and Edmonton) play sub .400 is an impossibility.

 

While we are enjoying the run.  While it is exciting to watch and while we see what is possible.  it is just literally impossible to see this team achieve anything more than a 12th place pick in the draft lottery for their efforts.

 

This isn't hate, this is a mathematical statement of fact.  The Canucks can not and will not make the playoffs barring an unbelievable run of luck the likes of which beggars what the Blues did to win their cup.

 

So while the hope of hanging on to core players is nice; the fact is even if we do we're not making the playoffs this year and could watch some of them leave next year regardless

We realistically have to go 20-8-6 to even sniff the playoff.. 

 

Since the covid break in December?? We are 7-6-4.. back to earth.. and we are going to play literally ever 2nd night from here on out.. ya we ain't making the playoff barring a miracle.

[DefCon1]

Canucks need to keep their young core and get rid of the supporting players

The expendable supporting players includes:

Pearson

Dickenson

Chiasson

Myers

Hamonic

Hunt

Halak

 

They need to be traded or not signed after this season. Thats the number 1 priority for JR if he wants cap flexibility and cutting out the deadweight. Then he can think hard about trading one of Boeser and Miller to get some young and cheap ELC talent. Lets say if we are not making playoffs this year and assuming Miller might not sign with us next year then it will be really important to trade him either at this years trade deadline or next year. Also if Boeser wants 7 million plus for his next contract, he should also be dealt as he is not worth more than 6 million with the way he has played so far throughout his career. 

 

Now Miller being traded to NYR for Schneider and Lundkvist plus a 1st could really jump start the retooling of our D.

 

Hughes-Schneider

Lundkvist-OEL

Rathbone-Schenn

 

That would be a pretry decent D and maybe adding another top 4 UFA Dman with the cap savings could make it a very good group in the future.

 

 

 

[HKSR]

Told ya...