J.I.A.H.N Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 (edited) Let's just put Jake's 2018 - 2019 Season in perspective Of ALL Right Wingers playing in the NHL last year Jake had the following stats...……….as per cap friendly 63rd over all in points 49th over all in goals 69th over all in points per game 89th over all in +/- 37th over all best in cost per point 31st over all best in cost per goal Of all Right Wingers in the league last year almost 2nd line offensive stats and 3rd line defensive stats Certainly, not something you throw out, or waive You can also keep in mind, that the Canucks were one of the lowest scoring teams in the league last year A couple more offensive Dmen and Jake reaps the benefits, IMO...and climbs further up the list 6 more goals and he is scoring at a 1st line RW rate Edited September 24, 2019 by janisahockeynut 1 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tre Mac Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 Hate to see him go and figure it out with another club, that would such a Canuck thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shad0w4life Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 14 hours ago, Mathew Barzal said: https://mobile.twitter.com/Sportsnet650/status/1176153903630389250?s=09 Virtanen's hanging on his last threads. Not sure he figures it out with us. He's too comfortable here. Goldobin played one game and was extremely defensively responsible, made a dive that stopped a 2 on 0, did he show up to camp without training in the off season as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mll Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 8 hours ago, janisahockeynut said: Let's just put Jake's 2018 - 2019 Season in perspective Of ALL Right Wingers playing in the NHL last year Jake had the following stats...……….as per cap friendly 63rd over all in points 49th over all in goals 69th over all in points per game 89th over all in +/- 37th over all best in cost per point 31st over all best in cost per goal Of all Right Wingers in the league last year almost 2nd line offensive stats and 3rd line defensive stats Certainly, not something you throw out, or waive You can also keep in mind, that the Canucks were one of the lowest scoring teams in the league last year A couple more offensive Dmen and Jake reaps the benefits, IMO...and climbs further up the list 6 more goals and he is scoring at a 1st line RW rate Only 94 RWs with more than 40 games - i.e. half a season. 4 RWs x 31 teams = 124. Some players are not listed at the position they play. There were 393 Fs with more than 40 games - so roughly 131 players per position. Looking at Fs and ignoring position - but proxy for 1st line would be up to 93, 2nd line 94 to 186, 3rd line 187 to 279 and 4th line 280 and beyond. 254th in points 166th in goals 242nd in points per game. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpn1 Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 I have trouble judging guys in the preseason. I like to wait for the first 10 games before I feel I can get a good idea of where a player is at. I don't have the skills to break down someones game to see the early signs of trouble. Also I have a tendency to get too attached to individual players over the team as a whole. It can get me in trouble sometimes. I will judge Jake\s game at that point. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKSR Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 Looking back, it feels like the Canucks may have rushed Virtanen a bit in terms of development. He had that one year in the AHL where he played 60+ games, and worked on a lot of things defensively, but the offensive side of his game was nothing to write home about (19pts in 65games). He probably would have benefited from one more full AHL season to gain some more on the offensive side of the puck before moving up to the big leagues. Had he spent another year down in the AHL and scored maybe 35-45pts in a full season, he probably would have transitioned better to the NHL. Oh well, whats done is done. Hope Virtanen takes another step forward this season... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Fivehole0 Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 19 minutes ago, HKSR said: Looking back, it feels like the Canucks may have rushed Virtanen a bit in terms of development. He had that one year in the AHL where he played 60+ games, and worked on a lot of things defensively, but the offensive side of his game was nothing to write home about (19pts in 65games). He probably would have benefited from one more full AHL season to gain some more on the offensive side of the puck before moving up to the big leagues. Had he spent another year down in the AHL and scored maybe 35-45pts in a full season, he probably would have transitioned better to the NHL. Oh well, whats done is done. Hope Virtanen takes another step forward this season... I feel like Virtanen would have done well to stay in the AHL until 23-24 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.I.A.H.N Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 2 hours ago, mll said: Only 94 RWs with more than 40 games - i.e. half a season. 4 RWs x 31 teams = 124. Some players are not listed at the position they play. There were 393 Fs with more than 40 games - so roughly 131 players per position. Looking at Fs and ignoring position - but proxy for 1st line would be up to 93, 2nd line 94 to 186, 3rd line 187 to 279 and 4th line 280 and beyond. 254th in points...……………...……….3rd line 166th in goals...………………………..2nd line 242nd in points per game...…………..3rd line Well, I don't agree with your thought process.....but It still makes him a 2-3 by your standards Albeit a more a 3rd liner, but that is what he is, isn't he I would also point out that if he was treated like a 2nd line winger, he would get more offensive zone starts on average which would push up his totals.... I am not saying Jake is anything more than a 3rd liner winger, but his stats are not below average for that position 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yung1 Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 (edited) 11 hours ago, janisahockeynut said: Let's just put Jake's 2018 - 2019 Season in perspective Of ALL Right Wingers playing in the NHL last year Jake had the following stats...……….as per cap friendly 63rd over all in points 49th over all in goals 69th over all in points per game 89th over all in +/- 37th over all best in cost per point 31st over all best in cost per goal Of all Right Wingers in the league last year almost 2nd line offensive stats and 3rd line defensive stats Certainly, not something you throw out, or waive You can also keep in mind, that the Canucks were one of the lowest scoring teams in the league last year A couple more offensive Dmen and Jake reaps the benefits, IMO...and climbs further up the list 6 more goals and he is scoring at a 1st line RW rate 3 hours ago, mll said: Only 94 RWs with more than 40 games - i.e. half a season. 4 RWs x 31 teams = 124. Some players are not listed at the position they play. There were 393 Fs with more than 40 games - so roughly 131 players per position. Looking at Fs and ignoring position - but proxy for 1st line would be up to 93, 2nd line 94 to 186, 3rd line 187 to 279 and 4th line 280 and beyond. 254th in points 166th in goals 242nd in points per game. I really don't like using this kind of logic to determine which line a player is capable of playing on. It totally ignores the fact that half the teams don't make the playoffs and thus do not have capable players playing on appropriate lines. If we were to use this logic, the correct way to do it is to say that the top 15 players for each position statistically are capable 1st line players. Anyone below is theoretically not a 1st line player on a playoff team, for example. Edited September 24, 2019 by Yung1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mll Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 55 minutes ago, janisahockeynut said: Well, I don't agree with your thought process.....but It still makes him a 2-3 by your standards Albeit a more a 3rd liner, but that is what he is, isn't he I would also point out that if he was treated like a 2nd line winger, he would get more offensive zone starts on average which would push up his totals.... I am not saying Jake is anything more than a 3rd liner winger, but his stats are not below average for that position Not my standards. Just pointing out that you are making his numbers look better than they actually are. Being ranked 63 on 124 players is not quite the same as being ranked 63 on 94 players. 18 minutes ago, Yung1 said: I really don't like using this kind of logic to determine which line a player is capable of playing on. It totally ignores the fact that half the teams don't make the playoffs and thus do not have capable players playing on appropriate lines. If we were to use this logic, the correct way to do it is to say that the top 15 players for each position statistically are capable 1st line players. Anyone below is theoretically not a 1st line player on a playoff team, for example. Those numbers can be misleading. Producing on a bad team is not the same as playing on a good team. Bad team might mean spending far more time defending and chasing the play so it's more challenging to produce. It's not that straight forward to say where a player would end up on a good team. For example skilled guys that like to play give-and-go will likely have more success playing with other skilled players who can make such plays. A goal scorer will likely do better if he gets to play with a playmaker rather than a C that can't set him up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillipBlunt Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 2 hours ago, dpn1 said: I have trouble judging guys in the preseason. I wish others had that same trouble. I concur, as nothing is set in stone yet, especially the roster. 2 hours ago, dpn1 said: I like to wait for the first 10 games before I feel I can get a good idea of where a player is at. I don't have the skills to break down someones game to see the early signs of trouble. Also I have a tendency to get too attached to individual players over the team as a whole. It can get me in trouble sometimes. I will judge Jake\s game at that point. That's truly the best practice. Once a player has settled into a line with regular linemates, and has time to play against other teams regular season rosters, the picture does become clearer. A mixture of statistical analysis and actually watching games is always the clearest picture. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borvat Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 (edited) 17 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said: I wish others had that same trouble. I concur, as nothing is set in stone yet, especially the roster. That's truly the best practice. Once a player has settled into a line with regular linemates, and has time to play against other teams regular season rosters, the picture does become clearer. A mixture of statistical analysis and actually watching games is always the clearest picture. Even though the Canuck's dressed what looks like the majority of their regular season roster last night it was pretty scrambly at times - offense and defense for both teams. Lots of offense but little flow or structure. Give this new team 10-20 games to gel. The issue is they sorta need to win a lot of those games to stay in the hunt. Hopefully they can win while putting it all together. There is definitely more skill and speed on this new roster. Fun to watch. I will say Myers looks like he may be a high risk high / reward defender. Great skater but does turn the puck over. Hopefully once he gets used to his partner and the system it improves a little. Won't be boring. Edited September 24, 2019 by Borvat 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillipBlunt Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 1 minute ago, Borvat said: Even though the Canuck's dressed what looks like the majority of their regular season roster last night it was pretty scrambly at times - offense and defense for both teams. Lots of offense but little flow or structure. Give this new team 10-20 games to gel. The issue is they sorta need to win a lot of those games to stay in the hunt. Hopefully they can win while putting it all together. There is definitely more skill and speed on this new roster. Fun to watch. I will say Myers looks like he may be a high risk high / reward defender. Great skater but does turn the puck over. Hopefully once he gets used to his partner and the system it improves a little. Won't be boring. Agreed, although I won't look you in the eye. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-AJ- Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 56 minutes ago, Yung1 said: I really don't like using this kind of logic to determine which line a player is capable of playing on. It totally ignores the fact that half the teams don't make the playoffs and thus do not have capable players playing on appropriate lines. If we were to use this logic, the correct way to do it is to say that the top 15 players for each position statistically are capable 1st line players. Anyone below is theoretically not a 1st line player on a playoff team, for example. Though then by that logic, Pettersson, McDavid and Draisaitl aren't 1st liners. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nucker 67 Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 Are there other players around Jake's age, who were also drafted fairly high but haven't reached expectations? Maybe a trade would be best, to give both players a change of scenery. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 2 minutes ago, NUCKER67 said: Are there other players around Jake's age, who were also drafted fairly high but haven't reached expectations? Maybe a trade would be best, to give both players a change of scenery. Pool Party needs to clear waivers now too. I'm not a Pool Party fan (I don't think he's an NHL player, and Jake is) but I'd think that's the level of player Jake would be traded for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yung1 Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 44 minutes ago, -AJ- said: Though then by that logic, Pettersson, McDavid and Draisaitl aren't 1st liners. McDavid and draisaitl were both top 5 in scoring league wide so idk what you're talking about there. EP was 26th in PPG amongst centers and was on a non-playoff team, which proves my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 2 minutes ago, Yung1 said: McDavid and draisaitl were both top 5 in scoring league wide so idk what you're talking about there. EP was 26th in PPG amongst centers and was on a non-playoff team, which proves my point. All players need to be compared to their cap cost. Is the team better with that player and their cap, or worse because the dollars paid to that one player make the overall team worse? I'd say 12.5 million for McDavid is a lot, and might be hurting the Oiler's chances to build around him. Draisatl, for his cap, just might be more valuable to the Oilers than McDavid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yung1 Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 6 minutes ago, Alflives said: All players need to be compared to their cap cost. Is the team better with that player and their cap, or worse because the dollars paid to that one player make the overall team worse? I'd say 12.5 million for McDavid is a lot, and might be hurting the Oiler's chances to build around him. Draisatl, for his cap, just might be more valuable to the Oilers than McDavid. good point. there are a lot of factors to consider when determining a player's value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borvat Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 (edited) Some of these rankings and picks did not age well, others did. Bit of a crap shoot really. Edited September 24, 2019 by Borvat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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