Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW

[Rob_Zepp]

22 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

When did i ever state that?  I never once said Jake has was washed up and had zero potential.  If you're going to talk about someone making claims about them, at least do them the favor by tagging them.  You might want to find a quote where I said he was washed up and not longer had any potential. 

 

You also might want to learn what "cherry picked" stats is.  Seemed to remember me using actual player compatibles while you used the only garbage you could find even if it didn't have any justification in the conclusion you were drawing from it.  . 

 

The number of posts with you comparing AHL stats and such, claiming no progression likely etc. etc. were impressive in both number and relentless nature.   Any response noting where Jake stood with his first round cohort was met with but derision and a lot more of the same comparisons with all sorts of historic players etc.    ONCE, it would be awesome to see you simply agree that all players develop at different rates, that power forwards often take longer and that until a player has developed fully (which ranges for players all the way up to 25 and even older), you cannot draw definitive conclusions let alone compare him to other players in a fair manner.    Just once.   

 

Never did look for garbage, my mantra has been as always he remains in the top 1/2 of his draft cohort (first rounders from that year) in both games played and goals scored and that includes most of last year in AHL where, again, he was given certain things to learn and still you didn't want to hear about that progression but could drum up stats from other AHL players as some sort of way of proving he would never amount to much.

 

Will he finally emerge as a 20 plus goal scorer who wreaks havoc through speedy, relentless and aggressive play?   Who knows...I sure don't BUT the potential remains and the signs are looking good.   Is that so hard to admit?

[Rob_Zepp]

Just now, Where'd Luongo? said:

I was clearly stating that "I" am not being condescending.

...and I was clearly making sure it was all about me.  What part of that don't you get 

[CeeBee51]

3 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said:

 I was seemingly a pretty lone voice at times in Virtanen's corner seeing that his unique package of speed, size, shot and "aggression" would just need some time as it sometimes does for those who play a power forward type of game.  

 

3 hours ago, J.R. said:

Hey now... there's a good few of us who's spent more time than we should have had to, defending the poor kid and preaching patience.

 

moi aussi 

[Rob_Zepp]

39 minutes ago, Toews said:

Which stats were "cherry picked"? I don't remember @ForsbergTheGreat cherry picking any stats. In fact I think your ranking of games played and goals among 2014 first round picks is a better example of "cherry picked" stats.

 

I can only speak for myself but I have always said that he will get praise from me once his play warrants it. I have made predictions regarding his potential with regards to his development thus far. I am willing to adjust my expectations as we see more of him but I am certainly not "doing a 180" because of a preseason performance. I have to see way more of him to be truly convinced enough to upgrade my assessment. I do find his recent play encouraging but that's about it.

 

To bring some more "cherry picked" stats into the discussion, the team that won the preseason trophy last year was the Colorado Avalanche. Jake also started out the year in the AHL scoring 5 goals in ~7 games or so, then during the rest of the year which spanned something like 55+ games he had 4 goals. I want to see consistency out of him before I am willing to conclude that he is a vastly better player than I have been watching the past few years.

 

I want to see him start in the NHL and IMO his play should be assessed in 10 game sample sizes. If he maintains consistency and shows that he truly belongs at this level then he should stay up. If he doesn't and he struggles at some point during the year then I would not be opposed to sending him down to work on his game some more. At this point he has earned a roster spot which is already more than I expected out of him. 

Preseason means very little - the competition is far less intense, the goaltending typically weaker and the things being worked on quite a departure from trying to win.   However, it can be a good indicator on year-on-year progression and he has shown that.  He is no where near a finished product - I still think he needs a few more years of understanding the pro game and think that he won't fully hit his stride until he is 23-25.   He just seems that sort of player who was just far and away better until he wasn't and had to relearn how his natural talent needs to be combined with hard work/learnings.

 

It is not cherry picking to simply compare first round picks from that year - and NHL teams use games played and production all the time as a measure of achievement - in fact, that is how draft slots are ranked (games played).   

 

Anyway, Jake is likely emerging from the wrath of many of those who are impatient beyond logic with young players but perhaps not all.   There is a new and easy target replacement on your team - one who is even easier target given his position.   Have at him!

[Rob_Zepp]

2 minutes ago, CeeBee51 said:

 

moi aussi 

Yes you were.   A few other notables as well.   

[CeeBee51]

3 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Yes you were.   A few other notables as well.   

It all comes down to patience, or lack of it IMHO.  

[ForsbergTheGreat]

Just now, Rob_Zepp said:

The number of posts with you comparing AHL stats and such, claiming no progression likely etc. etc. were impressive in both number and relentless nature.   Any response noting where Jake stood with his first round cohort was met with but derision and a lot more of the same comparisons with all sorts of historic players etc.    ONCE, it would be awesome to see you simply agree that all players develop at different rates, that power forwards often take longer and that until a player has developed fully (which ranges for players all the way up to 25 and even older), you cannot draw definitive conclusions let alone compare him to other players in a fair manner.    Just once.   

 

Powerforwards developing slower has been debunked over and over,it's just not the case.  some players take longer, but so do some skilled players (naslund, baertschi, Sedins), and so do some goalies, and some D.  Powerforwards are no different than any other player. 

 

When someone adds context to blind praise it doesn't mean they were writing the player off, you just got butt hurt over any criticism surrounding the player and just automatically assumed it was people calling him washing up.  People like you get triggers over the simplest things. Like stating Jake developing hasn't been ideal (even JB agreed) but you feel the need spend hours making up claims trying to defend.  Not even Jake would agree with you.  

 

Just now, Rob_Zepp said:

Never did look for garbage, my mantra has been as always he remains in the top 1/2 of his draft cohort (first rounders from that year) in both games played and goals scored and that includes most of last year in AHL where, again, he was given certain things to learn and still you didn't want to hear about that progression but could drum up stats from other AHL players as some sort of way of proving he would never amount to much.

And you're mantra is pointless, as it's not a relevant comparable to for players in different team circumstance. This theory has also been debunked Do you find it completely ironic on how one hand you state prospect need patience but then draw a conclusion based on a prospect being rushed.  Mind boggling...

 

Just now, Rob_Zepp said:

Will he finally emerge as a 20 plus goal scorer who wreaks havoc through speedy, relentless and aggressive play?   Who knows...I sure don't BUT the potential remains and the signs are looking good.   Is that so hard to admit?

Again, maybe if you didn't get so triggered over any type of criticism you'd realize that I never said anything about Jake potential, i never claimed he was going to be a bust.  I did say that I think Hansen and Torres would be a good comparable which id still be ok with today

[Erik Karlsson]

2 hours ago, shad0w4life said:

No it's the whole omg JV is amazing nonsense while calling for Burmistrov to be cut etc. 

Sorry but he's useless without everyone else doing the work. 

 

 JV has done jack squat besides accept gift passes from better players and not learn how to line change...against random players from multiple leagues in preseason, he struggled in the AHL doubt that has changed. 

 

I'd love to be wrong but he's still not ready for NHL from his play. 

Think I lost a few brain cells reading this.

[73 Percent]

4 minutes ago, Erik Karlsson said:

Think I lost a few brain cells reading this.

Yeah you can't fix whatever that guy has lol. Its not even worth responding tbh

[Rob_Zepp]

29 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

Powerforwards developing slower has been debunked over and over,it's just not the case.  some players take longer, but so do some skilled players (naslund, baertschi, Sedins), and so do some goalies, and some D.  Powerforwards are no different than any other player. 

 

When someone adds context to blind praise it doesn't mean they were writing the player off, you just got butt hurt over any criticism surrounding the player and just automatically assumed it was people calling him washing up.  People like you get triggers over the simplest things. Like stating Jake developing hasn't been ideal (even JB agreed) but you feel the need spend hours making up claims trying to defend.  Not even Jake would agree with you.  

 

And you're mantra is pointless, as it's not a relevant comparable to for players in different team circumstance. This theory has also been debunked Do you find it completely ironic on how one hand you state prospect need patience but then draw a conclusion based on a prospect being rushed.  Mind boggling...

 

Again, maybe if you didn't get so triggered over any type of criticism you'd realize that I never said anything about Jake potential, i never claimed he was going to be a bust.  I did say that I think Hansen and Torres would be a good comparable which id still be ok with today

If you say so.    

[Gaudette Celly]

4 hours ago, J.R. said:

Hey now... there's a good few of us who's spent more time than we should have had to, defending the poor kid and preaching patience.

...some of us which after 700 or so pages finally had enough of 5th Line, the frog, and other incessant (obsessed) whingers.  Thanks for babysitting them in the meantime, and Jake improving was of course the best way to shut them up and stop their defecating all over this place.

[shad0w4life]

1 hour ago, Erik Karlsson said:

Think I lost a few brain cells reading this.

Doubt you started with many then. 

 

We shall see when season starts

[Fantomex]

2 hours ago, CeeBee51 said:

It all comes down to patience, or lack of it IMHO.  

THIS.

 

Anyone that said "have some patience" was ridiculed with countless long-winded posts about how he's a disappointment.

[hyper00]

17 hours ago, Fantomex said:

THIS.

 

Anyone that said "have some patience" was ridiculed with countless long-winded posts about how he's a disappointment.

It always felt like we weren't allowed to cheer for Canuck prospects that weren't the "Right pick" I don't care if they bust  (I do of course) I'm cheering for them till the very end. Unfortunately some people have a "We picked the wrong kid so I hope he fails in his dream so I can prove I'm right"

Edited October 3, 2017 by hyper00
Me no English well...

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, hyper00 said:

It always felt like we weren't allowed to cheer for Canuck prospects that weren't the "Right pick" I don't care if they bust  (I do of course) I'm cheering for the to the very end. Unfortunately some people have a "We picked the wrong kid so I hope he fails in his dream so I can prove I'm right"

I don't believe any true Canuck's fan wants Jake, or any of our picks to fail, just to prove a point.  We are finally seeing Jake at weight and fit.  This is the player he is, and it's a good one.

Edited October 3, 2017 by Alflives

[Warhippy]

7 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said:

It seems that way.   As someone who likes the Canucks but isn't all absorbed, I was seemingly a pretty lone voice at times in Virtanen's corner seeing that his unique package of speed, size, shot and "aggression" would just need some time as it sometimes does for those who play a power forward type of game.    I can see if I was more invested in the Canucks that I may have been more critical of him out of the gate and perhaps less patient.

 

Anyway, people have Juolevi to worry about now that Virtanen is seemingly emerging from their disdain 

heyyyyyyyy

 

 

What bout the hippeh

[Warhippy]

6 hours ago, shad0w4life said:

No it's the whole omg JV is amazing nonsense while calling for Burmistrov to be cut etc. 

Sorry but he's useless without everyone else doing the work. 

 

 JV has done jack squat besides accept gift passes from better players and not learn how to line change...against random players from multiple leagues in preseason, he struggled in the AHL doubt that has changed. 

 

I'd love to be wrong but he's still not ready for NHL from his play. 

Hey man.  How do you feel about guys like Ovechkin, Kesler, Kessel or any of the other snipers n the league who cannot create without play makers?

 

Super curious

[N4ZZY]

2 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

Hey man.  How do you feel about guys like Ovechkin, Kesler, Kessel or any of the other snipers n the league who cannot create without play makers?

 

Super curious

haha. seriously, though, Jake has had a good pre-season. solid outings every time he was on the ice. and no, he didn't just accept gift passes from better players, he has created turnovers with his speed, and scored with his wicked shot release. the guy has demonstrated promising signs this pre-season. I guess some fans here don't really want him to succeed. 

 

[Rob_Zepp]

5 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

heyyyyyyyy

 

 

What bout the hippeh

forgot you spoke hockey (kidding).   You were there too - one of those who tried to reason with the cherry picking crowd.   Anyway, nice to be able to come and discuss something as mundane as hockey and prospects as I typically see you on the threads about the real world - I feel so numb about some of the events of the past few years and last night is so senseless...nice to find some place where the most important thing is talking about hockey players.

[Where'd Luongo?]

I picked him last in my fantasy draft.