[Signing] Maple Leafs re-sign Auston Matthews

[IBatch]

On 8/23/2023 at 9:33 PM, hammertime said:

I agree 10 short 12 long. Both make sense depending on circumstance. Maybe they go 11 mid. 

Problem is, you pay more for short contracts, then you do for long term ones when they get to UFA years especially.   If you want to lower the AVV, then you sign a long term deal, and often front load the contract a lot.    Think Luongo, if his deal was 3-4 years less, as it should have been, he'd of made  couple more million per year.   That's why Mathews is making what he got just now.   If he signed an 8 year deal,  at least a million less.   Also took a risk himself, but the way he doesn't engage physically in the playoffs especially, should keep him injury free for another boffo deal.   He's the modern day Keith Tckchuk, was paid huge money without winning anything other than in 1996 against Canada. 

[IBatch]

On 8/25/2023 at 1:07 AM, rekker said:

I do like the idea of shorter contracts for sure. This eight year stuff is crap. 

The contracts used to be, way way back in the day, one year at a time.  Eventually if you were a superstar (Howe, Makita, Hull etc) maybe you'd get a 3 year deal.   Know things were too far in the owners favour.    And the pendulum needed to swing the other way, didn't take long before it needed to swing back before the owners went broke, maybe 10 years of salary escalations.    Looking back, shorter deals used to be the norm.   Bridge and then another 3 year deal or maybe a 5 year deal.    Problem with going back to that is those shorter deals cost more for blue chip guys.     Think the league would be much better off, as would the NHLPA (way less escrow for non productive, bought out players on long term deals coming off their paycheques) taking one year off max term deals.   Or at least make a cut off date, say 35, after that one year deals only.    So a 30 year old, could only get a five year deal and so on.   The system needs more carrot for established players too.   Seems like second contracts now get paid like 3rd deals too often as well.   I'd be in favour of an RFA cap.   No way should a kid who's had 1-3 years under his belt, get an 8 year deal at or close to current UFA market rates.   More carrot.   Burke was tirading about this in the 2000's ... it happened, a ton of guys get paid a lot more then they should, on second contracts now.  

 

Edit:  For sure the best players should get paid the most.    The byproduct of paying these kids this young, at close to UFA or at times more then that (Brock for example), or paying for "potential", means lunch pail journeyman get squeezed, their bank accounts.   Look at Toffoli for example.    Schenn, and a bunch of older guys who are way better options then AHL fillers (almost every roster has one or two or three of them), take peanuts just to keep playing,  and more often then ever, teams rush their prospects and put them in positions they aren't ready for "to balance the books".  

 

Used to be 20-22 was the norm for aseasoning.   Call-ups here and there, eventually win a spot over, say an aging vet.   It lowers the overall product level.     I'm glad that there is no cap limit in the playoffs, and GMs have wised up to using that angle.   For sure they could improve on the existing system, where 20% of the players make 80% of the dough. 

Edited August 26, 2023 by IBatch

[IBatch]

As for AM deal.   It was fair deal.   That's about 11 in TB or Florida, or Vegas, or Seattle, or Dallas.  11.5 in COL, PIT, CAR and a bunch of other states.    Short deals like that only buying the prime years?   He's for sure a legit top five center.   At the top of the pile for goals scored in the  NHL since he arrived.   And he's a center.   Whose game is actually rounding out finally too.     IF we had him instead,  we'd be comparing him to Bure right now, and debating whom was/is the best Canuck all-time, let's be honest.    Only Ovi and Stamkos scored more at the same age, and it was only by a few goals for Ovi, and 13 or so from Stamkos, for all existing players. 

 

EP isn't there yet.  One full season isn't enough.    Mathews will be miles ahead at the same age statistically, maybe Boblaw can show EPs current WAR for us.    After his best season.     Miller got one less point then EP did the year before and basically put the team on his back while doing so, EP was terrible at the start, and has struggled with things physically (getting bumped easily off the puck) up until last season.    

 

Someone mentioned Barkov.   I do think he's EPs best comp.   Barkov is definitely better at some things, EP at others but he's also the best comp right now.  

[stawns]

9 hours ago, MaxVerstappen33 said:

How is he overpaid ?  Any 60 goal scoring star his age on a 4 year deal would get this kind of cap hit. 

 

He is fairly paid. Making wisecracks about him because he's on a team you hate and hasn't won the cup has nothing to do with what he is worth. Almost any team in the league would take him for 4 years at this money.

He's not even the best player on his team

[Gurn]

7 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Problem is he's not a 60-goal scorer anymore.  He's a 40-goal scorer living off a career year and using that to get paid even more than McDavid.  If he never breaks 40 goals ever again then he will have one of the worst contracts in the NHL...

Like the Miller deal

signed a deal, making him the  team highest cap hit player,  while having a 99 point season, and regressed to 82 points.

[rekker]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

The contracts used to be, way way back in the day, one year at a time.  Eventually if you were a superstar (Howe, Makita, Hull etc) maybe you'd get a 3 year deal.   Know things were too far in the owners favour.    And the pendulum needed to swing the other way, didn't take long before it needed to swing back before the owners went broke, maybe 10 years of salary escalations.    Looking back, shorter deals used to be the norm.   Bridge and then another 3 year deal or maybe a 5 year deal.    Problem with going back to that is those shorter deals cost more for blue chip guys.     Think the league would be much better off, as would the NHLPA (way less escrow for non productive, bought out players on long term deals coming off their paycheques) taking one year off max term deals.   Or at least make a cut off date, say 35, after that one year deals only.    So a 30 year old, could only get a five year deal and so on.   The system needs more carrot for established players too.   Seems like second contracts now get paid like 3rd deals too often as well.   I'd be in favour of an RFA cap.   No way should a kid who's had 1-3 years under his belt, get an 8 year deal at or close to current UFA market rates.   More carrot.   Burke was tirading about this in the 2000's ... it happened, a ton of guys get paid a lot more then they should, on second contracts now.  

 

Edit:  For sure the best players should get paid the most.    The byproduct of paying these kids this young, at close to UFA or at times more then that (Brock for example), or paying for "potential", means lunch pail journeyman get squeezed, their bank accounts.   Look at Toffoli for example.    Schenn, and a bunch of older guys who are way better options then AHL fillers (almost every roster has one or two or three of them), take peanuts just to keep playing,  and more often then ever, teams rush their prospects and put them in positions they aren't ready for "to balance the books".  

 

Used to be 20-22 was the norm for aseasoning.   Call-ups here and there, eventually win a spot over, say an aging vet.   It lowers the overall product level.     I'm glad that there is no cap limit in the playoffs, and GMs have wised up to using that angle.   For sure they could improve on the existing system, where 20% of the players make 80% of the dough. 

So much of what you've said is bang on. Agreed. 

[Elias Pettersson]

3 hours ago, IBatch said:

As for AM deal.   It was fair deal.   That's about 11 in TB or Florida, or Vegas, or Seattle, or Dallas.  11.5 in COL, PIT, CAR and a bunch of other states.    Short deals like that only buying the prime years?   He's for sure a legit top five center.   At the top of the pile for goals scored in the  NHL since he arrived.   And he's a center.   Whose game is actually rounding out finally too.     IF we had him instead,  we'd be comparing him to Bure right now, and debating whom was/is the best Canuck all-time, let's be honest.    Only Ovi and Stamkos scored more at the same age, and it was only by a few goals for Ovi, and 13 or so from Stamkos, for all existing players. 

 

EP isn't there yet.  One full season isn't enough.    Mathews will be miles ahead at the same age statistically, maybe Boblaw can show EPs current WAR for us.    After his best season.     Miller got one less point then EP did the year before and basically put the team on his back while doing so, EP was terrible at the start, and has struggled with things physically (getting bumped easily off the puck) up until last season.    

 

Someone mentioned Barkov.   I do think he's EPs best comp.   Barkov is definitely better at some things, EP at others but he's also the best comp right now.  

 

6 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Barkov is probably the best comparable to Petey in the entire NHL.  Barkov signed his contract on October 8, 2021.  So almost two years ago.  So, his $10 million deal took up 12% of the cap.  If Petey signs an extension at $10.5 million then he will also take up 12% of the cap next season.  Problem is Barkov plays in Florida so Barkov's $10 million is the equivalent of $11.5 million in Vancouver.  Add the extra $500,000 and you are at $12 million AAV with Petey. Which is most likely what he is looking for on an 8-year deal.

 

Most likely, Petey signs a 4-year deal similar to Matthews.  That is my prediction.  If we could get him at 10x4 or even 10.5x4 that might be the best compromise as it allows us a little more flexibility with the cap and the 4 years puts Petey's contract expiring one year after Hughes.  So, if Hughes re-signs with us then most likely Petey follows.  if not, we probably lose both players and our rebuild starts...

 

[Alflives]

55 minutes ago, Gurn said:

Like the Miller deal

signed a deal, making him the  team highest cap hit player,  while having a 99 point season, and regressed to 82 points.

Your post makes no sense. A player, like Miller, who produces at a ppg, plays 2C, and is big, physical, smart, high compete, a leader, and very hard to play against is worth more than 8 per. Miller is on a team friendly contract. Hopefully Petey extends for a team friendly cap allocation too. 
Allvin is a friggin’ genius! He is leading a management group that is fantastic. Very similar to the great Gillis group. We will be at the top of the league. 

[Gurn]

1 minute ago, Alflives said:

Your post makes no sense. A player, like Miller, who produces at a ppg, plays 2C, and is big, physical, smart, high compete, a leader, and very hard to play against is worth more than 8 per. Miller is on a team friendly contract. Hopefully Petey extends for a team friendly cap allocation too. 
Allvin is a friggin’ genius! He is leading a management group that is fantastic. Very similar to the great Gillis group. We will be at the top of the league. 

Guy signs a big contract, and his points total plunges.

Pretending that only last year matters means Miller's deal was bad, just as signing A.M to a max hit deal, after a bad year  is a bad deal.

 

Remember- only last season matters- .

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, Gurn said:

Guy signs a big contract, and his points total plunges.

Pretending that only last year matters means Miller's deal was bad, just as signing A.M to a max hit deal, after a bad year  is a bad deal.

 

Remember- only last season matters- .

Good try. Miller is one of the elite players in the league. His cap allocation is more than 5 per less than Matthews. And Mathew’s deal is a good one. Miller is a steal at 8 per. 
Accept the facts and bow and kneel to Alf’s empties. 

[Gurn]

1 minute ago, Alflives said:

Good try. Miller is one of the elite players in the league. His cap allocation is more than 5 per less than Matthews. And Mathew’s deal is a good one. Miller is a steal at 8 per. 
Accept the facts and bow and kneel to Alf’s empties. 

Only last year matters- I learned that from a poster in this thread.

So Miller's deal sucks, as he signed for big money, and his point totals crashed.

Only last season matters.

[Guest]

44 minutes ago, Gurn said:

Only last year matters- I learned that from a poster in this thread.

So Miller's deal sucks, as he signed for big money, and his point totals crashed.

Only last season matters.

If we get JT getting 80 points in a season for the next 4 years, we take that deal and run.  

 

We're gonna see a lot of 60 point guys starting to get 8 mil/year next summer and that's not even counting JT's physical play and leadership. 

 

Not sure who said that only last season counts, but it's not entirely accurate in the negotiations. 

 

Btw whoever mentioned Barkov as a comparable for Petey was bang on. I do see Pastrnak as a ceiling so 11 mil/year times 8 years is a no-brainer if he wants to commit for that long. 

[grandmaster]

1 hour ago, Gurn said:

Only last year matters- I learned that from a poster in this thread.

So Miller's deal sucks, as he signed for big money, and his point totals crashed.

Only last season matters.

Ur obviously joking 

[canucklehead44]

2 hours ago, Alflives said:

Your post makes no sense. A player, like Miller, who produces at a ppg, plays 2C, and is big, physical, smart, high compete, a leader, and very hard to play against is worth more than 8 per. Miller is on a team friendly contract. Hopefully Petey extends for a team friendly cap allocation too. 
Allvin is a friggin’ genius! He is leading a management group that is fantastic. Very similar to the great Gillis group. We will be at the top of the league. 

This. The whole Miller got $8M for a 99 point season narrative is false. Johansen got 8 million and his best season was 71 points. Hertl also career high 71 points and $8.14M.

 

For 99 points and the intangibles you mentioned Miller would have gotten around 11. 8 million for 82 points is still relatively good value. I just hope he can average over 60 per season over the length of the contract. 

[cripplereh]

9 hours ago, dougieL said:

Okay so then you concede that bringing his team a Cup is not the only measure of what that player should be paid...

Well yes and for the only other reason that matters.Being the best in the world you have to keep the player happy.

 

Mathews hasn't done anything close to McDavid if they both had contracts same year Mathews would get less.

 

Oil have done better then the Leafs but they also have two players better then the leafs which means less money to fill out the roster with stars.

 

So say what you will but my point is Mathews just sank his team moving forward.

 

Maybe if they traded a couple players and got a better goalie , same with the oil they might get to a cup.The way the cap is you need to better balance a team then pay many a high price.

 

 

That is what I think this team has finally learned.

.

 

 

[rekker]

39 minutes ago, cripplereh said:

Mathews hasn't done anything close to McDavid if they both had contracts same year Mathews would get less.

 

Yip. The comparables are laffable. I'm not saying AM isn't good at hockey,  just have been saying he's overrated and way more one dimensional than many think. Another season like last year for AM and look out, the contract may look silly. Oh wait though, AM's numbers are down because he's working on his defensive game, lol. I remember that theory well enough. 

[IBatch]

4 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

4 hours ago, Gurn said:

Only last year matters- I learned that from a poster in this thread.

So Miller's deal sucks, as he signed for big money, and his point totals crashed.

Only last season matters.

 

Can't tell if you're serious.   Of all the big money deals signed last off season, Millers turned out right at or near the top for production.   Matches up with even MT's.   If you're getting 80 points, from a UFA at 8 you're kicking butt.   Same way you're kicking butt for getting 100 from a 10 million dollar UFA.   Millers starting cap percentage is more than reasonable.   Feel there is a contingent that so desperately wanted him traded, that they just won't let it go.   Or we could have Horvat at 8.5 and his 50-55 points instead.   Or Kadri.   Or Huberdeau.  Or whomever.    Miller actually earned his deal.   That's the thing many seem to dismiss.   Wasn't like he was paid the huge bucks like Brock, EP, QHs, and a bazillion other guys on their second deals based on potential.    And unlike Tavares who was criminally underpaid his second contract compared to todays standards, he didn't get the 9-10 that was been floated as "fair" after his 99 point season, or the huge massive payday Tavares got and actually earned the right to get either. 

 

Edit: Above a reply to Gurn.   EP, like minds again! 

Edited August 26, 2023 by IBatch

[Gurn]

But only last year matters.

no other context allowed.

It has been decreed, so it must be.

[IBatch]

35 minutes ago, rekker said:

Yip. The comparables are laffable. I'm not saying AM isn't good at hockey,  just have been saying he's overrated and way more one dimensional than many think. Another season like last year for AM and look out, the contract may look silly. Oh wait though, AM's numbers are down because he's working on his defensive game, lol. I remember that theory well enough. 

Watching him, he's become a better two way player.   Not that he's a force, but he's also not bad either.   Seems like his game is rounding out.    The only issue they should have, is his no show come the post season, on the offensive side.   Given he's been paid to be the guy, be the guy.   I'd rank Draisaitl ahead of him.  Both aren't super fast.    If that's your preference then McDavid and McKinnon.   After that who is a better center?   Stamkos plays the wing now... And Crosby is becoming a mortal. 

Edited August 26, 2023 by IBatch

[IBatch]

5 minutes ago, Gurn said:

But only last year matters.

no other context allowed.

It has been decreed, so it must be.

That I did get!