Filip Hronek | #17 | D

[higgyfan]

On 3/3/2023 at 7:02 PM, Baggins said:

You seem to think Hoglander has some real value. I doubt you could get the 2nd we spent on him right now. He's had a chance (141 NHL games) and got sent down to the AHL. He's a player that has taken too long to get to where he needs to be. Garland is a pretty good NHL player. I don't understand how you would prefer to move positive value over negative value with a maybe, just maybe, one day player to create cap space. You get cap space but it doesn't improve the team when keeping that negative value player. Plus we may just lose Hogs to waivers anyway.

I like Garland's game and I'm not a huge Hogs fan, but comparing a 22yrs player to a 26ys player is unfair. 

Conor is in his prime right now, while Nils is still developing.  Their game history supports the idea that

Nils will become the better player. 

 

Nils drafted in 2nd; Conor drafted in 5th

Nils at 17yrs played in SHL; Conor played in Jr as an overager at 19yrs

Nils at 19yrs played in NHL; Conor at 22yrs played his first season in NHL.

 

Of course, it's not a sure thing that Nils will develop into a better player than Conor.  At the moment, I

would say that Hogs' skills are better than Garland's, but I don't know that he has the tremendous drive

that we have seen in Conor's games.  That drive can often times be the difference maker for a player.

 

Nils appears to be playing better in Abby and may be finding his way back to the NHL.  He still has value,

but he needs to take things to the next level to replace Garland.

 

 

 

[Sell.the.team]

finally an Athletic article about the actual player

 

https://theathletic.com/4278146/2023/03/06/filip-hronek-canucks-blue-line/

 

[Baggins]

5 hours ago, higgyfan said:

I like Garland's game and I'm not a huge Hogs fan, but comparing a 22yrs player to a 26ys player is unfair. 

Conor is in his prime right now, while Nils is still developing.  Their game history supports the idea that

Nils will become the better player. 

 

Nils drafted in 2nd; Conor drafted in 5th

Nils at 17yrs played in SHL; Conor played in Jr as an overager at 19yrs

Nils at 19yrs played in NHL; Conor at 22yrs played his first season in NHL.

 

Of course, it's not a sure thing that Nils will develop into a better player than Conor.  At the moment, I

would say that Hogs' skills are better than Garland's, but I don't know that he has the tremendous drive

that we have seen in Conor's games.  That drive can often times be the difference maker for a player.

 

Nils appears to be playing better in Abby and may be finding his way back to the NHL.  He still has value,

but he needs to take things to the next level to replace Garland.

 

 

 

Juolevi drafted 5th overall, Bieksa drafted 5th round

Juolevi at 19 played SM-Liigga, Bieksa 22 played college

Juolevi at 21 played in the NHL, Bieksa at 24 played his first season

 

When Juolevi became waiver elligible would you have kept him over a 26 yr old Bieksa because of the above?

 

I get that Hogs is "liked" but that bold part of your post is utterly meaningless. What matters is what they are in the here and now. Hoglander is going to be waiver elligible. That's important. If he not ready to secure a roster spot then it's really important. I've never once said Hogs doesn't have value. If he didn't have any value I wouldn't be the least bit concerned about waivers because he'd likely clear and wouldn't care much if he didn't. It would be nice to hang on to your prospects until there's some real certainly but that's not the reality. Unfortunately prospects come with an expiry date where you can lose them for nothing. 

 

Forward is a position we have some depth at, even among prospects. Competition is getting tougher to secure a spot. Even if Boeser and/or Garland are moved it doesn't guarantee Hogs a spot next fall. Yes, they can wait untill camp/preseason to make the call on Hogs, particularly if a roster player is moved. I have no problem with that at all. But, if a deal comes up I have no issue whatsoever about moving him. There's more coming in pipeline.

 

Are you into gifting players a spot despite clearly better options? I'm not. If you're not, are you willing to roll the dice Hogs would clear waivers? Imo, anybody that's saying he would clear is also saying he's not that good nor valuable enough for another team to take him for free. I don't believe he'd clear because I believe he does have value. I also believe he will become a decent middle 6 NHL winger. He's the type of prospect I would really hate to lose for nothing.

 

So am I willing to include him in a trade that unloads a bad contact? Absolutely. Am I willing to include him in a trade that improves the team? Absolutely. In the end prospects, like picks and roster players, are moveable assets. Sorry, but liked or not Hogs doesn't fall into the untouchable category for me.

[PhillipBlunt]

4 hours ago, Sell.the.team said:

finally an Athletic article about the actual player

 

https://theathletic.com/4278146/2023/03/06/filip-hronek-canucks-blue-line/

 

Do a brother a solid and copy and paste, brah!

[Playoff Beered]

1 hour ago, PhillipBlunt said:

Do a brother a solid and copy and paste, brah!

I got you...

 

Why Filip Hronek will give the Canucks’ blue line a massive upgrade

 

Vancouver’s big swing for Filip Hronek was a stunning, polarizing twist to the club’s trade deadline plans. The debate in this market has been so concentrated on the cost and aggressive timing of the trade that we haven’t spent enough time analyzing what kind of value Hronek will bring.

It’s important to dive into that because the 25-year-old right-shot defender is in the middle of a breakout season where he’s provided borderline top-pair quality value. Did the Red Wings sell high on a player who is having an outlier year and/or setting himself up for a big extension at the end of next season that may be risky? Or did the Canucks seize a unique opportunity to add a player at a premium position who’s legitimately levelled up his game?

 

Let’s dig in.

---

Hronek broke into the league as a 21-year-old and was immediately thrust into a major role. He was thrown to the wolves, playing 22-24 minutes per game in a top-pair role on an awful, rebuilding Red Wings team and tasked with defending the opposition’s best players. Hronek was offensively productive immediately, scoring 80 points in 167 games (a 39-points-per-82-games pace) through his first three NHL seasons.

There were major holes in his all-around game, however. Hronek struggled to drive even-strength play and was on the ice for 81 goals for and 139 against at five-on-five in those first three seasons. He was even a healthy scratch for a pair of games early in 2021-22.

It’s understandable, however, for a young defenceman to struggle to handle tough minutes on a bad, rebuilding team.

Hronek has taken a huge step this year. It’s the second season that he’s settled into a second-pair role behind Moritz Seider. That meant a lighter workload where he’s faced league-average matchups (only occasionally playing against top lines) and slightly trimmed minutes. Hronek’s responded by tying his career high of 38 points in 18 fewer games than last year and driving a positive five-on-five goal share for the first time in his career.

It’s worth pointing out that he’s been the beneficiary of a 103 PDO (PDO is the sum of his team’s shooting percentage offensively and save percentage defensively when that player is on the ice), which means he’s had some offensive bounces and that defensively, his goalies have been rocking a higher-than-usual save percentage. I wouldn’t be too worried about this breakout being unsustainable because part of that good fortune has been offset by some of the minutes he’s had to play with Ben Chiarot.

Chiarot had a cratering impact on Seider’s number early in the season. When they got split up, Chiarot had a similarly devastating impact on Hronek’s five-on-five play.

Hronek’s had an encouraging two-way impact whenever he’s paired with anybody but Chiarot. The numbers only tell part of the story for a player, however. I watched some tapes of Hronek’s game this season to get further insight into why he’s had a breakout year and what type of impact he can have on the Canucks’ blue line.

Hronek’s significantly improved defensive play

Hronek’s evolution this season was immediately apparent when watching film. In the past, he’s been described as a player with defensive warts, but I came away impressed with how complete his all-around game appeared. He definitely didn’t look like the second coming of Chris Tanev defensively or anything, but he profiles like a reliable, well-rounded player.

 

The best standout trait defensively was his competitiveness. Hronek is average sized but he excels as a one-on-one defender. When an attacker handles the puck for too long, Hronek is aggressive at closing the gap and using his body and stick to disrupt the play and create a change in possession. In the clip below, Dylan Cozens weaves his way into the offensive zone for a clean entry. Cozens tries to cut back to make a pass, but Hronek pounces and breaks up the play and the Red Wings are able to transition out of their zone.

Hronek is constantly trying to harass and apply pressure on puck carriers. Here’s another example on Matt Boldy which results in a change of possession.

Below, you’ll see a neat one-on-one defensive sequence against Steven Stamkos. Hronek maintains a tight gap, Stamkos runs out of space to make a play and then the former makes a short D-to-D pass to Chiarot that helps the Red Wings break out the other way.

Hronek’s competitiveness allows him to effectively battle against bigger forwards around the crease. There was one play in that same Tampa Bay game, for example, where he won a crucial battle against Alex Killorn for a rebound right in front of the net.

When a team is able to cycle the puck around the zone quickly, Hronek can be prone to closing space a split second too late which sometimes resulted in chances against. He isn’t the most agile rush defender either. Here’s a two-on-one rush below where the Sabres are able to make three passes across back and forth before generating a Grade-A chance.

One of the biggest issues for the Canucks is that their defencemen don’t read plays fast enough to take away dangerous offensive threats. Hronek, on the other hand, is constantly scanning and checking over his shoulder to try and clog passing lanes. That’s helped him defend cross-seam passes. I’ve thrown together a compilation of three examples where that helped him block a dangerous pass.

Hronek doesn’t make egregious reads or throw himself way out of position either. He’s taken a serious step this season toward becoming a competitive, effective defensive player which has been evident in his drastically improved penalty-killing results as well.

How much will Hronek’s puck-moving help the Canucks?

One of the other surprises when watching Hronek was that he isn’t quite the workhorse puck-mover I thought he might be. He’s still a solid transporter and will instantly become the Canucks’ best puck-mover from the right side, don’t get me wrong. But I would hesitate to use words like “high end” and “dynamic” to describe his transportation skills.

 

This season, Hronek’s led 5.04 defensive zone exits with possession per 60 minutes according to Corey Sznajder’s tracking. That ranks fourth among Red Wings defencemen behind Seider, Jake Walman and Olli Määttä.

Hronek is a smooth, cerebral puck carrier. That allows him to skate the puck up ice when the opposition forecheck has backed up. Here are a couple of examples below.

Hronek is mobile but doesn’t have the type of explosive acceleration with his first two steps that would allow him to separate from forecheckers that are hounding him. In other words, give him some space and he’s a confident puck carrier. But forecheck him aggressively and he’ll look to pass or punt the puck up ice.

When forecheckers are closing fast, he can be a little inconsistent. Sometimes, he’ll make a brilliant, nifty pass like this:

Other times, he might not make the best decision under pressure. On the play below, for example, Hronek has the option to make a bank pass to a teammate in the neutral zone but instead sends it off the boards and back to the Minnesota Wild.

Later in that game, he didn’t make the best decision/pass from a set breakout which allowed the Wild to re-enter the zone.

Overall, Hronek looks like the sort of player whose puck-moving utility hinges on the quality of the close support of his teammates. When he has wingers and centres who come deep and provide good passing options to relieve pressure, he can hit those targets efficiently. If he has space for himself, he can skate it out individually too. But if teammate support is mixed, he often does flip pucks out or off the boards.

Hronek’s mobility and solid puck-moving skills will help the Canucks. But don’t tie a slow, anchor of a partner next to him and expect that he’ll be able to carry the pair by himself the way a dynamic, elite puck transporter might be able to.

Hronek’s wicked shot and other offensive tools

Hronek is a dual threat in the offensive zone, dangerous as both a shooter and passer. He can rip the puck with a hard one-timer but also walk in and pick his spot with a snipe.

Detroit defenseman Filip Hronek with his 7th goal, 25th point of the season with a snipe on the PP. What a shot! ⁦@hronek_filip⁩ ⁦@ehshockey⁩ ⁦@OctagonHockey⁩ pic.twitter.com/cxH8swKSb8

— Allan Walsh (@walsha) December 17, 2022

 

Teams have to respect his shot, so he’s capable of faking a bomb and then hitting a teammate with a shot pass.

Good reads with the puck come naturally to Hronek, who can walk the line pretty well too.

 

Hronek is really adept at pinching up the wall to keep plays alive in the offensive zone. None of those are highlight-reel plays on their own, but the benefit accumulates over time.

A defenceman’s ability to register points is often tied to opportunity though, so don’t be surprised if his production tapers given that 16 of Hronek’s 38 points have come on the power play where the Canucks already have Quinn Hughes (unless they go with two defenders on PP1).

We don’t know yet if Hronek will slot with Hughes at five-on-five or on a second pair so that the Canucks can split their two best defencemen up and maximize the amount of time that at least one of them is on the ice. But Hronek will at least surely get some shifts with Hughes when the Canucks are trailing. That’ll be really exciting to watch because Hughes has never had a partner with Hronek’s offensive versatility.

Conclusion

Hronek profiles as a jack-of-all-trades two-way defenceman. He wasn’t quite as dynamic leading breakouts as I anticipated but was far more reliable defensively than I expected, especially now that his matchups and minutes have been scaled more reasonably. He checks the boxes of a quality No. 3 defenceman to me — somebody who can either caddy a legitimate No. 1 like Hughes or be an effective driver on his own pair, provided he has a competent partner.

Regardless of how he’s deployed, Hronek is far and away better than any right-shot defencemen the Canucks have employed this season and should be a core player for some time.

(Photo of Filip Hronek, Ville Husso and Andrei Kuzmenko: Bob Frid / USA Today)

 

A couple of the vids wouldn't paste                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

 

Edited March 7, 2023 by Playoff Beered

[higgyfan]

2 hours ago, Baggins said:

Juolevi drafted 5th overall, Bieksa drafted 5th round

Juolevi at 19 played SM-Liigga, Bieksa 22 played college

Juolevi at 21 played in the NHL, Bieksa at 24 played his first season

 

When Juolevi became waiver elligible would you have kept him over a 26 yr old Bieksa because of the above?

The stats don't lie when they show that a 2nd rounder has a far better chance to make the NHL than a 5th.

Of course there are times when it doesn't turn out that way...

 

Juolevi had 23gms + 3pts in Vancouver.  He's a bust. Why would anyone keep him over Bieksa?  Really?

 

...but most often it does.

 

2 hours ago, Baggins said:

I get that Hogs is "liked" but that bold part of your post is utterly meaningless. What matters is what they are in the here and now. Hoglander is going to be waiver elligible. That's important. If he not ready to secure a roster spot then it's really important. I've never once said Hogs doesn't have value. If he didn't have any value I wouldn't be the least bit concerned about waivers because he'd likely clear and wouldn't care much if he didn't. It would be nice to hang on to your prospects until there's some real certainly but that's not the reality. Unfortunately prospects come with an expiry date where you can lose them for nothing. 

You're getting into mansplaining territory here

Did I say I like Hogs?

 

 

2 hours ago, Baggins said:

Forward is a position we have some depth at, even among prospects. Competition is getting tougher to secure a spot. Even if Boeser and/or Garland are moved it doesn't guarantee Hogs a spot next fall. Yes, they can wait untill camp/preseason to make the call on Hogs, particularly if a roster player is moved. I have no problem with that at all. But, if a deal comes up I have no issue whatsoever about moving him. There's more coming in pipeline.

OK

 

2 hours ago, Baggins said:

Are you into gifting players a spot despite clearly better options? I'm not. If you're not, are you willing to roll the dice Hogs would clear waivers? Imo, anybody that's saying he would clear is also saying he's not that good nor valuable enough for another team to take him for free. I don't believe he'd clear because I believe he does have value. I also believe he will become a decent middle 6 NHL winger. He's the type of prospect I would really hate to lose for nothing.

I'm amazed how you've added so much to what I didn't say.

 

I agree, t's a lot of fun to make up proposals and I enjoy doing that too. 

Fans don't know the whole story behind the players.  The coaches see a player in every game,  

practice and activities off the ice.  They are very qualified to make decisions around a player's

NHL readiness.

 

Actually, I said I like Garland's game and I'm not a fan of Hogs.  I still think Hogs has some mad skills, but

I question if he has the drive to have the success that Conor has.  We'll see what happen in the offseason.

Edited March 7, 2023 by higgyfan

[PhillipBlunt]

1 hour ago, Playoff Beered said:

I got you...

 

Why Filip Hronek will give the Canucks’ blue line a massive upgrade

 

Vancouver’s big swing for Filip Hronek was a stunning, polarizing twist to the club’s trade deadline plans. The debate in this market has been so concentrated on the cost and aggressive timing of the trade that we haven’t spent enough time analyzing what kind of value Hronek will bring.

It’s important to dive into that because the 25-year-old right-shot defender is in the middle of a breakout season where he’s provided borderline top-pair quality value. Did the Red Wings sell high on a player who is having an outlier year and/or setting himself up for a big extension at the end of next season that may be risky? Or did the Canucks seize a unique opportunity to add a player at a premium position who’s legitimately levelled up his game?

 

Let’s dig in.

---

Hronek broke into the league as a 21-year-old and was immediately thrust into a major role. He was thrown to the wolves, playing 22-24 minutes per game in a top-pair role on an awful, rebuilding Red Wings team and tasked with defending the opposition’s best players. Hronek was offensively productive immediately, scoring 80 points in 167 games (a 39-points-per-82-games pace) through his first three NHL seasons.

There were major holes in his all-around game, however. Hronek struggled to drive even-strength play and was on the ice for 81 goals for and 139 against at five-on-five in those first three seasons. He was even a healthy scratch for a pair of games early in 2021-22.

It’s understandable, however, for a young defenceman to struggle to handle tough minutes on a bad, rebuilding team.

Hronek has taken a huge step this year. It’s the second season that he’s settled into a second-pair role behind Moritz Seider. That meant a lighter workload where he’s faced league-average matchups (only occasionally playing against top lines) and slightly trimmed minutes. Hronek’s responded by tying his career high of 38 points in 18 fewer games than last year and driving a positive five-on-five goal share for the first time in his career.

It’s worth pointing out that he’s been the beneficiary of a 103 PDO (PDO is the sum of his team’s shooting percentage offensively and save percentage defensively when that player is on the ice), which means he’s had some offensive bounces and that defensively, his goalies have been rocking a higher-than-usual save percentage. I wouldn’t be too worried about this breakout being unsustainable because part of that good fortune has been offset by some of the minutes he’s had to play with Ben Chiarot.

Chiarot had a cratering impact on Seider’s number early in the season. When they got split up, Chiarot had a similarly devastating impact on Hronek’s five-on-five play.

Hronek’s had an encouraging two-way impact whenever he’s paired with anybody but Chiarot. The numbers only tell part of the story for a player, however. I watched some tapes of Hronek’s game this season to get further insight into why he’s had a breakout year and what type of impact he can have on the Canucks’ blue line.

Hronek’s significantly improved defensive play

Hronek’s evolution this season was immediately apparent when watching film. In the past, he’s been described as a player with defensive warts, but I came away impressed with how complete his all-around game appeared. He definitely didn’t look like the second coming of Chris Tanev defensively or anything, but he profiles like a reliable, well-rounded player.

 

The best standout trait defensively was his competitiveness. Hronek is average sized but he excels as a one-on-one defender. When an attacker handles the puck for too long, Hronek is aggressive at closing the gap and using his body and stick to disrupt the play and create a change in possession. In the clip below, Dylan Cozens weaves his way into the offensive zone for a clean entry. Cozens tries to cut back to make a pass, but Hronek pounces and breaks up the play and the Red Wings are able to transition out of their zone.

Hronek is constantly trying to harass and apply pressure on puck carriers. Here’s another example on Matt Boldy which results in a change of possession.

Below, you’ll see a neat one-on-one defensive sequence against Steven Stamkos. Hronek maintains a tight gap, Stamkos runs out of space to make a play and then the former makes a short D-to-D pass to Chiarot that helps the Red Wings break out the other way.

Hronek’s competitiveness allows him to effectively battle against bigger forwards around the crease. There was one play in that same Tampa Bay game, for example, where he won a crucial battle against Alex Killorn for a rebound right in front of the net.

When a team is able to cycle the puck around the zone quickly, Hronek can be prone to closing space a split second too late which sometimes resulted in chances against. He isn’t the most agile rush defender either. Here’s a two-on-one rush below where the Sabres are able to make three passes across back and forth before generating a Grade-A chance.

One of the biggest issues for the Canucks is that their defencemen don’t read plays fast enough to take away dangerous offensive threats. Hronek, on the other hand, is constantly scanning and checking over his shoulder to try and clog passing lanes. That’s helped him defend cross-seam passes. I’ve thrown together a compilation of three examples where that helped him block a dangerous pass.

Hronek doesn’t make egregious reads or throw himself way out of position either. He’s taken a serious step this season toward becoming a competitive, effective defensive player which has been evident in his drastically improved penalty-killing results as well.

How much will Hronek’s puck-moving help the Canucks?

One of the other surprises when watching Hronek was that he isn’t quite the workhorse puck-mover I thought he might be. He’s still a solid transporter and will instantly become the Canucks’ best puck-mover from the right side, don’t get me wrong. But I would hesitate to use words like “high end” and “dynamic” to describe his transportation skills.

 

This season, Hronek’s led 5.04 defensive zone exits with possession per 60 minutes according to Corey Sznajder’s tracking. That ranks fourth among Red Wings defencemen behind Seider, Jake Walman and Olli Määttä.

Hronek is a smooth, cerebral puck carrier. That allows him to skate the puck up ice when the opposition forecheck has backed up. Here are a couple of examples below.

Hronek is mobile but doesn’t have the type of explosive acceleration with his first two steps that would allow him to separate from forecheckers that are hounding him. In other words, give him some space and he’s a confident puck carrier. But forecheck him aggressively and he’ll look to pass or punt the puck up ice.

When forecheckers are closing fast, he can be a little inconsistent. Sometimes, he’ll make a brilliant, nifty pass like this:

Other times, he might not make the best decision under pressure. On the play below, for example, Hronek has the option to make a bank pass to a teammate in the neutral zone but instead sends it off the boards and back to the Minnesota Wild.

Later in that game, he didn’t make the best decision/pass from a set breakout which allowed the Wild to re-enter the zone.

Overall, Hronek looks like the sort of player whose puck-moving utility hinges on the quality of the close support of his teammates. When he has wingers and centres who come deep and provide good passing options to relieve pressure, he can hit those targets efficiently. If he has space for himself, he can skate it out individually too. But if teammate support is mixed, he often does flip pucks out or off the boards.

Hronek’s mobility and solid puck-moving skills will help the Canucks. But don’t tie a slow, anchor of a partner next to him and expect that he’ll be able to carry the pair by himself the way a dynamic, elite puck transporter might be able to.

Hronek’s wicked shot and other offensive tools

Hronek is a dual threat in the offensive zone, dangerous as both a shooter and passer. He can rip the puck with a hard one-timer but also walk in and pick his spot with a snipe.

Detroit defenseman Filip Hronek with his 7th goal, 25th point of the season with a snipe on the PP. What a shot! ⁦@hronek_filip⁩ ⁦@ehshockey⁩ ⁦@OctagonHockey⁩ pic.twitter.com/cxH8swKSb8

— Allan Walsh (@walsha) December 17, 2022

 

Teams have to respect his shot, so he’s capable of faking a bomb and then hitting a teammate with a shot pass.

Good reads with the puck come naturally to Hronek, who can walk the line pretty well too.

 

Hronek is really adept at pinching up the wall to keep plays alive in the offensive zone. None of those are highlight-reel plays on their own, but the benefit accumulates over time.

A defenceman’s ability to register points is often tied to opportunity though, so don’t be surprised if his production tapers given that 16 of Hronek’s 38 points have come on the power play where the Canucks already have Quinn Hughes (unless they go with two defenders on PP1).

We don’t know yet if Hronek will slot with Hughes at five-on-five or on a second pair so that the Canucks can split their two best defencemen up and maximize the amount of time that at least one of them is on the ice. But Hronek will at least surely get some shifts with Hughes when the Canucks are trailing. That’ll be really exciting to watch because Hughes has never had a partner with Hronek’s offensive versatility.

Conclusion

Hronek profiles as a jack-of-all-trades two-way defenceman. He wasn’t quite as dynamic leading breakouts as I anticipated but was far more reliable defensively than I expected, especially now that his matchups and minutes have been scaled more reasonably. He checks the boxes of a quality No. 3 defenceman to me — somebody who can either caddy a legitimate No. 1 like Hughes or be an effective driver on his own pair, provided he has a competent partner.

Regardless of how he’s deployed, Hronek is far and away better than any right-shot defencemen the Canucks have employed this season and should be a core player for some time.

(Photo of Filip Hronek, Ville Husso and Andrei Kuzmenko: Bob Frid / USA Today)

 

A couple of the vids wouldn't paste                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

 

Thank you, @Playoff Beered

[Alflives]

Sounds like we got an ideal #2/3 D for our group. And he’s young. If we are lucky enough to get Livingston, then Hronek can carry OEL on our second pairing. Livingston can play with Hughes, or on our third pair. 

Hronek, Livingston, Bear is a darned good right side. 

[Baggins]

6 hours ago, higgyfan said:

The stats don't lie when they show that a 2nd rounder has a far better chance to make the NHL than a 5th.

Of course there are times when it doesn't turn out that way...

 

Juolevi had 23gms + 3pts in Vancouver.  He's a bust. Why would anyone keep him over Bieksa?  Really?

 

...but most often it does.

 

You're getting into mansplaining territory here

Did I say I like Hogs?

 

 

OK

 

I'm amazed how you've added so much to what I didn't say.

 

I agree, t's a lot of fun to make up proposals and I enjoy doing that too. 

Fans don't know the whole story behind the players.  The coaches see a player in every game,  

practice and activities off the ice.  They are very qualified to make decisions around a player's

NHL readiness.

 

Actually, I said I like Garland's game and I'm not a fan of Hogs.  I still think Hogs has some mad skills, but

I question if he has the drive to have the success that Conor has.  We'll see what happen in the offseason.

I don't understand why you were comparing where Hogs was drafted and played at what age compared to Garland. It's as utterly meaningless as my Bieksa/Juolevi comparison. It doesn't matter where you were drafted or where you played at what age. What matters is actually making the NHL and what you become there.

[higgyfan]

1 hour ago, Baggins said:

I don't understand why you were comparing where Hogs was drafted and played at what age compared to Garland. It's as utterly meaningless as my Bieksa/Juolevi comparison. It doesn't matter where you were drafted or where you played at what age. What matters is actually making the NHL and what you become there.

It does matter where a player is drafted.  It improves their chances in making the NHL.  Nobody would

rather pick a 5th rounder over a 2nd.  Juolevi turned out to be injury prone and barely had a cup of

coffee in the NHL.  At this point, we don't know how Hogs' career will go.

 

You are comparing a 26yr old to a 22yr old.  I was pointing out that Hogs has had more success so far, then

Garland at the same age.  I have no idea what Hogs' game will be like in 4 years.

 

I wasn't suggesting that the team hold onto Hogs if he isn't ready for the NHL.  As I said before, I

prefer Garland's game over Hogs', so if it comes down to which one stays, it would be Conor for me.

I don't see Hogs as a fit for an 'all in for the playoff next year' team, but would probably do well

on a team that is still developing.

 

When we see the lineup next season, there's a good chance that neither player will be on it.

[Baggins]

8 hours ago, higgyfan said:

It does matter where a player is drafted.  It improves their chances in making the NHL.  Nobody would

rather pick a 5th rounder over a 2nd.  Juolevi turned out to be injury prone and barely had a cup of

coffee in the NHL.  At this point, we don't know how Hogs' career will go.

 

You are comparing a 26yr old to a 22yr old.  I was pointing out that Hogs has had more success so far, then

Garland at the same age.  I have no idea what Hogs' game will be like in 4 years.

 

I wasn't suggesting that the team hold onto Hogs if he isn't ready for the NHL.  As I said before, I

prefer Garland's game over Hogs', so if it comes down to which one stays, it would be Conor for me.

I don't see Hogs as a fit for an 'all in for the playoff next year' team, but would probably do well

on a team that is still developing.

 

When we see the lineup next season, there's a good chance that neither player will be on it.

That's a fair statement when the players are drafted. The 2nd rounder is more likely to make it than the 5th rounder when drafted. But does that mean anything 3 or 4 or 5 years later? Is the 2nd rounder more likely or more valuable at that point? That initial "more likely" becomes rather meaningless as time passes. A 5th rounder can pass the 2nd rounder on the depth chart as time passes. You don't assign roster spots by draft position. That's decided by performance. This why I couldn't understand you bringing it up. Draft position becomes meaningless if you haven't made the NHL by the time you're waiver elligible.

 

I do agree, at this point, I'd take Garland over Hogs. Although I don't have a problem with moving Garland either if it improves the team or somebody surpasses him. I'm all about the best players for the roles on the team regardless of their draft position or how we acruired them. 

[Gawdzukes]

This guy is a bum. Hasn't impressed me at all so far.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by Gawdzukes

[jyu]

 

On 3/6/2023 at 6:39 PM, Baggins said:

Juolevi drafted 5th overall, Bieksa drafted 5th round

Juolevi at 19 played SM-Liigga, Bieksa 22 played college

Juolevi at 21 played in the NHL, Bieksa at 24 played his first season

 

When Juolevi became waiver elligible would you have kept him over a 26 yr old Bieksa because of the above?

Juolevi didn't show any promise that he can make the NHL full time by the time he was waiver eligible and yet, OJ was given one more chance at the training camp to make it and failed. Bieksa was cap efficient player playing on a playoff team. Comparing the two isn't very convincing although I do get your point.

 

The situation with Hoglander is that he has 140 NHL games under his belt and made the team out of camp in each of the previous two seasons. There is a deficiency in his game for sure but he has 140 NHL games under his belt. That's some promise that wasn't shown by OJ and I think that's what @higgyfanwas talking about -- he is on a decent trajectory to be a full time NHL player for a 2nd round pick: he performed well among men in professional league in Sweden and then NHL games and even in the AHL, he is performing. So he is one step away.

 

OJ on the other hand had too many injuries and did not get on the trajectory towards being an NHLer. He couldn't improve on his D+1 season in the OHL, underwhelmed in the AHL and then went to Finland, which was also just OK. Then came back to the AHL and was hampered by injuries, not able to handle a full season. OJ was never one step away.

 

The concern is that we won't know whether Hogs can or can't make it until the next training camp. And for a player like Hogs who has been on a good trajectory thus far and could be right on the verge, moving on before the training camp as part of a cap dump is not the best route for this team that is in need of a cheap young players to come in and just outperform their contract. He doesn't need to replace Garland's production and perform like a 5 mil player, just a 2-3 mil 3rd line player putting up 20-30 points would be a success.

 

And then there is another aspect of this, which is that Garland might be traded for cap reasons anyways. At which point, we need a replacement player. To me, it boils down to Kravtsov and Hoglander as we don't have money to replace Garland from outside.

 

If the argument is that we can part with Hoglander because we have more NHL ready player in Kravtsov, I would agree. But I like competition and don't like the idea of gifting a roster spot. 

 

 

On 3/6/2023 at 6:39 PM, Baggins said:

 

I get that Hogs is "liked" but that bold part of your post is utterly meaningless. What matters is what they are in the here and now. Hoglander is going to be waiver elligible. That's important. If he not ready to secure a roster spot then it's really important. I've never once said Hogs doesn't have value. If he didn't have any value I wouldn't be the least bit concerned about waivers because he'd likely clear and wouldn't care much if he didn't. It would be nice to hang on to your prospects until there's some real certainly but that's not the reality. Unfortunately prospects come with an expiry date where you can lose them for nothing. 

Oh really?

 

On 3/3/2023 at 10:02 PM, Baggins said:

You seem to think Hoglander has some real value. I doubt you could get the 2nd we spent on him right now. He's had a chance (141 NHL games) and got sent down to the AHL. He's a player that has taken too long to get to where he needs to be. Garland is a pretty good NHL player. I don't understand how you would prefer to move positive value over negative value with a maybe, just maybe, one day player to create cap space. You get cap space but it doesn't improve the team when keeping that negative value player. Plus we may just lose Hogs to waivers anyway.

I take this to mean that you think he has some value but not real value so a fake value? 

 

Edited March 9, 2023 by jyu

[Dannydog]

Has there been any information on when he’d be playing his first game for us?

[aliboy]

1 hour ago, Dannydog said:

Has there been any information on when he’d be playing his first game for us?

My understanding is around the 16th of March.

 

If you scroll down and find him here it says March 18th.

https://puckpedia.com/injuries

Edited March 9, 2023 by aliboy

[Alflives]

1 hour ago, Dannydog said:

Has there been any information on when he’d be playing his first game for us?

Detroit has sure gone into the tank without him. Looks like Slo Mo was expected to take on Hronek’s minutes and failed miserably. No wonder Yzerboy is plsnnning out 5 more years of doing the tamkeroo. We got his best D man! And all we had to pay, in a Rohan about way, was fat wallet. We won! 

[Boudrias]

11 hours ago, Alflives said:

Detroit has sure gone into the tank without him. Looks like Slo Mo was expected to take on Hronek’s minutes and failed miserably. No wonder Yzerboy is plsnnning out 5 more years of doing the tamkeroo. We got his best D man! And all we had to pay, in a Rohan about way, was fat wallet. We won! 

What did we get Alf. Haven’t seen him play. How much longer is he out? Is he even practicing?

[Alflives]

46 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

What did we get Alf. Haven’t seen him play. How much longer is he out? Is he even practicing?

Tocchet said in his post game presser (last night) that Hronek is here and working out every day.  Said he’s still week to week.

Hronek will carry OEL on our second pairing. We will sign Livingston to play with Hughes. Myers on the bottom pair with Wolanen. That’s a very good group. Elite puck movers in our top two pairs and Wolanen is pretty good too. Myers and OEL can just focus on the defensive parts of the game. 

[73 Percent]

37 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Tocchet said in his post game presser (last night) that Hronek is here and working out every day.  Said he’s still week to week.

Hronek will carry OEL on our second pairing. We will sign Livingston to play with Hughes. Myers on the bottom pair with Wolanen. That’s a very good group. Elite puck movers in our top two pairs and Wolanen is pretty good too. Myers and OEL can just focus on the defensive parts of the game. 

You represent everything I hate in a Leafs fan.

[Alflives]

9 minutes ago, 73 Percent said:

You represent everything I hate in a Leafs fan.