Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW

[canuckistani]

Just now, Kanukfanatic said:

Yeah...cuz hindsight is....hindsight is.....

 

Come on. Hindsight is stupid with respect to previous years NHL drafts. Many GMs pass over many good players each year.  Silly comment imo.

Again, my comment is directed at Alf, who is crusading the idea that Jake IS the best pick at his spot. We all know thats not true and we all know that even the greatest GM ever - Scotty Bowman- is a young six years old padowan to Jedi Master Hindsight. 

[The Lock]

19 minutes ago, canuckistani said:

Again, my comment is directed at Alf, who is crusading the idea that Jake IS the best pick at his spot. We all know thats not true and we all know that even the greatest GM ever - Scotty Bowman- is a young six years old padowan to Jedi Master Hindsight. 

Where is Alf saying that he is the best pick at his spot? I went to look back to see if he actually said that as I was like "???" with your comment but I'm not seeing it.

 

If you need to put words in someone else's mouth in order to make an argument you've lost that argument as he didn't even say those words. There's no point that needs to be made beyond that by the opposing side. lol

Edited December 9, 2018 by The Lock

[WeneedLumme]

7 hours ago, canuckistani said:

 

You have low standards if you think a top six winger = 0.45 PPG in his 4th full season on a bottom-feeder team. 
He is BARELY a top six winger in our team, let alone a cup contender. The simple proof of this, is the fact that he is not a lock in the top six even in our team.  And i have no idea who you think is Fop, but thats more or less irrelevant. 

 

In hindsight, the easy pick for us would've been Pastarnak. Much, much better player than Virtanen and already at a point that i think is higher than Jake's peak ever will be. 

If you were willing to consider actual facts, last year 0.45 PPG was 57th among NHL right wingers or 56th among left wingers. And since there are 31 NHL teams, logic would suggest that there are 62 top six left wingers and 62 top six right wingers. And of course, Jake has a much more physical game than most of the wingers above him on the scoring list. But don't let real facts get in the way of your trolling.

[canuckistani]

Just now, WeneedLumme said:

If you were willing to consider actual facts, last year 0.45 PPG was 57th among NHL right wingers or 56th among left wingers. And since there are 31 NHL teams, logic would suggest that there are 62 top six left wingers and 62 top six right wingers. And of course, Jake has a much more physical game than most of the wingers above him on the scoring list. But don't let real facts get in the way of your trolling.

Pffft. Real fact is that he has not cemented a top six role in a bottom 10 team as of right now. 

 

And his PPG pace is for a third of the season. Lets see if he can keep it up near the end - which is very uncertain, given how streaky his point scoring has been.  He can have as much of a physical game as he wants - what matters are points and presence/performance in special teams. He has much work to do on both those scores.

 

[Yung1]

32 minutes ago, canuckistani said:

Pffft. Real fact is that he has not cemented a top six role in a bottom 10 team as of right now. 

 

And his PPG pace is for a third of the season. Lets see if he can keep it up near the end - which is very uncertain, given how streaky his point scoring has been.  He can have as much of a physical game as he wants - what matters are points and presence/performance in special teams. He has much work to do on both those scores.

 

Jake has actually been pretty consistent in his scoring since the last bit ig last season when a lot of people on here wetr commenting on how there seemed to a shift in his game. He's a young player who is projecting upwards and the sample size that supports the idea that he can produce as a top 6 winger is over half a season large taking into consideration last year and continues to grow and your negativity makes u sound like a silly boi

[canuckistani]

3 minutes ago, Yung1 said:

Jake has actually been pretty consistent in his scoring since the last bit ig last season when a lot of people on here wetr commenting on how there seemed to a shift in his game. He's a young player who is projecting upwards and the sample size that supports the idea that he can produce as a top 6 winger is over half a season large taking into consideration last year and continues to grow and your negativity makes u sound like a silly boi

Don't confuse my reticience in crowning the local boi as a lock and a future stalwart as negativity. I am saying things EXACTLY as they are - Jake is developing well ( which i already said), but he is YET to cement a spot in the top six in one of the weakest teams in the league and he has ways to go to be considered a successful NHL-er, let alone a stalwart. Fake platitudes and fandom is not in my nature, sorry. 

 

[-AJ-]

3 minutes ago, canuckistani said:

Don't confuse my reticience in crowning the local boi as a lock and a future stalwart as negativity. I am saying things EXACTLY as they are - Jake is developing well ( which i already said), but he is YET to cement a spot in the top six in one of the weakest teams in the league and he has ways to go to be considered a successful NHL-er, let alone a stalwart. Fake platitudes and fandom is not in my nature, sorry. 

 

I would agree that he hasn't cemented a top six role--as you say, he hasn't been producing at this level for terribly long yet. That said, it's clear right now he is producing at a fringe top 6 level, if not an elite 3rd line level, based on the stats @WeneedLumme provided. If he keeps producing at this level, he's a low-end 2nd line forward at least for sure.

[canuckistani]

1 minute ago, -AJ- said:

I would agree that he hasn't cemented a top six role--as you say, he hasn't been producing at this level for terribly long yet. That said, it's clear right now he is producing at a fringe top 6 level, if not an elite 3rd line level, based on the stats @WeneedLumme provided. If he keeps producing at this level, he's a low-end 2nd line forward at least for sure.

Yep. But he has to do it for at-least a season and half or two, to show that he can do it consistently. This is not a teenager - at this point in his career, issues such as work-ethic, acclamatizing to the speed of the game, the travel schedule, etc. are ALL things that should be under his belt, as a 4th year vet. People who are ready to crown him are still using rookie/sophomore standards IMO. 

He is progressing nicely and if he can pot 40-45 points in a season consistently, he will be a valued member of this squad. But he has to do it over a season and half or two. 

[ForsbergTheGreat]

46 minutes ago, WeneedLumme said:

If you were willing to consider actual facts, last year 0.45 PPG was 57th among NHL right wingers or 56th among left wingers. And since there are 31 NHL teams, logic would suggest that there are 62 top six left wingers and 62 top six right wingers. And of course, Jake has a much more physical game than most of the wingers above him on the scoring list. But don't let real facts get in the way of your trolling.

You do realize that NHL.com list the majority of players as center.  For example Motte, Schaller and Granlund are all listed as centers but realistically they all play wing for the majority of the season.  The NHL only has 121 RW listed to have played a game in the NHL this year.  Now if you do the math, 31 teams all with 4 RW means that there should be at least 124 RW listed and that not including any teams with injuries or call ups having played games. Now if you were trying to look at things objectively, you would included all forwards and not just the wingers.  In this case amongst all forwards that have played over 15 games this year Jakes .44 p/pg puts him at 193th overall tied with Eriksson.  Now using that math, 31 teams each having six top 6 forwards would mean there are 186 top 6 players leaving Jakes production on the out side, also if you're going to claim that Jakes production makes him a top 6 forward you'd have to make the same claim that Eriksson is also one today since he and Jake have the same production rate this year. 

 

Either way using p/pg as a way to justify that a player is or isn't a top 6 player is just plain dumb.  Production isn't just obtained at 5 on 5, many players play lower on the depth chart yet get key offensive ozone starts/pp opportunity that inflates their numbers despite them not being considered a top 6 player on their team aka Gagner in CBJ.  That's why p/pg don't even come close to telling the whole story, you'd be better off pulling a mixture between ES TOI by production to determine which top 6 forwards teams count on the most to win games.  But even that is open to bias opinions.  

 

Anyways lines aren't stagnant, they change on a game by game basis.  Some games Jake is asked to play in an energy role and other games he's put in more opportune situations, he's able to move up and down the line up, he can kill pk's, play pp and change the momentum of the game with a big hit.. which makes him a very valuable piece to our team, even more so than say someone like Goldy who by your standards (using only the p/pg metric) would be considered a more effective top 6 winger.

[The Lock]

1 hour ago, canuckistani said:

Don't confuse my reticience in crowning the local boi as a lock and a future stalwart as negativity. I am saying things EXACTLY as they are - Jake is developing well ( which i already said), but he is YET to cement a spot in the top six in one of the weakest teams in the league and he has ways to go to be considered a successful NHL-er, let alone a stalwart. Fake platitudes and fandom is not in my nature, sorry. 

 

No. You're saying your opinion. Your opinion is not all mighty and powerful. No one's opinion is. By saying this, you are effectively being the OPPOSITE of exact. If there's such a thing as fake platitudes and fandom then you have a fake sense of thinking you are above everyone else. In fact, it's IMPOSSIBLE to say thing exactly how they are. This isn't some exact science that you can equate in some way.

 

Not only that, but Lumme provided you with stats. You haven't. Therefore, Lumme is being exact and you are not. You're basically giving your opinion, which is fine, but it's not exact.

 

I don't think Jake's a lock entirely yet either as he's good for a lot of situations and not just in the top 6, but I can't stand arrogance where there's no need for it. 

Edited December 10, 2018 by The Lock

[Rob_Zepp]

9 hours ago, canuckistani said:

 

You have low standards if you think a top six winger = 0.45 PPG in his 4th full season on a bottom-feeder team. 
He is BARELY a top six winger in our team, let alone a cup contender. The simple proof of this, is the fact that he is not a lock in the top six even in our team.  And i have no idea who you think is Fop, but thats more or less irrelevant. 

 

In hindsight, the easy pick for us would've been Pastarnak. Much, much better player than Virtanen and already at a point that i think is higher than Jake's peak ever will be. 

You are fixated on two things - and neither makes sense.   This isn't a "bottom-feeder" team - when healthy, they are in the top 20 in the league easily.    Further, he is just 22 ..... 22!   For a big guy, his progression is nicely on track.    Tom Wilson is two years older and has had a career best 35 points (14 goals) but many think he is one of the more valuable members of the past Stanley Cup winning team.   

 

David Pastrňák (if you are going to troll with another player's name, use the right spelling at least) was passed over by 24 other picks and he was not rated in the top of the draft whereas Virtanen was.   "Easy pick for you" means you feel you are smarter about draft picks than the vast majority of NHL GMs and their amateur scouting staff.      

 

PS - are you not the guy who suggested that the Canucks trade EP40 last summer as he wouldn't make it as a center?

[canuckistani]

33 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

You are fixated on two things - and neither makes sense.   This isn't a "bottom-feeder" team - when healthy, they are in the top 20 in the league easily. 

I will believe it, when i see it. We are not the only team decimated by injury currently. So i am not fan of this injury bug argument. 

33 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

  Further, he is just 22 ..... 22!   For a big guy, his progression is nicely on track.    Tom Wilson is two years older and has had a career best 35 points (14 goals) but many think he is one of the more valuable members of the past Stanley Cup winning team.   

YES ! i said he is progressing decently. Tom Wilson is a nice & valuable member of the Stanley Cup winning team but he is NOT the bonafide top six player people are making Virtanen to be. 

 

33 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

 

David Pastrňák (if you are going to troll with another player's name, use the right spelling at least)

No thanks. i am going to spell it exactly how 99% of the sites spells it. Try your spelling BS elsewhere. 

33 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

was passed over by 24 other picks and he was not rated in the top of the draft whereas Virtanen was.   "Easy pick for you" means you feel you are smarter about draft picks than the vast majority of NHL GMs and their amateur scouting staff.      

 

PS - are you not the guy who suggested that the Canucks trade EP40 last summer as he wouldn't make it as a center?

No. 

My point was to show Alfie that Virtanen by no means is a good pick at #6 or the best pick as he likes to claim. Next time read before posting nonsense.

[canuckistani]

1 hour ago, The Lock said:

No. You're saying your opinion. Your opinion is not all mighty and powerful. No one's opinion is. By saying this, you are effectively being the OPPOSITE of exact. If there's such a thing as fake platitudes and fandom then you have a fake sense of thinking you are above everyone else. In fact, it's IMPOSSIBLE to say thing exactly how they are. This isn't some exact science that you can equate in some way.

 

Not only that, but Lumme provided you with stats. You haven't. Therefore, Lumme is being exact and you are not. You're basically giving your opinion, which is fine, but it's not exact.

 

I don't think Jake's a lock entirely yet either as he's good for a lot of situations and not just in the top 6, but I can't stand arrogance where there's no need for it. 

This is what hot air looks like. And i guess for non-science-educated people, throwing numbers around automatically makes it a more exact argument. LOL. 

[dpn1]

There is not an exact science to drafting.  Jimbo took Jake 6th overall, approximately  where he was expected to go.  Jim is building a team and drafts with the big picture in mind.  That means picking the kind of players he needs to build that successful team.  That means he doesn't necessarily take the best player available  but the one he needs to build the team he wants.  I think Jim has drafted in such a way that he could very well have all the players he needs to have a contender in 2 to 4 years without having to make a bunch of trades.  This is why I think Jake was taken where he was.  It is almost like Jim doesn't just consider the player but also how long he will take to develop.  Just a few thoughts.  

[WeneedLumme]

26 minutes ago, canuckistani said:

This is what hot air looks like. And i guess for non-science-educated people, throwing numbers around automatically makes it a more exact argument. LOL. 

You are the one who brought up 0.45 PPG as a number that indicates that Jake is not a top 6 winger. But now you don't want to talk numbers. OK.

 

Right now his point production is borderline top 6. But as I mentioned, his physicality is far superior to most of those above him in the scoring race. His speed, strength, fore and back checking ability, and shot are all extremely complementary to a couple of highly skilled players. 

 

When he steals the puck and turns it the other way, as he does far more often than anyone else on the team (leading the team in takeaways both this year and last year), that is a useful thing for a top 6 player to do. Or when forechecking he beats the defenseman to the puck and takes it away, or finishes his check with authority (throwing more hits than the next 2 highest hitting forwards combined last year) and causes the Dman to rush and turn over the puck, that works really well in the top 6 too.

 

He plays wherever the coach needs him to play. When he played on EP40's wing he did not look out of place. And he doesn't look out of place on Horvat's wing either. He is obviously already good enough to play in the top 6, and as anyone who has watched him play over the last year can see, he is still continuing to improve.

[-AJ-]

10 minutes ago, WeneedLumme said:

You are the one who brought up 0.45 PPG as a number that indicates that Jake is not a top 6 winger. But now you don't want to talk numbers. OK.

 

Right now his point production is borderline top 6. But as I mentioned, his physicality is far superior to most of those above him in the scoring race. His speed, strength, fore and back checking ability, and shot are all extremely complementary to a couple of highly skilled players. 

 

When he steals the puck and turns it the other way, as he does far more often than anyone else on the team (leading the team in takeaways both this year and last year), that is a useful thing for a top 6 player to do. Or when forechecking he beats the defenseman to the puck and takes it away, or finishes his check with authority (throwing more hits than the next 2 highest hitting forwards combined last year) and causes the Dman to rush and turn over the puck, that works really well in the top 6 too.

 

He plays wherever the coach needs him to play. When he played on EP40's wing he did not look out of place. And he doesn't look out of place on Horvat's wing either. He is obviously already good enough to play in the top 6, and as anyone who has watched him play over the last year can see, he is still continuing to improve.

In addition to his offense and physical play, in conjunction with what ForsbergTheGreat was saying:

• He has a less than 50% offensive zone start percentage (48.6%) 
• He has a very positive takeaway to giveaway ratio (19 to 9)
• He has modest CORSI for % (admittedly not amazing at 48.7%, but right around near his OZ start %)
• He's +3 on a generally pretty bad team
• He's 9th among Canuck forwards in PP time per game (1:29), meaning he's not heavily used on the PP, so that's not overly inflating his numbers
• He almost never penalty kills, so that helps his offense a bit

Basically, Jake is showing that he can be a 2nd line forward right now, but the question will be whether or not he can continue to do it over an extended period of time. I suppose we'll find out as this year continues on.

 

[canuckistani]

10 minutes ago, WeneedLumme said:

You are the one who brought up 0.45 PPG as a number that indicates that Jake is not a top 6 winger. But now you don't want to talk numbers. OK.

I said that a guy who is a 0.45 PPG for LESS THAN HALF a season, for first time in his career in 4 years, is NOT a top six material YET. Kindly quote the *entire* post. 

10 minutes ago, WeneedLumme said:

 

Right now his point production is borderline top 6. But as I mentioned, his physicality is far superior to most of those above him in the scoring race. His speed, strength, fore and back checking ability, and shot are all extremely complementary to a couple of highly skilled players. 

All this means diddly squat if he cannot produce at top six level, does not find spot regularly in a top six role in a bottom-feeder team and is a non-factor in either special teams. 

10 minutes ago, WeneedLumme said:

 

When he steals the puck and turns it the other way, as he does far more often than anyone else on the team (leading the team in takeaways both this year and last year), that is a useful thing for a top 6 player to do.

Correction. That is an useful thing for ANY skater to do. 

10 minutes ago, WeneedLumme said:

Or when forechecking he beats the defenseman to the puck and takes it away, or finishes his check with authority (throwing more hits than the next 2 highest hitting forwards combined last year) and causes the Dman to rush and turn over the puck, that works really well in the top 6 too.

Means squat. He does not play for a team that is leading the league or in the top half for hits delivered. Plus its such a whishy-washy stat in the first place. 

10 minutes ago, WeneedLumme said:

 

He plays wherever the coach needs him to play. When he played on EP40's wing he did not look out of place. And he doesn't look out of place on Horvat's wing either. He is obviously already good enough to play in the top 6, and as anyone who has watched him play over the last year can see, he is still continuing to improve.

Nobody looks out of place playing on EP's wing. If he was good enough to play in the top six, he'd be a REGULAR in the top six by now. Yet, this is the first time in his career he's had more than a few shifts in the top six and by no means has cemented his spot. 

Put it this way - if the Seattle draft was next year,  Virtanen is NOT an automatic guy you protect, unless you want to protect 'hope' ahead of performance ( Baer, Bo, Brock,Sutter,Beagle,Roussel are the top six protected, with the final slot coming down between Loui,Virtanen and Goldy). For a bottom quarter team, that is clear-cut indication that he is by no means a secure NHL-er. Jake is coming along nicely. But he has a long, long way to go before he is good enough NHL-er, nevermind the platitudes you want to throw at him. 

[FaninMex]

About the game yesterday, did you all notice how many reverse checks he doled out and put them on the ice. I am sure I remember 3 and 1 where it just kinda stopped the player in his tracks.

That heaviness sure had an effect on the game. It was great to see.

[smokes]

6 hours ago, canuckistani said:

Put it this way - if the Seattle draft was next year,  Virtanen is NOT an automatic guy you protect, unless you want to protect 'hope' ahead of performance ( Baer, Bo, Brock,Sutter,Beagle,Roussel are the top six protected, with the final slot coming down between Loui,Virtanen and Goldy). For a bottom quarter team, that is clear-cut indication that he is by no means a secure NHL-er. Jake is coming along nicely. But he has a long, long way to go before he is good enough NHL-er, nevermind the platitudes you want to throw at him. 

I wouldn't give up on him just yet. Power forwards tend to take more time to develop. I still remember when we gave up on Neely then look what he turned into. Or when karma came around and the Islanders sent Bertuzzi to us. Need to be patient with the power forwards. 

[Putgolzin]

6 hours ago, canuckistani said:

Put it this way - if the Seattle draft was next year,  Virtanen is NOT an automatic guy you protect, unless you want to protect 'hope' ahead of performance ( Baer, Bo, Brock,Sutter,Beagle,Roussel are the top six protected, with the final slot coming down between Loui,Virtanen and Goldy). For a bottom quarter team, that is clear-cut indication that he is by no means a secure NHL-er. Jake is coming along nicely. But he has a long, long way to go before he is good enough NHL-er, nevermind the platitudes you want to throw at him. 

I was going to try to defend some of what you're trying to say, but you lost me pretty bad here.

Sutter might be moderately debatable, maybe even Baer if we're really reaching. No chance in any universe a GM protects Beagle or Roussel before Virtanen.