[Report] Canucks announce Hockey Operations enhancements

[lmm]

2 hours ago, secksii said:

OEL is a good dman, he would be 1d in most NHL teams. He's aging yes, but dmen tend to play well a lot older than forwards. OEL contract will be up when he is 35/36. Many expect Miller's next term contract to be good for 3-4yrs and then fall off the last half. It's easier said than done to find a guy that can play top 4 minutes & produce 30pts for a lot less. Schmidt was the last one, and he's not much cheaper at 6m. Tbh i would much prefer OEL over him for additional ~1m in cap. OEL is a much more complete player than Scmidt and other top 4 dmen around the league, i mean that's why he was paid handsomely in the first place, because he was a franchise 1d player. It's just inefficient for our team because we drafted Hughes and he's our 1d guy and the Canucks need to find a way to play them both evenly.

OEL surprised everyone by playing matchup minutes that he isn't known for, and delivered. Not only that, but he allowed Hughes to be deployed freely to do his thing rather than wasting Hughes stamina to play matchup minutes as well on top of things he already does, where he struggled immensely the year before when he didn't have Edler or OEL to shelter those minutes. Not to mention, OEL also puts Myers to better use by having him & play matchup minutes to get better value for his 6m caphit contract, rather than having him on the 3rd pair on babysitting duties previously. I agree that for 7m it's expensive for OEL to just play matchups, and he needs to go back to producing 40-50pts a year, but we can't really complain when he's doing a great job on something he was not really known for and not complaining about it. When Hughes got hurt, OEL flawlessly took over and produced 2-3pts a night with the minutes/deployments that Hughes would normally get and OEL looked very comfortable and even had fans wanting him back on PP1 when the Canucks struggled for a stretch and at least til Hughes was back to being 100%. OEL is known to drive the PP extremely well most of his career, yet he didn't get much time on there because Hughes gets most of the minutes there. So we can't expect OEL to produce 40-50pts 5v5 while doing matchup roles. That's why Alvin is trying to find more players to help allow Bruce to run both Hughes and OEL equally to do their own thing they're both good at, rather than have OEL be stuck on matchup duties due to lack of talented RHD players to play with their style. 

You also forget that Garland was another huge piece coming back from the trade, i view the trade 1st for Garland and 2nd &OEL for 3 capdumps. Drance said it best, the Canucks won the hockey trade, but also lose because of cap. The trade would look far better if the Canucks didn't have another 1d like Hughes.

 

BOLD 1 do you really think there are 16 teams that would trade their number one guy for OEL?

I'd like to see your list.

BOLD 2 OEL was a punching bag out there this year, Every big forward in the league seems to want to run him hard.

I see injuries in his future

BOLD 3 people said that the Sedin's style of play would age well

It didn't

 

I expected OEL to play well this year and he did, I still don't think the contract will age well

[RomanP]

1 hour ago, SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME said:

Canucks should just hire @RomanP

That would be a very expensive translator lol

[secksii]

52 minutes ago, lmm said:

BOLD 1 do you really think there are 16 teams that would trade their number one guy for OEL?

I'd like to see your list.

BOLD 2 OEL was a punching bag out there this year, Every big forward in the league seems to want to run him hard.

I see injuries in his future

BOLD 3 people said that the Sedin's style of play would age well

It didn't

 

I expected OEL to play well this year and he did, I still don't think the contract will age well

Teams that already have 1d won't need OEL, as they'll be in the same situation as the Canucks are in currently. However, teams without a good 1d can definitely use him. If the Canucks didn't have 1d in Hughes, we wouldn't be talking much about oel because he would've performed his usual self and got the minutes he is used to playing. 

 

Entire canucks was a punching bag out there, I love how you're trying to single out oel for this. Why do you think Jr feels the team needs more sandpaper guys that are tougher to play against? Aside from Schenn, burroughs, Miller and maybe Myers, the rest of the team aren't exactly that. I really don't understand your argument for this, it's the wildest take I've heard. If anything, the way other teams ran through Hughes, Petey, hogs, horvat, garland etc. And they barely had any answer for em, I see injuries in the future. See how whack that sounds? 

 

Sedins were forwards, not dmen. They played til they were 37... And retired on a high note,  being 50+ pt players... Instead of playing til their bodies gave up and became 10pt players and a reliability to the team. Not sure what you're trying to argue about this point tbh. As their style allowed them to play as long as they did. Look around the league and there's far more forwards that are declining faster than dmen on average when they hit their mid 30s. 

 

OELs contract will not age well as long as he's used the same way currently. Even when he played great this year, he isn't used effectively/efficiently for the caphit just being on matchup duties. That's why alvin and JR are trying to find top 4 dmen to play with both Hughes and OEL to balance their deployments to get most out of their contracts. Can you imagine if we had Toews and cernak type of guys playing with those 2? 

 

 

 

 

[RomanP]

32 minutes ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

Maybe double-duty as translator/bodyguard then?  

Me? Bodyguard? Lol.

[aGENT]

13 minutes ago, Muttley said:

Yup. Myers speed and tenacity is falling away. Not surprising. He has been willing to be a policeman when necessary and not afraid to throw the big hits, even fight.

We should try and find, or mold, a younger version of the same ilk without it costing an arm and a leg. Wont be easy..

Myers is a two way D. I want some defensive D (think Tanev, McNabb, Manson, Marino, Lyubushkin etc). I don't want someone in the same mold.

[aGENT]

8 hours ago, Muttley said:

I looked into every player you listed and they all have a rather abrasive side to their game, plenty of penalty minutes, with the exception of Tanev who takes off with the puck all the time now. You want a stay at home defense man that doesn't wander like Myers sometimes does. I get it. Can't help thinking this will be getting harder to find as it seems most defense men have the green light, even encouraged, to rush when the opportunity arises. Luke Schenn did an admirable for us last year. Need a younger version of him. 

Lyubushkin is something like a younger version of him. Marino similar to a younger Tanev.

[AV.]

23 hours ago, Canuckster86 said:

razzle dazzle yo, tomato tomatoe...Fact is no GM is perfect, Benning &^@#ed our cap by overpaying to get an aging OEL here long term and gave up a top 10 pick, we were 1 year away from 12m in cap space freed up. Arizona GM had next to 0 leverage, OEL would waive for 2 teams only...yet we still coughed up a top 10 pick and a 2nd in this years draft.

 

I would rather pay JT Miller going forward than OEL. You could find a guy to play top 4 minutes and produce 30pts for a hell of a lot less than 7m+ and retain his NMC to boot!

Indeed.  It takes a very particular GM to somehow overpay for a guy that only wanted to go to two teams.  As it was the theme throughout the tenue here, both eyes to the present with no regard for the past or future, despite any sort of pathetic rationalization that even the most ardent supporters could come up with to defend the moves made.  This trade was well and truly a final act of hockey terrorism from the old regime that has, and will continue, to plague this team for many seasons.

[-Vintage Canuck-]

 

[Ilya Mikheyev]

wow - great.

 

Scott Young was still working for Pittsburgh and is well respected around the league for good reason, the fact that he was 'lured' to Vancouver is promising! It's always nice when your favourite franchise is able to recruit people who aren't even looking for work.

 

Adding Tallon is a nice story - first draft pick by the Canucks, management cup pedigree, lots of exp. and connections even if he's not a desirable GM anymore. Great addition as a consultant and scout.

[lmm]

16 hours ago, secksii said:

Teams that already have 1d won't need OEL, as they'll be in the same situation as the Canucks are in currently. However, teams without a good 1d can definitely use him. If the Canucks didn't have 1d in Hughes, we wouldn't be talking much about oel because he would've performed his usual self and got the minutes he is used to playing. 

 

Entire canucks was a punching bag out there, I love how you're trying to single out oel for this. Why do you think Jr feels the team needs more sandpaper guys that are tougher to play against? Aside from Schenn, burroughs, Miller and maybe Myers, the rest of the team aren't exactly that. I really don't understand your argument for this, it's the wildest take I've heard. If anything, the way other teams ran through Hughes, Petey, hogs, horvat, garland etc. And they barely had any answer for em, I see injuries in the future. See how whack that sounds? 

 

Sedins were forwards, not dmen. They played til they were 37... And retired on a high note,  being 50+ pt players... Instead of playing til their bodies gave up and became 10pt players and a reliability to the team. Not sure what you're trying to argue about this point tbh. As their style allowed them to play as long as they did. Look around the league and there's far more forwards that are declining faster than dmen on average when they hit their mid 30s. 

 

OELs contract will not age well as long as he's used the same way currently. Even when he played great this year, he isn't used effectively/efficiently for the caphit just being on matchup duties. That's why alvin and JR are trying to find top 4 dmen to play with both Hughes and OEL to balance their deployments to get most out of their contracts. Can you imagine if we had Toews and cernak type of guys playing with those 2? 

 

 

 

 

First let me say that I don't hate OEL

I think he is a good player

Overpaid, too much term, and I did not like the trade, but as a person and a player I think he is OK.

 

Also, I do not believe that there are 32 top line centers, or 32 number 1 goalies or 32 number 1 D-men

At any given time about 1/3 of the league fills these spots with the best they have available, which is a number 2 playing up.

Ironically, one such goalie likely wins the cup this year.

 

One Canuck example would be the 5 year period when Alex Edler was our number 1 D-man

Another would be when Brendan Morrison played top line C

Or when Eddie Lack or any of the "Goalie Graveyard" gang were our starter.

With that said, I think you are over valuing both OEL (in general) and Quinn Hughes (presently). Hughes may well get there if he keeps progressing, but he is not there yet.

 

I do not agree that the whole Canuck team are punching bags, sure many lack push back, 

I don't think anyone will agree with you that Horvat, Boeser or Pearson are punching bags, they may lack aggression however.

Highmore on the other hand...

I believe there is a book on OEL, that because he can be a game changer, is better played hard.

You'll never hear any player admit it, but I'd bet (and this is just my opinion) that around the water cooler or maybe the skate sharpener, that is what players think.

In a way it is a testament to his ability, because if he was not good/(with the ability to be) great nobody would bother

I don't think there is a stat on number of absorbed hard hits, but if there was, I think OEL would be near the top.

Maybe in his younger days, he could avoid those hits

 

You can say D-men last longer, but Subban, Karlsson, Burns, Vlasic, Yandle are all between 32-35 YO and not helping their teams win

Some d-men and players in general play well into their 30s, most reinvent their game 

 

And the Sedins were a liability

at 37 Pavelski scored 81 points, at 39 Joe Thornton scored 51 points and was 8th in team scoring 

51 points and leading a bad team in scoring is not going out on a high note

 

Finally I agree, Toews and Cernack would look good on the Canucks, or any  NHL team

[hammertime]

I wanna see some action. A whole lot of shuffling deck chairs going on. Do something MGMT. If the draft passes and we havnt made a serious move I may have some strong feelings towards JR Alvin.

[canuck73_3]

7 hours ago, hammertime said:

I wanna see some action. A whole lot of shuffling deck chairs going on. Do something MGMT. If the draft passes and we havnt made a serious move I may have some strong feelings towards JR Alvin.

Name a time a major trade happened while the playoffs were still going on, I’ll wait. 

[Dazzle]

On 6/24/2022 at 6:40 PM, ShawnAntoski said:

Very different approach by JR & Allvin: in building up the off ice roster, rather than constantly chasing players at the expense of future finite assets: premium picks.  Really interested how the draft will turn out and what all these hiring means to homegrown development.  Not sure, how Johnston can be promoted based on what the farm has produced ?  Anyways, let's see how it all turns out.

Let's be honest. He's signed a couple of free agents, but we have no idea how they'll turn out. For all we know (and I'm hoping this isn't the case), they could be just footnotes in a mediocre season. Benning's tried to sign the "proven" players, albeit at premium prices, but those have rarely worked out.

 

Most Benning criticizers have talked about the lack of AHL development. Although the AHL development has not been radically better than other years, Johnston is still here, even after all the evaluations by JR/Allvin. Maybe the people criticizing everything don't actually have all the information, in which case, what we are seeing is that people are chasing for evidence in order to put a guilty verdict with Benning. That's confirmation bias in a nutshell.

[Dazzle]

14 hours ago, hammertime said:

I wanna see some action. A whole lot of shuffling deck chairs going on. Do something MGMT. If the draft passes and we havnt made a serious move I may have some strong feelings towards JR Alvin.

This is exactly it. People are praising JR/Allvin like they've done something revolutionary. Not really. They've been given carte blanche to modify the team. That's all. And so far, we've only signed two free agents, both of which are not NHL proven. We have some new staff, but that's about it. The roster has remained the same. It's illogical to praise the new management which has done little to modify the NHL roster itself.

 

Seems like people were just simply headhunting.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Dazzle

[Timråfan]

3 hours ago, Dazzle said:

Let's be honest. He's signed a couple of free agents, but we have no idea how they'll turn out. For all we know (and I'm hoping this isn't the case), they could be just footnotes in a mediocre season. Benning's tried to sign the "proven" players, albeit at premium prices, but those have rarely worked out.

 

Most Benning criticizers have talked about the lack of AHL development. Although the AHL development has not been radically better than other years, Johnston is still here, even after all the evaluations by JR/Allvin. Maybe the people criticizing everything don't actually have all the information, in which case, what we are seeing is that people are chasing for evidence in order to put a guilty verdict with Benning. That's confirmation bias in a nutshell.

We already hace a guilty verdict on Benning. We have moved on. 

Move on yourself.

 

If the new management make mistakes and players  talk about bad aspects as they did about Benning/Green you can start ranting.

But before that JR/Allvin has a lot of space. 

[ShawnAntoski]

8 hours ago, Dazzle said:

Let's be honest. He's signed a couple of free agents, but we have no idea how they'll turn out. For all we know (and I'm hoping this isn't the case), they could be just footnotes in a mediocre season. Benning's tried to sign the "proven" players, albeit at premium prices, but those have rarely worked out.

 

Most Benning criticizers have talked about the lack of AHL development. Although the AHL development has not been radically better than other years, Johnston is still here, even after all the evaluations by JR/Allvin. Maybe the people criticizing everything don't actually have all the information, in which case, what we are seeing is that people are chasing for evidence in order to put a guilty verdict with Benning. That's confirmation bias in a nutshell.

The last regime of: Aquaman, Benning, Weisbrod and Green can only be associated with one word - mediocre.  Imo, Aqauman takes all/most of the blame cause he was the architect of the last regime.  Hopefully, this past season has taught Aquaman some (IMPORTANT) lessons about his role as owner: THAT HE IS CLUELESS, ON WHAT IT TAKES TO WIN A STANLEY CUP; and the hiring of JR can perhaps be an admission on his part to take a step back and give someone that knows how to win in the NHL, a chance.

As for my point: the winning culture should start at the front office/off the ice cause constantly chasing players - guarantees nothing (Schmidt) and we had seen the LINGERING affects of such (expensive) endeavor when it doesn't work out: no cap and no prospect depth.  The current approach of beefing up the front office before making any major roster moves, is refreshing but such approach can also carry the risk: of having too many cooks.  Although, having a (large) front office seems to be a trait, in a JR front office and managing it is seemingly what, JR excels at (and this skillset is perhaps what Allvin, is being mentored on).  So far, it has been fun watching the contrast in asset & cap managements, by the new crew vs the last; but I am still cautiously optimistic cause JR might have the resume but Allvin doesn't.  When it comes to Abby & Johnston, I will be holding off making any comments, right now cause I want to see how drafting & development will be accomplished, under Allvin; and we don't know how much of the blame should go to the last regime.  Still baffled by the Johnston promotion but it seems like he has a good repoire among the heavy hitters in the organization - hence, he stays but sometimes such a promotion is given for other reason(s): to keep an eye on an individual, that is being closely evaluated.  Hoping for a successful offseason - fingers crossed.

Edited June 27, 2022 by ShawnAntoski

[Locke Lamora]

1 hour ago, Muttley said:

A bit of a promotion....

Starts at the 50 second mark  Ryan Johnson; Abbotsford Canucks General Manager but as of last weak, he is also promoted to assistant to the Canuck's General Manager, Patrick Alvin. Talks about the Avs winning the cup and how that group was put together over years. We will be evaluating every thing. He's exited about making the Vancouver Canucks better and one where they can get to where Colorado was last night. Excited about development camp, been a while. Talks about Jim Rutherford .............Much more.

 

 

I’ll say that Ryan Johnson can pretty much say nothing but still come across as much more engaging than Patrick “Energy Vampire” Allvin. Though I have to admit that our AGM has probably been getting some media training because he hasn’t been quite as sleep inducing as he was early on.

 

RJ is destined for big things in the upper management world methinks.

[secksii]

21 hours ago, lmm said:

First let me say that I don't hate OEL

I think he is a good player

Overpaid, too much term, and I did not like the trade, but as a person and a player I think he is OK.

 

Also, I do not believe that there are 32 top line centers, or 32 number 1 goalies or 32 number 1 D-men

At any given time about 1/3 of the league fills these spots with the best they have available, which is a number 2 playing up.

Ironically, one such goalie likely wins the cup this year.

 

One Canuck example would be the 5 year period when Alex Edler was our number 1 D-man

Another would be when Brendan Morrison played top line C

Or when Eddie Lack or any of the "Goalie Graveyard" gang were our starter.

With that said, I think you are over valuing both OEL (in general) and Quinn Hughes (presently). Hughes may well get there if he keeps progressing, but he is not there yet.

 

I do not agree that the whole Canuck team are punching bags, sure many lack push back, 

I don't think anyone will agree with you that Horvat, Boeser or Pearson are punching bags, they may lack aggression however.

Highmore on the other hand...

I believe there is a book on OEL, that because he can be a game changer, is better played hard.

You'll never hear any player admit it, but I'd bet (and this is just my opinion) that around the water cooler or maybe the skate sharpener, that is what players think.

In a way it is a testament to his ability, because if he was not good/(with the ability to be) great nobody would bother

I don't think there is a stat on number of absorbed hard hits, but if there was, I think OEL would be near the top.

Maybe in his younger days, he could avoid those hits

 

You can say D-men last longer, but Subban, Karlsson, Burns, Vlasic, Yandle are all between 32-35 YO and not helping their teams win

Some d-men and players in general play well into their 30s, most reinvent their game 

 

And the Sedins were a liability

at 37 Pavelski scored 81 points, at 39 Joe Thornton scored 51 points and was 8th in team scoring 

51 points and leading a bad team in scoring is not going out on a high note

 

Finally I agree, Toews and Cernack would look good on the Canucks, or any  NHL team

Exactly my point, if the Canucks didn't have Hughes and had edler type as 1d, no one would complain about OEL. Teams that still need 1d would benefit from OEL. It's not like he's declining because he doesn't have it anymore, he's just inefficiently used on this team since they have Hughes to take huge chunk of his minutes that he would otherwise have. 

 

Horvat, Pearson, boeser can hold their own, yes by no means are they intimidating to play against just like OEL. That's why I think it's funny you're singling him out when majority of the Canucks are that. Especially when oel played 79 games, far more than the 3 you cherry picked, despite being older and being a target for your narrative. 

 

I said dmen last longer on average, again you cherry picked players that fit your narrative that are on the minor side, rather than the greater average side. I can cherry pick and name far more successful dmen in the older age group, than the ones you listed but that's pointless. 

 

Just because burns is 37 now and "only" got 50+ pts instead of 80 doesn't mean he's bad? Sure he stopped getting his peaked prime numbers when he was 31 to 35, but really? 

 

You never watched the Canucks if you thought the sedins were a liability when they retired. Again, you're cherry picking the players. When there's a Pavelski, there's more ladds and Simmonds.

It's funny that you mention thorton. 

Sedins played on the 1st line and retired a Canuck on a bad team. They didn't jump teams to chase a cup before retiring. Had they took a slight discount and joined a team to stack, nobody would've avoided having them. Unless you truly believe that contending teams would've refused to sign them because they were straight up liabilities and couldn't play anymore. You're literally arguing that thorton got 51pts and was 8th on the team .. Behind couture and pavelski, on a contending team.... when the sedins were 1st/2nd on a bad team when they retired with 55 and 51pts. I don't even know what to say. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 27, 2022 by secksii

[SilentSam]

What are we top ended with now?

 

… about 0.52 mangers per player?

 

.. I guess everybody needs a scape goat .

[DeNiro]

11 minutes ago, SilentSam said:

What are we top ended with now?

 

… about 0.52 mangers per player?

 

.. I guess everybody needs a scape goat .

If that’s what it takes to avoid another Benning/Weisbrod debacle I say hire all the managers!