NHL appears to be considering Atlanta and Houston for expansion

[DeNiro]

10 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

Yeah, but Texas has a population of roughly 31.1M whereas Alberta has one of roughly 4.3M. 

 

If the idea is to appeal to individuals who aren't already hockey fans Texas is a good gamble. 

And Georgia’s population is more than twice that of Alberta. Does that mean Atlanta is a good gamble even though it’s failed twice?

 

It’s not always about population. The Stars have been there long enough that they’ve drawn most of the fans they’re gonna draw. 

[DeNiro]

13 minutes ago, brownky said:

Define "hockey market".

 

If you mean "Canada and states touching Canada" then no.

 

But Carolina and Tampa are second to Montreal in league attendance this year.

 

On that note, Dallas is ahead of BOTH Calgary AND Edmonton. Albertan hockey markets.

 

https://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendance/att_graph_season.php?lid=NHL1927&sid=2023

 

If you go back a few years, Dallas is at or near the top of attendance of most years. Even when they're terrible.

That’s because the American Airlines Center holds more not because they’re a better hockey market.

 

Let’s compare those numbers when the Stars go into a rebuild or are consistently not making the playoffs. That’s the true test of a hockey market.

[Coconuts]

14 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

And Georgia’s population is more than twice that of Alberta. Does that mean Atlanta is a good gamble even though it’s failed twice?

 

It’s not always about population. The Stars have been there long enough that they’ve drawn most of the fans they’re gonna draw. 

Not always about population but it's likely a factor the NHL looks at. There's a lot of money in Texas, likely wouldn't be too difficult to find a willing ownership group. 

 

I do think that the potential of attracting fans who aren't already hockey fans is part of what draws the NHL to markets. New fans are new revenue streams, and the NHL is in the business of trying to make money. They could try worse areas. You know it's likely only a matter of time before the league expands further. 

 

And hard to say, they obviously thought enough of Atlanta to give it a second chance in the first place. 

[brownky]

37 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

That’s because the American Airlines Center holds more not because they’re a better hockey market.

 

Let’s compare those numbers when the Stars go into a rebuild or are consistently not making the playoffs. That’s the true test of a hockey market.

Alright, since you're clearly talking out your ass and I've busted you on it, just put the goalposts where they'll sit rather than continuously move them. But I'll address the current argument too, because why not.

 

By your current extremely vague "hockey market" metric, the Habs, Leafs, Rangers are a hockey market and... that's about it. Chicago clearly isn't, they're down 5k fans from their building capacity 'because they're losing'. Not a hockey market by that "percentage of sell out" metric, so pull the team. Detroit was down 7k last year and is down ~5k this year off how many their building CAN hold, better pull that team too. Put it in Saskatoon, they'd sell out every night. Ignoring that they're still pulling more fans than 60% of the league anyway.

 

The more 'bodies' you have in an area the more chance you have of the diehards  who stick around - IF they have a reason to give a shit, which is where good ownership and management come in. When you have a building 'that holds more' and as a result you're still drawing more people than "hockey markets" even with 5k empty seats because there are simply more people to draw FROM, then your definition goes out the window. In 16/17, Dallas was pretty shit (the last time they were even sub.500) and still drew 18,100 Fans - more fans than the Rangers, Bruins, Ottawa (lol), Winnipeg, Colorado (by 4000 fans, fairweather, should have pulled that team then too because they were losing) and a bunch of others.

 

And that *entirely* ignores the commercial enterprises in those areas. The Houston metro region alone has more people than ALL of BC. And Calgary. Combined.

 

So put them goalposts in the ground somewhere.

[DeNiro]

2 minutes ago, brownky said:

Alright, since you're clearly talking out your ass and I've busted you on it, just put the goalposts where they'll sit rather than continuously move them. But I'll address the current argument too, because why not.

 

By your current extremely vague "hockey market" metric, the Habs, Leafs, Rangers are a hockey market and... that's about it. Chicago clearly isn't, they're down 5k fans from their building capacity 'because they're losing'. Not a hockey market by that "percentage of sell out" metric, so pull the team. Detroit was down 7k last year and is down ~5k this year off how many their building CAN hold, better pull that team too. Put it in Saskatoon, they'd sell out every night. Ignoring that they're still pulling more fans than 60% of the league anyway.

 

The more 'bodies' you have in an area the more chance you have of the diehards  who stick around - IF they have a reason to give a shit, which is where good ownership and management come in. When you have a building 'that holds more' and as a result you're still drawing more people than "hockey markets" even with 5k empty seats because there are simply more people to draw FROM, then your definition goes out the window. In 16/17, Dallas was pretty shit (the last time they were even sub.500) and still drew 18,100 Fans - more fans than the Rangers, Bruins, Ottawa (lol), Winnipeg, Colorado (by 4000 fans, fairweather, should have pulled that team then too because they were losing) and a bunch of others.

 

And that *entirely* ignores the commercial enterprises in those areas. The Houston metro region alone has more people than ALL of BC. And Calgary. Combined.

 

So put them goalposts in the ground somewhere.

[DeNiro]

59 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

Not always about population but it's likely a factor the NHL looks at. There's a lot of money in Texas, likely wouldn't be too difficult to find a willing ownership group. 

 

I do think that the potential of attracting fans who aren't already hockey fans is part of what draws the NHL to markets. New fans are new revenue streams, and the NHL is in the business of trying to make money. They could try worse areas. You know it's likely only a matter of time before the league expands further. 

 

And hard to say, they obviously thought enough of Atlanta to give it a second chance in the first place. 

Fair points and thank you for the civil discourse. You’re one of my favourite posters on here because of that.

 

Some other people could learn from that but for now they’ll live in my ignored list.
 

Don’t have time for people who immediately jump to petty insults cause you disagree with them. I’ve been on here too long to deal with the squawking.

[Coconuts]

18 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

Fair points and thank you for the civil discourse. You’re one of my favourite posters on here because of that.

 

Some other people could learn from that but for now they’ll live in my ignored list.
 

Don’t have time for people who immediately jump to petty insults cause you disagree with them. I’ve been on here too long to deal with the squawking.

I try to, I don't always succeed, but a lot of us can get kinda heated around here. Lot of strong opinions floating around. 

 

More on topic though, new revenue streams are part of what I think hurts Quebec's chances of getting a team. Putting a team there likely doesn't have the revenue of a currently untapped market because hockey fans in Quebec likely already have an NHL team they follow imo. Maybe not the Habs, they were their biggest rivals if I'm not mistaken, but surely some of them have a team. Some of those Quebec dollars are probably already being spent. Putting a team in Quebec would likely attract some new fans, maybe younger generations, but probably not on the same scale as something like Houston or even Atlanta imo. 

 

Atlanta had a hard time clawing it's way up to being competitive, they only made the playoffs once throughout their entire existence and they were swept. I reckon the NHL's approach to going back to Atlanta would involve a favourable expansion draft akin to what Vegas and Seattle saw, potentially even moreso. Same likely goes for Houston. 

 

If the NHL expands, and I think it's probably inevitable, they'll want teams to be competitive sooner than later the way Vegas was and Seattle's showing to be, it helps solidify fan support but also the revenue stream itself. 

Edited March 6, 2023 by Coconuts

[Harold Drunken]

If your a southern American city with multiple other larger sports franchises to compete with, Gary Bettman wants to be in you. 

 

 

[Harold Drunken]

4 hours ago, Coconuts said:

Yup, tough to build a fanbase when the product is forever mediocre. It's why you've gotta give markets like Columbus credit considering how long they've been mediocre. 

 

It's also why it's nice to see Seattle having the success they're having in season two. 

 

Giving future expansion teams favourable conditions seems like a no brainer if the idea is to grow the game and solidify a franchise. 

Vegas and Seattle sure broke the mold. I remember when expansion teams used to be bad for a decade before even sniffing the playoffs!

[Harold Drunken]

23 hours ago, Dazzle said:

This is a pretty false narrative. Atlanta did have fans. However, their mismanagement with their teams understandably drove those fans away when you have a poor product. It's the same thing with Arizona. You put together a successful team and you'll have fans that want to watch the game. You put a poor product out, is it really a surprise that people don't want to pay for stuff?

Good point. 

Edited March 6, 2023 by Harold Drunken

[Coconuts]

1 hour ago, Harold Drunken said:

Vegas and Seattle sure broke the mold. I remember when expansion teams used to be bad for a decade before even sniffing the playoffs!

For sure. Teams were probably cheaper then though I'm assuming, even if you factors inflation and yadda yadda. Vegas was the first expansion team to cost and ownership group more than 100M. But hey, I'm just guessing on the inflation and currency bits. 

 

Giving the higher investment cost it makes sense potential ownership groups would want more favourable conditions than what existed even back in 2000. 

 

http://www.puckreport.com/2009/05/nhl-expansion.html

Edited March 6, 2023 by Coconuts

[McBackup]

And people thought the league's love of Phoenix was bad. They've at least kept the team (by the skin of their teeth and with heavy league intervention, but its still there). But Atlanta failed twice in living memory and they still want to go back.

[brownky]

3 hours ago, DeNiro said:

Fair points and thank you for the civil discourse. You’re one of my favourite posters on here because of that.

 

Some other people could learn from that but for now they’ll live in my ignored list.
 

Don’t have time for people who immediately jump to petty insults cause you disagree with them. I’ve been on here too long to deal with the squawking.

Edit: not worth it. Delete.

Edited March 7, 2023 by brownky

[brownky]

Edit... nevermind, Not worth it. Delete. 

Edited March 7, 2023 by brownky

[JeremyCuddles]

Just move the Yotes to Houston. Tired of that franchise existing.

 

[IBatch]

Expansion.  Good grief.   Leagues waited 3 decades to catch up ... almost four really.    Half the teams are icing half an AHL lineup still as is.   Greed.   Doesn't win cups.    There are enough teams in the NHL as is.   Retraction would be better for the sport, and especially the fans.   Who wants to win a cup every 40 or so years in Canada?   Already at a serious disadvantage.   Tax wise.     Alberta fans at least don't  have high provincial taxes.   But even still pay 10% more than a ton of US teams.   They better stop this.    Too many teams languish outside looking in as it is.    Or at least bring back the play-ins.  

Edited March 7, 2023 by IBatch

[cripplereh]

Put the coyotes in one spot.

 

Should make the divisions north and south giving the Canadian teams a better chance at a cup.

[Maginator]

Jesus why on earth is Quebec not being considered. NHL is a joke.

[cripplereh]

More Canadian teams are needed.

 

The states are hit and miss.

 

We know in Canada games will be sold out.

 

 

Bettyman needs to rethink the NHL team situation.

[MaxVerstappen33]

On 3/4/2023 at 2:03 PM, Pears said:

 

It needs to be Quebec City. Why should Atlanta get a third chance before QC even gets a second?

The wise guys around hockey all have their reasons why Quebec wouldn't work. And they are all the exact same reasons that were said about Winnipeg until a week before the team moved back there.

 

Canadian cities are just places to bail out failed Bettman pet projects in the US.