Drafting Defence

[dr.naughtypants]

7 hours ago, johngould21 said:

I can't remember the last d other than Hughes who has amounted to much.

 

Just off the top of my head, Ohlund, Tanev and Edler were beauties..

Edited June 16, 2022 by dr.naughtypants

[johngould21]

6 minutes ago, dr.naughtypants said:

Just off the top of my head, Ohlund, Tanev and Edler were beauties..

I mentioned Tanev, and I was talking about drafting 1st rounders. Ohlund and Edler weren't 1st rounders, and neither was Tanev, but like Bieksa and they did work out ok. Daily, Guevremont, and Lanz weren't.

[mordekai]

37 minutes ago, johngould21 said:

I mentioned Tanev, and I was talking about drafting 1st rounders. Ohlund and Edler weren't 1st rounders, and neither was Tanev, but like Bieksa and they did work out ok. Daily, Guevremont, and Lanz weren't.

Ohlund is definitely first rounder

[Gollumpus]

14 hours ago, -AJ- said:

The way I see it, it's just the principles of economics that suggest picking the BPA. If a guy has value of 150, then why not always pick him over a guy with a value of 147? Even if you need the 147 more, draft the 150, then trade him for the 147 + 3.

 

Obviously my example is a bit simplistic, but that's the theory anyway.

 

I'm not opposed to drafting BPA, if your choices are a guy who is supposed to be a generational talent forward, and a merely very, very, very good d-man, then yeah, it makes sense to go BPA, and hope that your guy isn't a Yakupov, and the other guy doesn't develop into a Hedman.

 

If we're talking negligible differences in player values vs organizational need, then the choice becomes unclear for me. If a team is drafting in the middle of the pack, and has a number of good wingers, and the BPA (by a small margin) is a winger, and the second ranked BPA is a RD (a positional need), then why not take the d-man? The advantage you'd be able to acquire (if any) would likely be so small that the bother just wouldn't matter. While this is all speculative, I suspect that the return for such a "150" player would be so minimal that you may as well have drafted the "147" in the first place. What kind of asset would be talking about, so that we have a value for "3" (or whatever the difference would be between these two players? 

 

And off the top of your head, are there any examples that come to mind where a team drafted one prospect, and then traded him to another team in order to fill a positional need which they could have filled only a year or two earlier? Is there a particular trade which we could use as an example, for discussion purposes? I don't believe the Dubois/Laine trade serves the purpose of being an example, as both of the main guys involved in the trade were disgruntled and wanted out of their original team. *The Jets traded the 2016 2nd OA and a 2015 25th OA, for the 2016 3rd OA, who they could have drafted in the first place. *

 

There's also the possibility that you can't re-coup the value of your "150" in such a trade and have to take on a guy who is lesser in value than the RD you might have picked. (Yes, you could also luck out and get far more value. I suspect that the lesser return would be the more likely result.)

 

Late. Sleepy. Apologies for any incomplete thoughts.

 

TL;DR - drafting is situational, and should be governed by more than just BPA. 

 

                                                  regards,  G.

 

 

[73 Percent]

9 hours ago, -AJ- said:

See my earlier post. If you can't trade a guy on the market, then he his value is lower. What I mean by BPA is most valuable player on the market. Often that's the best player, but position comes into play as well. As long as position isn't over-accounted for, it's fine.

Yeah I think your definition of BPA is different compared to most others. 

[johngould21]

8 hours ago, mordekai said:

Ohlund is definitely first rounder

I stand corrected. However, I stand by my point, drafting D in the first round is a huge gamble, until they are fully developed players.

[Canucklehead73]

Kind of a pipe dream to have NHL ready defense men playing in the minors for you, would be great to have depth players who step in and not miss a beat...

 

These types of players want to be in the NHL not the minors... All you can hope for is young prospects that will step up and gain experience without making too many mistakes while covering for an injury. Always going to have to settle for less that NHL caliber depth... for the most part anyways especially on defense imho

[ABNuck]

David Jiricek

6' 3" 190#

RHD

 

"Skating is the name of the game. He flows a fluid extension into a clean recovery to impart power and precision to his four-way ability" EPRinkside.com 2021

"He can walk the line and get a shot through traffic, or load up an absolute bomb of a one-timer" EPRinkside.com 2021

"extremely active defenseman.. doesn’t hesitate when he can activate from the offensive blue line to become a threat from the high slot" Draftin Europe 2020

"He’s the textbook definition of a two-way defenseman and really doesn’t have too many holes in his game. Offensively, he’s extremely skilled when it comes to patrolling the blue line, be it at even strength or on the power play. He’s one of the most explosive skaters among defensemen, and while his acceleration needs some work, he’s a hard player to slow down when you factor in his size. His edgework is very good and he also possesses what I believe might be one of the best shots among defensemen in the 2022 draft class. Whether it’s a booming one-timer or a deceptive wrist shot, Jiricek’s point shots typically end up in the back of the net before you can blink. Defensively, he has elite gap control when it comes to boxing out incoming opponents. He’s incredibly hard to shake off when he’s chasing the puck carrier, and he uses his frame at 6-foot-3 and 190 pounds to his advantage. While he’s not a Scott Stevens clone on the back end, he’s certainly not known to shy away from laying a big hit every now and then. Watching him play, I see similarities between Jiricek and Detroit Red Wings star rookie Moritz Seider. Both are right-handed defensemen at roughly the same height and weight, and both can impact the game in just about any aspect." - Hockey Writers

 

 

“Mobile defender with good size and a bomb of a shot from the point. Plays a physical brand of hockey and has the potential to contribute in a variety of ways as an NHL defenseman.” -Nick Richard, Dobber Prospects

 

“Jiříček has good puck tracking ability. He does an excellent job scanning the ice and moving his body around the offensive zone at the same pace as his opponents’ puck movement. The Czech defender reacts quickly to puck movement, if he spots a loose puck coming up the boards towards him, he shifts his hips and knees in a pivot to trap possession of the puck.” -Josh Tessler, Smaht Scouting

 

“Jiricek is an exceptional two-way defender that shows a strong transition ability. He reads the play so well, playing like a veteran defender well above his age. He regularly shows very impressive reads, noting where players are and correctly attacking or hanging back as needed.” -Josh Bell, FC Hockey

 

We need to trade up to 5 (PHI) to get this guy...wouldn't Moritz Seider look real good lined up with Quinn? Well, this is the same type guy...we NEED this type of RHD so that our future for the next decade is secure on the backend.

[Hogs & Podz]

1 hour ago, ABNuck said:

David Jiricek

6' 3" 190#

RHD

 

"Skating is the name of the game. He flows a fluid extension into a clean recovery to impart power and precision to his four-way ability" EPRinkside.com 2021

"He can walk the line and get a shot through traffic, or load up an absolute bomb of a one-timer" EPRinkside.com 2021

"extremely active defenseman.. doesn’t hesitate when he can activate from the offensive blue line to become a threat from the high slot" Draftin Europe 2020

"He’s the textbook definition of a two-way defenseman and really doesn’t have too many holes in his game. Offensively, he’s extremely skilled when it comes to patrolling the blue line, be it at even strength or on the power play. He’s one of the most explosive skaters among defensemen, and while his acceleration needs some work, he’s a hard player to slow down when you factor in his size. His edgework is very good and he also possesses what I believe might be one of the best shots among defensemen in the 2022 draft class. Whether it’s a booming one-timer or a deceptive wrist shot, Jiricek’s point shots typically end up in the back of the net before you can blink. Defensively, he has elite gap control when it comes to boxing out incoming opponents. He’s incredibly hard to shake off when he’s chasing the puck carrier, and he uses his frame at 6-foot-3 and 190 pounds to his advantage. While he’s not a Scott Stevens clone on the back end, he’s certainly not known to shy away from laying a big hit every now and then. Watching him play, I see similarities between Jiricek and Detroit Red Wings star rookie Moritz Seider. Both are right-handed defensemen at roughly the same height and weight, and both can impact the game in just about any aspect." - Hockey Writers

 

 

“Mobile defender with good size and a bomb of a shot from the point. Plays a physical brand of hockey and has the potential to contribute in a variety of ways as an NHL defenseman.” -Nick Richard, Dobber Prospects

 

“Jiříček has good puck tracking ability. He does an excellent job scanning the ice and moving his body around the offensive zone at the same pace as his opponents’ puck movement. The Czech defender reacts quickly to puck movement, if he spots a loose puck coming up the boards towards him, he shifts his hips and knees in a pivot to trap possession of the puck.” -Josh Tessler, Smaht Scouting

 

“Jiricek is an exceptional two-way defender that shows a strong transition ability. He reads the play so well, playing like a veteran defender well above his age. He regularly shows very impressive reads, noting where players are and correctly attacking or hanging back as needed.” -Josh Bell, FC Hockey

 

We need to trade up to 5 (PHI) to get this guy...wouldn't Moritz Seider look real good lined up with Quinn? Well, this is the same type guy...we NEED this type of RHD so that our future for the next decade is secure on the backend.

I agree... But do you think he'd be available at 5?  In a redraft, Seider would go top 3 now.  I'd could see the same with Jiricek.  

Edited June 30, 2022 by Hogs & Podz

[Schmautzie]

18 minutes ago, Hogs & Podz said:

I agree... But do you think he'd be available at 5?  In a redraft, Seider would go top 3 now.  I'd could see the same with Jiricek.  

I guess the way to do it would be to have any prospective trade with Philadelphia be contingent on Jiricek still being on the board at five. Obviously Miller would have to be the centrepiece of that trade going the other way. Hopefully it wouldn’t also include the Canuck’s number 15 pick as we need all the prospects we can get. Jiricek and Pickering would be a great haul from this draft.

[Sedinyoureyesontheprize]

I may be the only person who thinks this, but I do believe it would be wise to simply double down on drafting all defensemen with our draft picks.  Biggest weakness by far for this organization. Package a few picks to move up to get impact player if opportunity is there. Just focus on getting as many of the top projected d men as possible in order to upgrade the abysmal pool of defence prospects. 

Edited June 30, 2022 by Sedinyoureyesontheprize

[canuck73_3]

On 6/15/2022 at 9:50 PM, johngould21 said:

I mentioned Tanev, and I was talking about drafting 1st rounders. Ohlund and Edler weren't 1st rounders, and neither was Tanev, but like Bieksa and they did work out ok. Daily, Guevremont, and Lanz weren't.

Luc Bourdon rip kid was a stud 

[mikeyman109]

5 hours ago, Sedinyoureyesontheprize said:

I may be the only person who thinks this, but I do believe it would be wise to simply double down on drafting all defensemen with our draft picks.  Biggest weakness by far for this organization. Package a few picks to move up to get impact player if opportunity is there. Just focus on getting as many of the top projected d men as possible in order to upgrade the abysmal pool of defence prospects. 

Be careful that kind of logic will get you roasted here. with our top 6 basically overflowing and we have added to it with Kuz, I cant say this is crazy talk. Draft every D man you can this summer. Every round. The Best D available. in 7 rounds there has to be one that would make the team at least marginally better. Draft all RHD. and again No more smurfs.

[Boudrias]

On 6/16/2022 at 7:03 AM, johngould21 said:

I stand corrected. However, I stand by my point, drafting D in the first round is a huge gamble, until they are fully developed players.

Our highest D-man draft pick ever was Dale Tallon at #2 OA. His development in Vancouver set the tone for future picks as the org was brutal on development. IMHO Tallon was rushed in and not supported as well as he should have been. 137 points in 222 games for Vancouver and shipped out after 3 years. From the get go it was more important to the org to make playoffs rather than build a true contender. The org direction was greatly influenced by a fan base who demanded immediate results. 

[johngould21]

1 hour ago, Boudrias said:

Our highest D-man draft pick ever was Dale Tallon at #2 OA. His development in Vancouver set the tone for future picks as the org was brutal on development. IMHO Tallon was rushed in and not supported as well as he should have been. 137 points in 222 games for Vancouver and shipped out after 3 years. From the get go it was more important to the org to make playoffs rather than build a true contender. The org direction was greatly influenced by a fan base who demanded immediate results. 

The same could be said for the entire early years of Vancouver hockey. The only Canuck drafted player who played a significant amount of time in Vancouver was Don Lever. But, because his wife didn't like it here, he too was traded. As I said, the Canucks hurried every drafted player into the roster, without playing a game in the minors, and other than Tallon, who should have as you said, played a few games in the minors. Fan influence still plays a part in this franchise, right Mr Aguillini? Do you remember them sharing minor league farm teams with other teams?  I remember Tulsa, Freddy beach.

[johngould21]

@Boudrias, further to the Dale Tallon development. The Canucks were so desperate for offense, he played forward for many shifts as well.

[Alflives]

We need to collect 2nd and 3rd picks and use them to draft D.  No more Benning trading away those picks.  Lots of very valuable NHL D come out of those rounds.  

[Putgolzin]

24 minutes ago, johngould21 said:

@Boudrias, further to the Dale Tallon development. The Canucks were so desperate for offense, he played forward for many shifts as well.

And then spent some time as a senior advisor

[Putgolzin]

On 6/16/2022 at 7:26 AM, 73 Percent said:

Yeah I think your definition of BPA is different compared to most others. 

I think he's on to something there though. Obviously, it's not an argument to over-reach on the hope of a RHD.

But if there's a good RHD available and projected to go 16 whereas there are LW's projected in the 14 and 15 spots...maybe the position does count for a higher value.

 

[73 Percent]

15 minutes ago, Putgolzin said:

I think he's on to something there though. Obviously, it's not an argument to over-reach on the hope of a RHD.

But if there's a good RHD available and projected to go 16 whereas there are LW's projected in the 14 and 15 spots...maybe the position does count for a higher value.

 

I'm not arguing the logic at all. I'm all for Ryan Chelsey. I'm was just trying to clear up some confusion.