A Fair Criticism of Jim Benning

[18W-40C-6W]

I will start by saying I am a JB fan. I am sure this thread will attract a lot of the JB haters but amongst those of us who appreciate what he’s done for the franchise given what he started with, I do think we need to address a major issue / weakness of his -signing and trading.

 

JB came in, had no prospects, had a team with the Twins that the powers that be felt were owed a chance to keep trying to win a cup, irrespective of their lineup. This was

 a set of handcuffs for Jim and we don’t know if it was ownership, him, or just simply that you can’t trade the twins and loyalty means something still. Regardless of the reason, not the point of this thread, it made the rebuild harder. 

 

Once he he started to restock, he knew he had to bring in some younger but not rookie players to help avoid edmontonitis. He brought in players like Baer, Granlund, Sutter, etc. Some worked some didn’t but the strategy to insulate what little talent we had has actually worked. Now that some of our young players are getting up to speed, the gap fillers are becoming expendable. This is a good sign. 

 

He has done a marvellous job drafting and has put together one of the best young prospect pools in the game. As a Canuck fan for 30 years, this young group is the best I’ve ever seen. He deserves credit for this, especially given what he started with and his constraints when he came in. 

 

Now where I think JB really hasn’t done well and where we could use some senior oversight (maybe a Brian Burke) is with signings and trades. Why I bring this up, given the recent buyout, talk of ridding Erickson, I started to think of his track record here. It really is weak. It’s not killing us, but it hasn’t helped us, and maybe marginally hurt us.

 

You simply have to look at his history of jettisoning players he’s traded for, or buying them out, it’s not good. I know you’ll never hit on all your moves, but his % is not good in this area. I am sure to miss a few, and I’m sure I’ll invite the JB haters to have a hey day here but that’s not the intent, it’s to have people share their thoughts on this issue - those who are objective that is.

 

sub par trades and signings (again may miss some)

 

Oy Vey! 

Erickson 

Gudbranson (the pick is the bigger issue )

Spooner (Although I guess that’s a dead weight trade for Gagner)

Gagner

Schaller

Forsling (not that he’s great but still better than Clandenning)

Prust (had to move Kassian but throwing in a pick?) 

 

now here’s a good article that is balanced on the issue and shows most of his deals. 

https://thecanuckway.com/2017/06/16/canucks-jim-benning-trade-history/

 

While the article says he hasn’t really hurt the team, losing picks has and more importantly he hasn’t made deals other than Baer that made any major difference. 

 

When trading the purpose is to improve the team, same with signings. What JB has shown is this is not an area of strength and we really should have someone else making those deals imho. 

 

Alternatively, maybe it’s as simple as a pro scouting issue and whomever is doing that job, needs to be replaced. We’re simply not getting value in our trades and signings  to warrant many of the moves it seems. 

 

 

Thoughts?

Edited June 30, 2019 by 18W-40C-6W

[RowdyCanuck]

I agree 100% adding Burkie would be a great move.....in my books...Burkie's problem he couldn't find a goalie well Jim has couple real gems in the system...

I like Jim but like you said his ufa and trades arnt the best and I don't think he had a good role model in Boston.....

Burkie could teach him a lot. I just see Jim as a great AGM not the main guy....right now.

The draft has saved his job and is the main reason why I like Jim but some of the moves I get place holders and trying to fill in the rosters age gap but I think he needs a seasoned vet like Burke to help him out.....

Edited June 30, 2019 by RowdyCanuck

[Tomatoes11]

Wait. Now you agree that he pisses away value like we piss away beer? Why were you arguing it in the other threads where he got too much credit?

 

There’s nothing more egregious than pissing away value as a manager and you are somehow saying he can piss away value and still be a good GM? Sorry, but those two things are mutually exclusive. If he can’t grasp value, he is a bad GM period.

[RowdyCanuck]

3 minutes ago, Tomatoes11 said:

Wait. Now you agree that he pisses away value like we piss away beer? Why were you arguing it in the other threads where he got too much credit?

 

There’s nothing more egregious than pissing away value as a manager and you are somehow saying he can piss away value and still be a good GM? Sorry, but those two things are mutually exclusive. If he can’t grasp value, he is a bad GM period.

Okay....let me ask you this is Burke a good GM?

[CaptKirk888]

4 minutes ago, Tomatoes11 said:

Wait. Now you agree that he pisses away value like we piss away beer? Why were you arguing it in the other threads where he got too much credit?

 

There’s nothing more egregious than pissing away value as a manager and you are somehow saying he can piss away value and still be a good GM? Sorry, but those two things are mutually exclusive. If he can’t grasp value, he is a bad GM period.

 

[6string]

                                                     In Benning We Trust!

[appleboy]

35 minutes ago, 18W-40C-6W said:

I will start by saying I am a JB fan. I am sure this thread will attract a lot of the JB haters but amongst those of us who appreciate what he’s done for the franchise given what he started with, I do think we need to address a major issue / weakness of his -signing and trading.

 

JB came in, had no prospects, had a team with the Twins that the powers that be felt were owed a chance to keep trying to win a cup, irrespective of their lineup. This was

 a set of handcuffs for Jim and we don’t know if it was ownership, him, or just simply that you can’t trade the twins and loyalty means something still. Regardless of the reason, not the point of this thread, it made the rebuild harder. 

 

Once he he started to restock, he knew he had to bring in some younger but not rookie players to help avoid edmontonitis. He brought in players like Baer, Granlund, Sutter, etc. Some worked some didn’t but the strategy to insulate what little talent we had has actually worked. Now that some of our young players are getting up to speed, the gap fillers are becoming expendable. This is a good sign. 

 

He has done a marvellous job drafting and has put together one of the best young prospect pools in the game. As a Canuck fan for 30 years, this young group is the best I’ve ever seen. He deserves credit for this, especially given what he started with and his constraints when he came in. 

 

Now where I think JB really hasn’t done well and where we could use some senior oversight (maybe a Brian Burke) is with signings and trades. Why I bring this up, given the recent buyout, talk of ridding Erickson, I started to think of his track record here. It really is weak. It’s not killing us, but it hasn’t helped us, and maybe marginally hurt us.

 

You simply have to look at his history of jettisoning players he’s traded for, or buying them out, it’s not good. I know you’ll never hit on all your moves, but his % is not good in this area. I am sure to miss a few, and I’m sure I’ll invite the JB haters to have a hey day here but that’s not the intent, it’s to have people share their thoughts on this issue - those who are objective that is.

 

sub par trades and signings (again may miss some)

 

Oy Vey! 

Erickson 

Gudbranson (the pick is the bigger issue )

Spooner (Although I guess that’s a dead weight trade for Gagner)

Gagner

Schaller

Forsling (not that he’s great but still better than Clandenning)

Prust (had to move Kassian but throwing in a pick?) 

 

now here’s a good article that is balanced on the issue and shows most of his deals. 

https://thecanuckway.com/2017/06/16/canucks-jim-benning-trade-history/

 

While the article says he hasn’t really hurt the team, losing picks has and more importantly he hasn’t made deals other than Baer that made any major difference. 

 

When trading the purpose is to improve the team, same with signings. What JB has shown is this is not an area of strength and we really should have someone else making those deals imho. 

 

Alternatively, maybe it’s as simple as a pro scouting issue and whomever is doing that job, needs to be replaced. We’re simply not getting value in our trades and signings  to warrant many of the moves it seems. 

 

 

Thoughts?

I would probably be classed as a Benning hater by many on this site. However I think you hit the nail on the head. This is pretty much what some of us so called haters have been saying. 

I think the owners have played a huge role in the decisions that have been made. The one thing that we might not fully agree on is the rebuild. I don't think he has ever done a rebuild . I think he ended up getting some high picks because the team was so bad. This was not planned but happened because of the poor deals that he made.

This is what scares me now. He is beginning to move first round picks. He has some money to spend. This could end up bad.

The man should be drafting and that is all.

[Baggins]

Isn't there already two Benning threads?

[xereau]

Jim has made lots of good moves too.

 

All GM's have a list like this.

So, a fair criticism would entail somehow quantifying all deals, rating moves, and trying somehow to give advanced stats, in comparison to others.

 

And seeing as this doesn't exist, this isn't a fair criticism. Fair enough?

 

 

 

[Wanless]

I wouldnt go as far as saying his trading has been bad. He hasn't had much to trade away.

The pieces he had to move were "Ballard Raymond and a second". First rounders were to draft a new core. Second rounders he gamble with, but being second rounders they're not gonna bring in much beyond over paid vets and underperforming RFAs.

 

Of course his trades aren't going to do much. He basically broke even.

 

I'll mention a few trades that we're good

 

Baertschi for a second

 

Granlund for shinkaruk

 

Dorsett for a third

 

Pearson for Gudbranson (so far so good)

 

JT Miller for conditional first a third and an AHL goalie. (I like this trade, it's exciting I also don't think the value is too much)

 

Bonino, sbisa and a first for Kesler. Yeah a lot of fans think this was a weak return but... even though Bonino wasn't huge for the Canucks he did contribute positively for the Penguins cup win and is still a reliable third line center. And kesler had three good seasons and is now irrelevant. Then there's the first that turned into McCann, this story line is a blemish until Pearson. But imagine how lopsided the deal would have been had Benning picked Pastrnak. Benning would have been god by now.

 

The biggest issue with Benning and his trades is he hasn't had the currency to buy quality. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 30, 2019 by Wanless

[J.I.A.H.N]

1 hour ago, appleboy said:

I would probably be classed as a Benning hater by many on this site. However I think you hit the nail on the head. This is pretty much what some of us so called haters have been saying. 

I think the owners have played a huge role in the decisions that have been made. The one thing that we might not fully agree on is the rebuild. I don't think he has ever done a rebuild . I think he ended up getting some high picks because the team was so bad. This was not planned but happened because of the poor deals that he made.

This is what scares me now. He is beginning to move first round picks. He has some money to spend. This could end up bad.

The man should be drafting and that is all.

Appleboy, I have some thoughts for you

 

#1. You say that the owners have had a huge role in the decisions being made...all of them? The one that went good? The ones that went bad? How do you know which ones? Personally, I would say that Aqualini had a lot to say when Benning first got here, and that is when the crux of the bad moves were made, IMO. I think they still are part of it but to a lesser degree......so I think you need to give Aqualini some of your hate.

 

#2. Regarding the rebuild...they said on many occasions it was a re-tool, much to the chagrin of many posters. But if #1 is true, than it is quite possible that Aqualini, had some large part in deciding it was a re-tool. I think the fans demanded a rebuild, and Linden, Aqualini, and Benning said...."OK, it is a re-build", but the fact was, it wasn't and it wasjust that Benning started hitting on some of his draft picks.

 

IMO, as with everyone, we have strengths and weakness, Benning's strengths are Drafting and the structure for his scouts to succeed in. Hire good people and let them do their job. Aka Brackett and Co. As for trades, who the heck knows who is making what decisions on them. How can you hate Benning for taking orders? 

 

I will say this in your defense, and that is that when his trades miss, they miss big, but again, who is pushing him on them? Now, also in your favor is the fact that Benning has to take some of the credit, good and bad.

 

I do think we are moving too fast with the additions, and I would prefer to let it grow more organically for another year or 2, as I personally think that Hughes and Demko will move us further along the line, as they are great additions to Boeser, Pettersson and Horvat. Juolevi is an unknown, as is Tryamkin, but now with Podkolzin and Hoglander, and the other prospects, we are getting closer and closer.

 

The addition of JT Miller is fine, but I hate like hell giving up a 1st for him. Benning has built great depth in the forward prospect pool, and I wish he would have taken alittle more time to complete the defensive side of the rebuild.

 

In saying all that, if Benning thinks he can complete the re-tool on the fly, over the next 2 years, by drafting Dmen, lateral trades, and UFA signings, then great, How can I argue with that?

 

So, yes, I have some questions, but overall, and looking forward, I am generally happy with where we are, and as it has been pointed out to me, he isn't finished. 

 

 

Edited June 30, 2019 by janisahockeynut

[Shekky]

To be fair you can't really judge the future which is what any GM will do when it comes to trades. It's all about Chemistry between linemates and a good example of this would be Loui Eriksson and the Sedins at the World Cup of Hockey. There line was amazing at the World Cup but it didn't translate very well when playing in an NHL Game. I Wished they had grabbed more 1st round draft picks in previous years I think Benning played it too carefully or more likely wasn't going to be able to get more 1st round draft picks because of all the NTC and NMC's that were handed out from Mike Gillis. Who knows what happens behind those closed doors and we will probably never know. 

 

[Talon71]

I'm just thankful we finally have a group that can draft. 

 

We had a good team for awhile (Naslund,  Linden, Sedins, etc.).

Before that the Canucks had lousy teams with just as bad drafting.  IMO

 

This is the first time I am excited over our prospects. 

 

Benning is not perfect,  but the drafting team he assembled is the best I think the Canucks ever had.

 

The pros outweigh the cons

 

 

[Twilight Sparkle]

2 hours ago, Baggins said:

Isn't there already two Benning threads?

and there's been a thread like this every single year, since the very beginning of CDC. never gets old

[DeNiro]

Like any GM he is open to criticism for moves he makes.

 

However not enough fans take into consideration what he was handed when he started and how far he's turned this franchise around in a fairly short time.

 

He's had to balance icing a competitive team in the present while completely rebuilding the prospect pool. He's made some questionable trades along the way, but he's managed to bring character players in here to mentor the young players while at the same time keeping an eye on the future. It's a fine balance that wouldn't be easy for any GM.

 

All you have to ask is are we better off as a franchise than we were 5 years ago? And I would think most fans would say we absolutely are,

[appleboy]

1 hour ago, janisahockeynut said:

Appleboy, I have some thoughts for you

 

#1. You say that the owners have had a huge role in the decisions being made...all of them? The one that went good? The ones that went bad? How do you know which ones? Personally, I would say that Aqualini had a lot to say when Benning first got here, and that is when the crux of the bad moves were made, IMO. I think they still are part of it but to a lesser degree......so I think you need to give Aqualini some of your hate.

 

#2. Regarding the rebuild...they said on many occasions it was a re-tool, much to the chagrin of many posters. But if #1 is true, than it is quite possible that Aqualini, had some large part in deciding it was a re-tool. I think the fans demanded a rebuild, and Linden, Aqualini, and Benning said...."OK, it is a re-build", but the fact was, it wasn't and it wasjust that Benning started hitting on some of his draft picks.

 

IMO, as with everyone, we have strengths and weakness, Benning's strengths are Drafting and the structure for his scouts to succeed in. Hire good people and let them do their job. Aka Brackett and Co. As for trades, who the heck knows who is making what decisions on them. How can you hate Benning for taking orders? 

 

I will say this in your defense, and that is that when his trades miss, they miss big, but again, who is pushing him on them? Now, also in your favor is the fact that Benning has to take some of the credit, good and bad.

 

I do think we are moving too fast with the additions, and I would prefer to let it grow more organically for another year or 2, as I personally think that Hughes and Demko will move us further along the line, as they are great additions to Boeser, Pettersson and Horvat. Juolevi is an unknown, as is Tryamkin, but now with Podkolzin and Hoglander, and the other prospects, we are getting closer and closer.

 

The addition of JT Miller is fine, but I hate like hell giving up a 1st for him. Benning has built great depth in the forward prospect pool, and I wish he would have taken alittle more time to complete the defensive side of the rebuild.

 

In saying all that, if Benning thinks he can complete the re-tool on the fly, over the next 2 years, by drafting Dmen, lateral trades, and UFA signings, then great, How can I argue with that?

 

So, yes, I have some questions, but overall, and looking forward, I am generally happy with where we are, and as it has been pointed out to me, he isn't finished. 

 

 

Not saying owners micromanage every decision.  What they do is set the overall agenda.  So , let's do a full blown rebuild or we want to try to stay competitive while rebuilding.  Let's build a cup contender or we want to be a playoff in 4 years.

[-AJ-]

I think the idea that he's a bad trader is heavily overstated. I'd say that he's probably an average trader. I think his greatest weakness is free agent signings, so I will agree on that point. His drafting is excellent, his trades are average, and his free agent signings are below average.

[Roger Neilsons Towel]

2 hours ago, Baggins said:

Isn't there already two Benning threads?

Oh there’s way more than that lol

[RRypien37]

I personally feel giving up that 1st round pick for Miller, on a non playoff team, will be the final dagger if they start slow out of the gate. 

[48MPHSlapShot]

31 minutes ago, -AJ- said:

I think the idea that he's a bad trader is heavily overstated. I'd say that he's probably an average trader. I think his greatest weakness is free agent signings, so I will agree on that point. His drafting is excellent, his trades are average, and his free agent signings are below average.

Can we pin this to the top of every Benning thread?