[Trade] Canucks trade Bo Horvat to Islanders for Anthony Beauvillier, Aatu Raty, 2023 1st-round draft pick

[stawns]

1 minute ago, DeNiro said:

Similar stats but Meier is a year younger and an RFA. Way less risk for the acquiring team.

I think Raty is great, I'm not happy about the top 12 protected but happy they got a first.  I'm appalled about the cap dump for an under sized winger and baffled by the salary retention heading into the tdl.

 

They could have done better

 

[CR7]

1 minute ago, stawns said:

If it's a rebuild, why take back cap on an expiring deal "and" retain on Horvat this year?  No one can tell me that they couldn't have done better than that 

 

I'd far, far rather just have Raty and the protected first and use the cap space at the tdl.

I can tell you they couldn't have done better, how? Because they didn't! 

[stawns]

1 minute ago, rekker said:

If this pick ends up a number 14, 15 pick this year, is that not one of the highest picks traded for a pure rental in recent memory?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How do you know he's a pure rental?  

[theo5789]

45 minutes ago, stawns said:

Waiting for the tdl arms race to start in the east.  I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the GM with the best piece on the market to wait and leverage teams against each other.  They don't play for a week.......why not wait that long, st least?

 

They may also have screwed Horvat out of his ASG appearance and, because of this week off, he's probably not going to get to say goodbye to his team, as a team.......that includes training staff etc.  Par for the course for this management group though.

 

We face NYI on Feb 10, plenty of time for him to say what he needs to say whatever he needs to say to the team by then.

 

I doubt there's any better offer by waiting a week. If another team wanted to jump in with a better offer, they had plenty of time to do so as we had been fielding calls for Horvat for a while now. Waiting goes both ways as yes there's a possibility we could squeak out a bit more, but there is also the very realistic possibility that team's stick firm to their offers or start adding other available players taking them out of the race which then benefits the remaining teams for leverage as we inch closer to the deadline of letting Bo walk for nothing.

 

We made the trade, which is a decent one given the circumstances. There was no indication and no facts that there was any better offer on the table. NYI is a desperate team right now. If we waited for them to fall further, this offer may not even be available in a month or they would've added someone else instead.

[stawns]

1 minute ago, theo5789 said:

We face NYI on Feb 10, plenty of time for him to say what he needs to say whatever he needs to say to the team by then.

 

I doubt there's any better offer by waiting a week. If another team wanted to jump in with a better offer, they had plenty of time to do so as we had been fielding calls for Horvat for a while now. Waiting goes both ways as yes there's a possibility we could squeak out a bit more, but there is also the very realistic possibility that team's stick firm to their offers or start adding other available players taking them out of the race which then benefits the remaining teams for leverage as we inch closer to the deadline of letting Bo walk for nothing.

 

We made the trade, which is a decent one given the circumstances. There was no indication and no facts that there was any better offer on the table. NYI is a desperate team right now. If we waited for them to fall further, this offer may not even be available in a month or they would've added someone else instead.

Why would offers get worse closer to the deadline?  Thats not generally how it works.......the closer you get to the tdl, the more desperate teams get.  The more desperate teams get, the more they give up.

[The Lock]

12 hours ago, Zerofaith said:

It’s just a username dummy, way to attach meaning to make yourself feel better

 

That's what usernames do whether you like it or not.

[tas]

46 minutes ago, JayDangles said:

The only thing I can think is there is a risk in allowing this for the Canucks.

.say the isles talk to his agent and it's made apparent Bo will ONLY sign an 8 year deal and want $9m. That would immediately turn the Isles off of him.

 

Yes negotiating a contract with a new team ahead can Garner a much bigger return, but it also runs the risk of scaring off potential trade partners also.

 

It really only works if they player is being traded to a destination they want to go to. Example Matthew Tkatchuk to Florida

the canucks only got a rental-level return. a team knowing they can't/won't re-sign him still wants him as a rental. 

[jyu]

5 minutes ago, stawns said:

It's going to prevent them from using cap space as a tool to get young players and/or picks at the tdl and draft, absolutely.  Horvat is on an expiring contract, taking back that much cap for another season and retaining 25% on Horvat this year is bad and does nothing to provide any of the cap flexibility everyone wants 

 

 

OK. So you are unhappy because we should have left 5.5 mil cap space from trading Horvat vacant, so that other teams could dump their "cap dumps" in exchange for a draft pick?

 

I see the logic but isn't that what just happened in this trade?

 

NYI is giving us a young near NHL ready player in Raty and a top 15 pick for taking on Beauviiler's cap dump for one more season and 3 months of Horvat. 

 

You thought that un-signed Horvat alone would have net us 3 pieces from a contender without taking a cap back? Name one contender who is not spending up to the cap. The GM of that team should be the GM of the year every year.

 

Besides, I don't agree with the view that Beauviilier is a cap dump. 

 

The days when Jannick Hansen's of the NHL made 2 million dollars is over. They make 3-4 million dollars now.

 

[stawns]

2 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

We face NYI on Feb 10, plenty of time for him to say what he needs to say whatever he needs to say to the team by then.

 

I doubt there's any better offer by waiting a week. If another team wanted to jump in with a better offer, they had plenty of time to do so as we had been fielding calls for Horvat for a while now. Waiting goes both ways as yes there's a possibility we could squeak out a bit more, but there is also the very realistic possibility that team's stick firm to their offers or start adding other available players taking them out of the race which then benefits the remaining teams for leverage as we inch closer to the deadline of letting Bo walk for nothing.

 

We made the trade, which is a decent one given the circumstances. There was no indication and no facts that there was any better offer on the table. NYI is a desperate team right now. If we waited for them to fall further, this offer may not even be available in a month or they would've added someone else instead.

Hes in Fla right now and will travel directly to long island.......he won't get to say goodbye to his team.  But, that's how this is group operates I guess

[Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw]

I know it makes no sense, but has anyone here considered the possibility of Horvat pulling an Olli Jokinen move and "re-signing" with Vancouver in the offseason right after getting traded away?

 

- A fan who's not ready to move on - 

[Salacious Crumb]

14 hours ago, -Vintage Canuck- said:

 

Lou is too much of an old school grinder to go for a pure rental. I suspect an extension has a handshake agreement and we will here about it this week. Lou is not stupid and won’t risk getting a tampering charge from Bettman.

[jyu]

1 minute ago, stawns said:

Why would offers get worse closer to the deadline?  Thats not generally how it works.......the closer you get to the tdl, the more desperate teams get.  The more desperate teams get, the more they give up.

That was 10-20 years ago. Most GMs (with job security) are taking a more patient approach.

 

Cam Neely came out and said there is only one cup winner every year so they'd rather not gut the team for one shot at the cup.

 

Almost all contenders operate like them now.

 

[The Lock]

1 minute ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

I know it makes no sense, but has anyone here considered the possibility of Horvat pulling an Olli Jokinen move and "re-signing" with Vancouver in the offseason right after getting traded away?

 

- A fan who's not ready to move on - 

I think Vancouver just won't have the money for that. It wouldn't even matter if Horvat wanted to or not.

[JayDangles]

14 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

I'm sure Bo Horvat, a relatively young two-way 60 goal scoring center could have scored us a top-4 defenceman from some team. Even if it was Edvinsson or Wallinder from Detroit. You can't tell me Bo wouldn't have scored us at the bare minimum a defenceman.

 

Allvin must have really wanted a 1st which other teams probably weren't giving up, or they probably weren't going to be as high as NYI's. I doubt Stevie Y would be stupid enough to part with a 1st in such a deep draft and that's probably the decider in the end.

 

Allvin has a brutal drafting history with the Pens too, I'll just leave that there...so what worth that 1st is we'll soon find out.

 

If this is the case and not even Bo can score us a defenceman via trade, then the only real way to acquire them is to overpay in UFA or draft them ourselves. Therein lies the other problem - we struggle to scout and draft defencemen apart from, well, Edler and Hughes.

I think the Horvat trade answers your first comment. Obviously Horvat couldn't bring in a top 4 D or else it would have happened.

Think about it.. if we were on the playoff bubble, would you trade Hughes for Patrick Kane? Hell no, not in a million years.

Expiring UFAs do not bring in top players on contracts.

 

In regards to scouting defence, this is always tricky. A large percentage of top 4 D were drafted after the 2nd round. This takes scouts with vision and a strong development program. Canucks have had bad luck drafting D men and worse luck keeping them healthy.

 

My biggest concern right now is Allvins hard on for European prospects. Time will tell.

 

All in all I am happy with the trade. There are also intangibles like shifting the team culture under Tocchet. Horvat will have resisted change and made things hard on other players.

 

This is a fresh start that is long overdue.

 

[stawns]

Just now, jyu said:

OK. So you are unhappy because we should have left 5.5 mil cap space from trading Horvat vacant, so that other teams could dump their "cap dumps" in exchange for a draft pick?

 

I see the logic but isn't that what just happened in this trade?

 

NYI is giving us a young near NHL ready player in Raty and a top 15 pick for taking on Beauviiler's cap dump for one more season and 3 months of Horvat. 

 

You thought that un-signed Horvat alone would have net us 3 pieces from a contender without taking a cap back? Name one contender who is not spending up to the cap. The GM of that team should be the GM of the year every year.

 

Besides, I don't agree with the view that Beauviilier is a cap dump. 

 

The days when Jannick Hansen's of the NHL made 2 million dollars is over. They make 3-4 million dollars now.

 

As the tdl gets closer, teams are going to want to clear cap space to load up for a cup run.  Teams with cap space can take on bad contracts that come with young prospects or high picks.  The same opportunity exists at the draft.

 

Isn't that what everyone has been  clamouring for on here?  The Canucks could have been that team, but blew that chance by taking on AB's $4m and retaining on Horvat this year.  

 

All we see on this board, non stop, is people screaming about cap mismanagement and now this group has made a huge fumble on the cap and suddenly everyone is all good with it?

 

If they have to take cap back, don't do it on an undersized winger who doesnt score.

 

 

[JayDangles]

6 minutes ago, tas said:

the canucks only got a rental-level return. a team knowing they can't/won't re-sign him still wants him as a rental. 

Exactly. 

[stawns]

1 minute ago, JayDangles said:

I think the Horvat trade answers your first comment. Obviously Horvat couldn't bring in a top 4 D or else it would have happened.

Think about it.. if we were on the playoff bubble, would you trade Hughes for Patrick Kane? Hell no, not in a million years.

Expiring UFAs do not bring in top players on contracts.

 

In regards to scouting defence, this is always tricky. A large percentage of top 4 D were drafted after the 2nd round. This takes scouts with vision and a strong development program. Canucks have had bad luck drafting D men and worse luck keeping them healthy.

 

My biggest concern right now is Allvins hard on for European prospects. Time will tell.

 

All in all I am happy with the trade. There are also intangibles like shifting the team culture under Tocchet. Horvat will have resisted change and made things hard on other players.

 

This is a fresh start that is long overdue.

 

I'm all for Euros, especially Finns.  I have zero issues with Raty.

[rekker]

10 minutes ago, stawns said:

How do you know he's a pure rental?  

He has no extension in place at the time of the trade. We are not privy to any possible talks so one is to assume at the time of the trade, a pure rental. 

[stawns]

5 minutes ago, The Lock said:

I think Vancouver just won't have the money for that. It wouldn't even matter if Horvat wanted to or not.

Depends on any subsequent moves.

[Highstickin]

5 minutes ago, stawns said:

Why would offers get worse closer to the deadline?  Thats not generally how it works.......the closer you get to the tdl, the more desperate teams get.  The more desperate teams get, the more they give up.

Offers get worse closer to the deadline when contending teams trade for players not from the Canucks because our asking price is too high. There are lots of players available this year and holding out to get a larger return could land you without a dance partner come deadline day. 

 

Just look at what happened last year with Miller. We waited and held out for a better return, which never happened, and then we were forced to either sign him to a contract that he will struggle to live up to or lose him on the open market. The exact same scenario could have easily happened with Bo.