Horvat was taken for granted here

[JayDangles]

4 hours ago, RU SERIOUS said:

Nobody should kid themselves.  Bo wasn't traded to get a draft pick and a couple of players - Nor - was he traded due to cap restrictions.   His departure was very intentional and decide upon a long time ago and as I stated several times over the past year, I firmly believe the real reason he's gone is that the new management wanted to get new leadership to gut the team locker room of the complacency and "West Coast Country Club" atmosphere that this team has had for over a decade.    No other reason!

 

Once they get rid of the other floaters and freeloaders (and we all know who they are) thru trade, buyout or contract termination, we might start to see some tangible results.   Until more of the deadwood is removed - don't expect much change just because 1 player is gone!

 

Here's hoping JR, PA and The "Chipmunk Girls" have finally woken up and see what we've been forced to watch for the last decade and make the other additional changes that MUST BE MADE!

Hey! We covered this! You have to call them Chippettes because that's what they're actually called in the show! It keeps the haters and woke crowd off their soapbox!

[JayDangles]

7 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

Absolutely agree, we always viewed him as a 2nd line center, last year we thought of him as our 3rd best under Petey and Miller. Even as our captain he never earned the recognition he deserved for putting up consistent 30 goal seasons and being good at the center role.

 

Now he moves to NYI and they basically build the team around him - he's on their top line playing with their best player in an offensive role.

 

Not ONCE did the Canucks play him with their best player, Pettersson. I always thought it'd be nice to put them on a line together but we never loaded up. Miller went all over the place, but this Canucks team was sadly never revolving around Bo - it was Petey's, then Miller's last year. Even having a huge year this year, he ran second fiddle to Petey. While that's justified, I think he was never respected as much as he is now. His offensive talents are plain to see but we never played him as an offensive center because of Petey.

 

Now he's getting his name chanted, he's playing the sniper role, I think we'll see him really flourish. For those who thought 8.5M was too much, just you watch - that's a bargain for a 27 year old top line center who is scoring at a 50 goal pace. This isn't just a contract year boost, this is a prime player entering his prime and has just worked himself out of a basement team's 2nd line onto a possible playoff team's first line. 

 

I know the trade had to be made and we got decent value for it, but credit to Lou for hunting a big name player, signing him and putting him in a position to succeed. This contract will look like a big win and bargain in a couple of years time. How it ages longer-term will up in the air (although personally I believe Horvat will age well and regress slowly into a 3C role gracefully unlike others...), but right now it's looking like a win-win trade all of a sudden, but I give the bigger win to the Islanders and Bo. Next year Bo is going to be one of the best players in the league again.

Relax, the fans are chanting because he's a brand new toy and was brought in to try and salvage the playoffs this year. His shine will wear off.

 

Give it 4 years. Halfway through that contract those fans will be throwing Horvat jerseys on the ice.

[JayDangles]

8 hours ago, Darius said:

good point.  

 

but agree to disagree.  i think if Canucks offered 8 or something close he would have stayed.  Just pure speculation of course.

And if he stayed, we could have iced the same lineup with the same leadership core and likely the same results next year. 

The old saying will always apply, nothing changes if nothing changes.

[Darius]

19 minutes ago, JayDangles said:

And if he stayed, we could have iced the same lineup with the same leadership core and likely the same results next year. 

The old saying will always apply, nothing changes if nothing changes.

Im not buying the narrative that the leadership core  is\was an issue here.

 

The issue is that we have a d core where only 2 players are playing where they belong.  QH is a top pair D man, Schenn is a bottom pair D man.  All the other guys are in over their heads.  Sure they perform for a game here or there but how many of these guys would be playing top 4 on a legit cup calibre team.  Bear couldnt crack the Carolina lineup.
 

The issue is that we have no legit 3c,  no legit shutdown forwards (although EP is turning into one)

 

Throw in two AHL calibre goalies that cant mask the problems like Demko did last year and you get what we see this year,

 

Do people really think that if Bo fought every other game and started yelling at guys like Miller that this would have masked all the holes in the lineup?

 

I also get what you are saying.  Fixing the team will require big moves and Bo getting traded might be the start of fixing the holes.

 

[EdgarM]

12 minutes ago, Darius said:

Im not buying the narrative that the leadership core  is\was an issue here.

 

The issue is that we have a d core where only 2 players are playing where they belong.  QH is a top pair D man, Schenn is a bottom pair D man.  All the other guys are in over their heads.  Sure they perform for a game here or there but how many of these guys would be playing top 4 on a legit cup calibre team.  Bear couldnt crack the Carolina lineup.
 

The issue is that we have no legit 3c,  no legit shutdown forwards (although EP is turning into one)

 

Throw in two AHL calibre goalies that cant mask the problems like Demko did last year and you get what we see this year,

 

Do people really think that if Bo fought every other game and started yelling at guys like Miller that this would have masked all the holes in the lineup?

 

I also get what you are saying.  Fixing the team will require big moves and Bo getting traded might be the start of fixing the holes.

 

I think there are two issues here. 1) Players not playing in the right positions and 2) Leadership

First, I believe we have a mish mash of players who do the exact same thing which causes confusion. Bo, Petey and Miller were the most obvious. We had 3 centers who needed to fill the #1 Center position and #2 Center position. It is obvious now but it wasn't when Bo was here. The "Who is the Offensive defenseman on the team" is the other obvious concern which needs to be rectified. Hopefully through a trade or two?

The Leadership/Culture needed to change, period. We were not going to have success no matter who was on the team with that style of play. Unfortunately Bo was a great player, but he brought the philosophy/Culture that was here before him. He needed to go, regardless of how good of a player he was.

[Darius]

3 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

I think there are two issues here. 1) Players not playing in the right positions and 2) Leadership

First, I believe we have a mish mash of players who do the exact same thing which causes confusion. Bo, Petey and Miller were the most obvious. We had 3 centers who needed to fill the #1 Center position and #2 Center position. It is obvious now but it wasn't when Bo was here. The "Who is the Offensive defenseman on the team" is the other obvious concern which needs to be rectified. Hopefully through a trade or two?

The Leadership/Culture needed to change, period. We were not going to have success no matter who was on the team with that style of play. Unfortunately Bo was a great player, but he brought the philosophy/Culture that was here before him. He needed to go, regardless of how good of a player he was.

What philosphy/culture did he bring that was here before him?  The culture that brought the team to within 1 game of the cup? (and prob could have won the cup with a bit of luck in the health/injury department and one more stellar goaltending performance in the away barn)?

 

Do you think LInden was a great leader?

 

[Nucker 67]

Tough act to follow, taking over the C from Henrik at a young age. Horvat was treated very well by the Canucks, made him captain, but Bo did lack passion and sacrifice IMO.

 

Now, we see Petey doing that (blocking shots, his excellent D, etc). That's what a real leader does. I think Bo might've gotten too big for his britches and felt he deserved more than Miller. That seemed to be his focus. Do the Canucks want that kind of team mate?

 

Really tough decision, but it was a really good move trading him when they did.  This is Petey's team now.

[Dazzle]

9 hours ago, GhostsOf1994 said:

Sorry it's hard to understand when you clamed bo had 65 points, proven wrong then go do some math to cover for it.(your words)

 

Now a its diverted again, you said Beauvillier isnt worth a 1st rounder, showed you proof otherwise, now he is not the same type of player.

 

whats next for an excuse?

 

Enjoy & please take solace knowing Bo Horvat or that terrible contract will never again be a Vancouver Canuck.

Huh? I was never proven wrong with the math.

 

A few posters made some very disingenuous math observations that you didn't even bother to fact check. I maintained that Horvat had improved every year. The points increased, but the games played decrease.

 

This forum is ridiculous.

[rychicken]

14 hours ago, Dazzle said:

These couple of games have revealed something - fanbase and organization took him for granted.

 

Horvat gave his heart and soul to this city and team. And what did we do? We made all sorts of excuses to diminish his contributions. Worst of all, him getting 8.5 mill was him apparently "getting greedy"

 

Now NYI fans are cheering for him in a way that fans haven't done before, despite the number of jerseys.

 

Horvat has left us behind - and he isn't going to look back. Management and the fans here have let him down for the last time.

 

We talk about other people at fault (i.e. Benning), but we rarely talk about how we seriously screwed up.

 

We did Horvat dirty.

Far from it

[Mando27]

Disagree if anything fans overrate Horvat. Don't get me wrong he's a nice guy and a team player but don't see him as the kind of guy you win the cup with. Doesn't seem to have that extra drive.

[Junkyard Dog]

Just now, Mando27 said:

Disagree if anything fans overrate Horvat. Don't get me wrong he's a nice guy and a team player but don't see him as the kind of guy you win the cup with. Doesn't seem to have that extra drive.

iDK about that. He's a proven playoff performer at all levels. OHL playoff MVP, 10 goals in the bubble, Was one of our best players vs Calgary. 19% shooting percentage and almost 60% on faceoff dot in playoffs. That's all with a 57% defensive starts in the playoffs. 

 

He just had Jim Benning as a GM for most of his tenure here and Jimbo couldn't build a competitive team for the life of him. Heck the mess Benning made made it impossible to re-sign Bo and is making it almost impossible to reshape the roster as is.

[combover]

Sone fans here have the same mentality as the owner and Jim Benning 

the shinny new toy is better.

 

remember how many wanted EP traded

last season when he wouldn’t resign same ones worried he won’t be happy lilololol. Classic. 

 

i happy for Bo he got out this club is set to continue with its dog chasing its tail plan. And act surprised when it  bite itself.

he wasted enough of his career here giving ample  opportunity to clueless owners and horrendous management (Jb)  time to take their heads out of each other’s  asses and he was rewarded by being spit on with a pay cut contract offer  in the summer. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Phil_314]

4 hours ago, D.B Cooper said:

I’m not talking about any of our other players.  Nice straw man though.  
Also, I didn’t say he was bad at all.  
He is obviously good.  
I said he isn’t worth that contract, and he isn’t.  Not even close 

So he's not bad and obviously good but not worth the contract?  In your eyes is the only way that he'd be worth it would've been stepping into a time machine and going back to Tage Thompson and Dylan Cozens' age but retaining his current peak performance so that he can grow into his prime and have the $8.5 million be a bargain?  Unfortunately it doesn't work like that/ Horvat's already in his prime but he's 27, and either you pay for the majority of his prime years, or you don't get him at all (prime UFA's don't need to sign for fewer years).

Edited February 10, 2023 by Phil_314

[EddieVedder]

Podz has looked really good. Hes the key here.  We need him and hogz to start growing into regular top 6ers to give petey, kuz, miller, beau some support long term.

[EdgarM]

1 hour ago, Darius said:

What philosphy/culture did he bring that was here before him?  The culture that brought the team to within 1 game of the cup? (and prob could have won the cup with a bit of luck in the health/injury department and one more stellar goaltending performance in the away barn)?

 

Do you think LInden was a great leader?

 

The much talked about "Country Club" atmosphere or the Gentlemanly play by Bo's predecessors and yes Linden was a great leader. 

The easiest way to explain it is to look at how each of the era of the Canucks played in the playoffs. We have been easily disposed of in the playoffs and 2011 had such a great team, but we still lost. 

The last time we played the right way and did the little things ,without cutting corners, was in Lindens era. 

We have had trouble when teams come at us with aggression and intensity and we cannot match it. 2011 playoffs and the series when Ferlund manhandling the whole team in the playoffs are good examples. We missed that pack mentality. 

I see this team slowly moving back in that direction, which is great to see.

[MattWN.]

16 hours ago, D.B Cooper said:

Get over it.  
He didn’t do anything spectacular. 
He came to work and did his job. 
He was far from inspiring. 

He isnt worth close to that contract and you will see that as soon as next year.  
 

 

He captained this team to it's most mediocre period in franchise history, while contributing to a fractured locker room with a country club vibe! 

That's gotta count for something, right?

[lmm]

28 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

The much talked about "Country Club" atmosphere or the Gentlemanly play by Bo's predecessors and yes Linden was a great leader. 

The easiest way to explain it is to look at how each of the era of the Canucks played in the playoffs. We have been easily disposed of in the playoffs and 2011 had such a great team, but we still lost. 

The last time we played the right way and did the little things ,without cutting corners, was in Lindens era. 

We have had trouble when teams come at us with aggression and intensity and we cannot match it. 2011 playoffs and the series when Ferlund manhandling the whole team in the playoffs are good examples. We missed that pack mentality. 

I see this team slowly moving back in that direction, which is great to see.

last night it was Ethan Bear

did you see him get knocked over near the NY net, 

think about going after the D-man that put him down, then smile and skate away

He looked like he knew Horvat had his back

 

we are not there yet

 

One day far, far in the future, I hope we have 5 D that are over 6'3" and 210#, and Hughes

and a tougher tough guy than DakJo (the sniper)

It still feels like a fairy tale to me

[Darius]

22 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

The much talked about "Country Club" atmosphere or the Gentlemanly play by Bo's predecessors and yes Linden was a great leader. 

The easiest way to explain it is to look at how each of the era of the Canucks played in the playoffs. We have been easily disposed of in the playoffs and 2011 had such a great team, but we still lost. 

The last time we played the right way and did the little things ,without cutting corners, was in Lindens era. 

We have had trouble when teams come at us with aggression and intensity and we cannot match it. 2011 playoffs and the series when Ferlund manhandling the whole team in the playoffs are good examples. We missed that pack mentality. 

I see this team slowly moving back in that direction, which is great to see.

IMO 2011 was lost because of injuries and Luongo's inability to steal a game in Boston.  The supposed gentlemanly play of Bo's predecessors was good enough to eliminate 3 other teams wasnt it?  It was good enough to lead the team to the top of the standings more than once. 

 

Bo wasnt the problem here.  The attrocious D core, AHL goaltending, lack of shutdown forwards are the problem.

 

I get it, people need someone to blame and when the team is bad  so his supposed deficiencies are magnified.  Take Linden as an example.  You claim he was a great leader, and I agree.  But when the team started going south in 1995 people started to blame him.  He wasnt tough enough. He wasnt a good leader. . Same things we are seeing regarding Bo today.

 

Look at some posts (few examples out of many) from 1995 and 1996 from the internet Canucks forum (before CDC existed) regarding Linden...sound familiar?:

 

1995

"How many people are like me and are sick and tired of watching the captain of our hockey club fall to the ice and cover up at the slightest hint of provocation? Name one other captain of an NHL club who won't drop the gloves. There are many former winners of the Lady Bing that have more intestinal fortitude than our glorious captain. (Makita comes to mind) Don't get me wrong, I admire Trevor, but there are certain responsibilties involved in wearing the `C'. First and foremost you must lead. Lead in the dressing room, lead on the ice and lead into battle. Let's face it, any team whose back-up goaltender has more fighting majors than their leader is destined for the cellar."

--

"Agreed - what a friggin wuss! That's why I'd trade Linden in a second for Tkachuk from Wpg. Although the Jets would be stupid to do that!"

----

1996

"I watched in disgust as Claude Lemieux slapped him [Linden] around like a little scared boy, and virtually spit in his face. What made this fiasco even worse was that I was watching the game with a crazed Claude Lemieux fan, who laughed at me a spit on me for being a Canuck fan. I had to spit back at him to get even, vulgarity. A real power foward is fearless and backs down from nobody. Linden consistently cowers from creeps like Claude Lemieux,and tough guys, especially Manson. From these observations, I conclude that Trevor Linden is not a power forward."

---

"I agree that Linden's unwillingness to fight is too craven, at times. But that's him. othing will make him change and nobody should try. The league is full of guys who won't fight. The Canucks have more than their share and it causes them to degrade their performance at critical times."

----

 

 

[D.B Cooper]

1 hour ago, Phil_314 said:

So he's not bad and obviously good but not worth the contract?  In your eyes is the only way that he'd be worth it would've been stepping into a time machine and going back to Tage Thompson and Dylan Cozens' age but retaining his current peak performance so that he can grow into his prime and have the $8.5 million be a bargain?  Unfortunately it doesn't work like that/ Horvat's already in his prime but he's 27, and either you pay for the majority of his prime years, or you don't get him at all (prime UFA's don't need to sign for fewer years).

Yes, he is obviously good AND not worth that contract.     
How is that tough to understand?   
Also, yes if he was 6 years younger and putting up the numbers he is now, he would be closer to being worth that very long expensive contract.   
Someone putting up those numbers at 21 has the potential to hit those numbers for the duration of the contract and won’t have to worry about age related decline.  
 

Bo wasn’t close to the player those kids are when he was their age.   That’s why he got 4/5 mill a year back then and they got 8.  
 

 

[Alflives]

32 minutes ago, D.B Cooper said:

Yes, he is obviously good AND not worth that contract.     
How is that tough to understand?   
Also, yes if he was 6 years younger and putting up the numbers he is now, he would be closer to being worth that very long expensive contract.   
Someone putting up those numbers at 21 has the potential to hit those numbers for the duration of the contract and won’t have to worry about age related decline.  
 

Bo wasn’t close to the player those kids are when he was their age.   That’s why he got 4/5 mill a year back then and they got 8.  
 

 

Yup.  Love Bo, and he was good here - mostly.  But he's a 50-60 point player having a career year at age 28.  It's most likely he reverts back to being the guy he's been through his prime years.  68 million is too much for that guy.  The Landeskog contract was fair for Bo.