So You Wanna Build a Contender?

[Coconuts]

10 hours ago, JM_ said:

I like to think about management decisions in terms of whats in your direct control. From that pov, whats the "easiest" thing to do if your JR? I'd say its the "sell everyone over 23" tank. Next hardest imo would be finding better complimentary players. The hardest thing to pull off imo is moving e.g., Miller and Boeser for the perfect team fits back, particularly if those deals require teams to move off their best prospects. Not only do teams have to be contenders, have cap space, like Miller but also be willing give up on part of their future. Thats a tall order imo.

 

 

Maybe, but I've never claimed trades are easy to make. The value of players, what players are willing to pay, and what teams want/think they need is always shifting. That being said, trades happen. 

 

It doesn't have to be contenders, it could be teams looking to take the next step too. Or teams who simply want an upgrade or a different look. 

 

10 hours ago, BPA said:

JB was hired in 2014.  The recent changes didn’t take place back then.

 

Tank hard enough in 2014, could have gotten Eckblad, Reinheirt, or Drasitl instead of JV.  In 2015, could have gotten a shot at McDavid instead of getting Boeser (Cuz Sedins had a momentary resurgence).

 

All true enough. Gotta love those little winning stretches at the end of seasons.

 

7 hours ago, higgyfan said:

I full rebuild takes a few years, in which the team runs the risk of losing players that want

to play on a winning team.  There is a chance that Miller and Boeser will be traded in this

offseason.  Pete and Bo may not re-sign.

 

It will be difficult to unload players that have underperformed; of which there are several.

Vancouver will likely land up on the NHL players 'no go to' list.

 

There are a lot of fans that have watched this team struggle (aside for a few winning seasons)

for decades.  I can see them finally bailing on the team if it means yet another rebuild.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Perhaps, but the same can be said of being a team that spins it's wheels and remains a mediocre team. We haven't been a consistent playoff team in about a decade now, let alone a contender.

 

4 hours ago, Baggins said:

Do fans actually have a choice? Unless a fan has the money to buy the team we don't have any choice other than accepting their plan. Liking and accepting are two different things. Many, like me, don't like the idea of setting the team up to lose from day 1. Why would I spend my hard earned money on a team set up to lose? 

 

A five year waiting list disappeared here after missing the playoffs. VanFans are a fickle lot. We're not like the Oilers and Leafs where fans are afraid to give up their season tickets because they may never get them back. Both went through a decade of futility and maintained season ticket sales. The acceptance here is many fans won't go to games if there's an intentional tank. They're hard pressed when the team is questionable for the playoffs.

 

 

That's basically it, fans only have so much of a choice and that involves mouthing off on social media or spending their money. 

 

Fickle sure? But mediocrity with no clear destination will lose you butts in seats the same way losing will. But taking a couple steps back to take several steps forward and communicating with the fanbase while trying to bring in high end young talent? I think folks could stomach that. I sure could. 

[J-23]

Ya, I want to build a contender.

[EddieVedder]

2 hours ago, BPA said:

Yuk on Domi at $6M.  Posters are already complaining of Boeser.  No way is Domi worth $6M if the posters are claiming Boeser is worth less than $6M.

Id rather have Domi at 6 than Boeser anyday.

 

[BPA]

15 minutes ago, EddieVedder said:

Id rather have Domi at 6 than Boeser anyday.

 

Why?

 

Other than his one 72pt season he has underperformed against Boeser.

[luongianone]

4 hours ago, JM_ said:

Love the idea of OEL-Severson, that would be amazing. I thought I read he wants to stay and extend with NJ though. But I'd be very happy to see Garland moved for him thats the kind of deal I'd love to see. 

 

My preference would be to clear cap by moving out Pearson, Dickie and Poolman, and looking for trades with Boeser and Garland before I'd move off Miller. 

 

 

I still think Miller is the trade we just have to make, along with those guys. Miller just is too risky to me. This is the best year of his career and I'd honestly be willing to bet he'll never reach these heights again. Trade him with his value at his peak and fill needs. It's the way to go.

 

If we can't get Severson I hope we can still try for Marino. IMO he's the ideal partner for OEL. A juiced up Poolman.

[Baggins]

2 hours ago, Coconuts said:

Fickle sure? But mediocrity with no clear destination will lose you butts in seats the same way losing will. But taking a couple steps back to take several steps forward and communicating with the fanbase while trying to bring in high end young talent? I think folks could stomach that. I sure could. 

Would they buck up for games though? I thought Benning was pretty clear. But any plan is fluid simply because you never know when somebody may become available. 

[Ballisticsports.]

On 4/4/2022 at 7:58 AM, NUCKER67 said:

I think initially, JR underestimated the work to be done in Vancouver. He said about two years for the Canucks to be a playoff team (contender) again?  He had no idea.

 

JR might also underestimate the impatience of this fan base and how passionate Canadian hockey fans are for their team. He was in upper management in PIT and CAR, where hockey isn't the #1 sport. Far from it in Raleigh.

 

I'm not sure they even know who to build the team around yet.

 

Miller?

Horvat?

Petey?

 

Will JR and Allvin be aggressive in trading this summer? I hope so, because this team as it is, isn't very good. Boudreau had them playing at their highest level, and that still isn't good enough.  

 

IMO, pen a letter to the fans telling them the plan, then tear it down and rebuild around Petey, Podkolzin, Hughes and Demko. 

I think they have a good idea who they want by now and are working on alternative plans this summer right now (now is not the time of trading)

I hadn't thought about them trading EP recently (until you mentioned this)

They have no allegiance to him, The new managements Allegiance is to improving the team, not to any player

Maybe they want a different style of player?

Maybe what EP side said in contract negotiations with past management has a bearing in their decision? (Info that wasn't released public)

I use to think that Demko , Hughes and EP would remain for sure, but depending on if they got what they wanted, maybe they do consider moving him?

I still think because you build from goalie out and Demko and Hughes are under longer term contracts and are stars on the team, that those 2 you won't see moved

[Coconuts]

3 hours ago, Baggins said:

Would they buck up for games though? I thought Benning was pretty clear. But any plan is fluid simply because you never know when somebody may become available. 

Hard to say, but will the profit margin be that much higher if we're simply mediocre? 

[Baggins]

1 hour ago, Coconuts said:

Hard to say, but will the profit margin be that much higher if we're simply mediocre? 

Well, this mediocre year we're in the top 10 for attendance. Perhaps some of us see the difference between a team given a chance to win games and a team set up to lose games.

[Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw]

7 minutes ago, Baggins said:

Well, this mediocre year we're in the top 10 for attendance. Perhaps some of us see the difference between a team given a chance to win games and a team set up to lose games.

We are not 10th in raw capacity or percentage?  ESPN says we are smack in the middle.  This is also a pandemic year in which hockey-starved fans would've still filled seats to watch Green and Benning bury us into the ground.  But instead we got a personnel change that excited the team and made them fun to watch - they were the talk of the town again.  People were interested to see what was going on in Rogers Arena.  This overall excitement for change will sink or swim based on the moves this summer.

 

 

@hammertime You suggested a wings/avs style rebuild.  One team has done well AND been lucky while the other team has struggled.  I think Colorado benefited from some extreme draft luck, and it took some excellent management to salvage that rebuild.  Landeskog represents the start of the rebuild (2011) while Makar represents the end (2017).  From there, it still took a couple more years to elevate to contender status.  They gave up Duchene and Barrie, and they now have Kadri, Byram, and (indirectly) Grubauer.

 

  I expect the Canucks to trade Miller this summer and get an insane return.  But do the Canucks have the bravery to trade guys like Pettersson or Demko five years from now?  Do the fans and ownership have the patience to suck for years and trade everything away for picks?  Hard to say.  But we don't want to end up lost and directionless like Detroit.  They are in serious trouble.

[tas]

8 hours ago, EddieVedder said:

Id rather have Domi at 6 than Boeser anyday.

 

yikes, brutal take. domi sucks and is.mush between the ears. 

[shiznak]

Hate to break it to everyone, but we’re probably stuck in a perpetual state of mediocrity unless we unload some of these unwanted contracts off our books.
 

The problem with this is, that no teams are willing to take on these contracts unless we attach some sort of incentive to the player and we simply can afford to do that with are shallow prospect pool/limited cap that the previous regime left us. 
 

This is why, so many of us were adamant of trading Miller at the deadline, while he’s having a career. You trade him for depth in the lineup, plus possible picks/prospects and do a mini re-tool, while getting younger in the process.
 

We’re not contending in the next two years. So, it’s best to trade him, when his value was at an all time high, before he eventually leaves. Re-signing Miller would be just another lateral move, from a team standpoint, before he starts to eventually decline and we’re stuck with another huge contract on our books.

Edited April 6, 2022 by shiznak

[hammertime]

2 hours ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

We are not 10th in raw capacity or percentage?  ESPN says we are smack in the middle.  This is also a pandemic year in which hockey-starved fans would've still filled seats to watch Green and Benning bury us into the ground.  But instead we got a personnel change that excited the team and made them fun to watch - they were the talk of the town again.  People were interested to see what was going on in Rogers Arena.  This overall excitement for change will sink or swim based on the moves this summer.

 

 

@hammertime You suggested a wings/avs style rebuild.  One team has done well AND been lucky while the other team has struggled.  I think Colorado benefited from some extreme draft luck, and it took some excellent management to salvage that rebuild.  Landeskog represents the start of the rebuild (2011) while Makar represents the end (2017).  From there, it still took a couple more years to elevate to contender status.  They gave up Duchene and Barrie, and they now have Kadri, Byram, and (indirectly) Grubauer.

 

  I expect the Canucks to trade Miller this summer and get an insane return.  But do the Canucks have the bravery to trade guys like Pettersson or Demko five years from now?  Do the fans and ownership have the patience to suck for years and trade everything away for picks?  Hard to say.  But we don't want to end up lost and directionless like Detroit.  They are in serious trouble.

Lost and directionless like Detroit?

 

give it 2 years. They have

#1 Goalie Cossa and top D pairing Edvinsson Seider up front  Raymond Zadina and their hard mins 3c Veleno they are building correctly they just aren't there yet. They are putting the right pieces in place though to be able to do a tweak here and there to get them to contender status long before the canucks will. 

[hammertime]

1 hour ago, tas said:

yikes, brutal take. domi sucks and is.mush between the ears. 

All things being equal If I had to pick 1.... I'd also prefer Domi. Neither are worth 6m. Buuuuuut at least we could probably sign Domi under 5m. 

[IBatch]

12 hours ago, hammertime said:

The reality I struggle with is there's no second wave to propel us to contender status. The nucks might make the playoffs even put up a struggle in the first/second rounds but the reality is....... They aren't really good enough to reach that next level without a push from the farm. Any success we have won't be sustainable. 

 

I'm down for the deep dive. I'll still watch I think once you trade Miller it really forces you to tear it down Bo deserves to play on a contender I would love him to stay but I would understand 100% if he wanted to play the market as a UFA. Brocks gotta go for whatever I wont be mad if a 3rd is the best offer what we can't do is re sign him. 

 

Garland we keep as a culture carrier. We need the kids to have a guy like him around who gives 110%. OEL too he's very smart and plays the game the right way. He's a great #2/3 guy with intangibles.

 

I think we gun for as many 2023 picks as we can get and try to go all in for Bedard/Michkov. 

 

I also think Pete is at his best when he's "the guy" I think it's time to throw him in the deep end and see if he swims. Give him the chance to earn that big boy contract.  Paying for potential is over rated. I think he swims and earns the payday. 

 

Follow the avs/det blue print. 

 

 

Funny predicament we are in isn't it?   I also think that unless EP pulls a Mckinnon next season (doubt it), we are pretty f!cked going with the same lineup.   

 

Team has loads of options at least.   What would trading Horvat and Miller gain us?   A treasure trove in futures.   What worries me the most, is we will go with small measures.   I'd be perfectly fine as a fan, if the team did what NYR did and sent out a letter, it would be a different letter because that team was old stale and done - and ours is just not baked enough.    "our team has done some good things.   But there is still work to do yet to get us into a perrenial playoff team and eventually a contender.  For that reason we are planning to take the long view .... blah blah blah " and just tear the bandaid off.    

 

It's either that or some seriously ingenuous trades.   A second for "Lumme".   A Butcher (Miller) like trade that gives us a Ronning, Courtnall and Momesso.     Either way we also have to hit on some picks as well.    

 

EP absolutely isn't ready for the main job.   But he should be by the time he's 25-26.    So am fine with doubling down with both Horvat and Miller as long as we make well - some pretty awesome trades elsewhere.   

[-DLC-]

9 hours ago, luongianone said:

I still think Miller is the trade we just have to make, along with those guys. Miller just is too risky to me. This is the best year of his career and I'd honestly be willing to bet he'll never reach these heights again. Trade him with his value at his peak and fill needs. It's the way to go.

 

If we can't get Severson I hope we can still try for Marino. IMO he's the ideal partner for OEL. A juiced up Poolman.

Trading Miller is also risky...it's not a one sided coin. "This is the best year of his career" isn't determined yet, as we can't predict a total drop off in his level of play. Plus, we need guys like that on the team...ones who get fired up and hate to lose.

 

I think people feel we can demand a king's ransom for him but if other teams aren't biting then we aren't reaching "these heights" and shouldn't settle. I think the management team sees that...that he's as valuable to us as he is to others and we determine that worth. Getting shortchanged in the process would be a huge mistake.

 

 

[JM_]

12 hours ago, Coconuts said:

Maybe, but I've never claimed trades are easy to make. The value of players, what players are willing to pay, and what teams want/think they need is always shifting. That being said, trades happen. 

 

It doesn't have to be contenders, it could be teams looking to take the next step too. Or teams who simply want an upgrade or a different look. 

thats all true, but what kind of return would you expect from teams in those situations? would it really be worth it?

 

12 hours ago, Coconuts said:

But taking a couple steps back to take several steps forward and communicating with the fanbase while trying to bring in high end young talent? I think folks could stomach that. I sure could. 

I think people would have an easier time digesting a proper tank, e.g., moving everyone over 23 years old. 

 

My concern with this two steps back idea  is I don't think it ends with just moving Miller, I don't see why Bo would hang around for this. In year he can have his pick of contending teams. 

 

So thats why I'm of the mind to either support the current group, or just tank, I don't see a middle solution.

Edited April 6, 2022 by JM_

[-DLC-]

Also, here's a pretty good article about the moves that they're NOT MAKING

 

https://canucksarmy.com/2022/04/06/moves-patrik-allvin-important-moves-making/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

[Coconuts]

1 minute ago, JM_ said:

thats all true, but what kind of return would you expect from teams in those situations? would it really be worth it?

 

I think people would have an easier time digesting a proper tank, e.g., moving everyone over 23 years old. 

 

My concern with this is I don't think it ends with just moving Miller, I don't see why Bo would hang around for this. In year he can have his pick of contending teams. 

 

So thats why I'm of the mind to either support the current group, or just tank, I don't see a middle solution.

Hard to say, it depends on what we get in return and I'm not gonna pretend I've got a functional crystal coconut. 

 

It wouldn't, if Miller goes I think one of Garland/Boeser/Myers would go too. Moving Miller wouldn't be enough imo.

 

As for Horvat, I think he's more likely to stay because of the roots he's got here. Unlike Miller he was drafted here, came up under the Sedin's, got married and has started a family here. He's the captain, he's likely got friends here. He won't agree with every move made regarding who comes and goes, but he does have friends here on the team. Does all the aforementioned mean he'll re-sign? Of course not, but I do believe there are more factors keeping a Horvat here than a Miller. Next season will be his ninth as a Canuck.

 

But yes, if it comes down to it and it doesn't look like he'll extend in the offseason or prior to next season's deadline I'd heavily consider trading Bo too. We're not a team that can allow top tier assets to walk for nothing, we don't have the organizational depth to take those kind of hits. 

[JM_]

10 hours ago, luongianone said:

I still think Miller is the trade we just have to make, along with those guys. Miller just is too risky to me. This is the best year of his career and I'd honestly be willing to bet he'll never reach these heights again. Trade him with his value at his peak and fill needs. It's the way to go.

could be, although since he's been in a top line role here he's produced at a ppg rate for 3 years. Sure two were weird covid years, but other guys also declined during that time. 

 

 

10 hours ago, luongianone said:

 

If we can't get Severson I hope we can still try for Marino. IMO he's the ideal partner for OEL. A juiced up Poolman.

would love to get either, thats for sure.